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| Kich United States. March 19 2012 15:29. Posts 338 | Profile # |
On March 19 2012 15:06 lorkac wrote:
I'm not defending women--I'm simply trying to point out why it is a thread like this can exist.
You very much are defending women whether it was intentional or not and they really don't need it. It's incredibly rare to find someone who legitimately objectifies women in the way you proposed, attraction isn't objectification. It's ok to find people attractive, it's ok to want to have sex with them, and you do that because of a need to feel wanted.
That guy's point is perfectly valid--it's fundamentally different whether your girlfriend experiments with a male or a female based on their sexual orientation. The reverse would absolutely be true and to think otherwise would be horribly naive. If it were a woman with a man who wanted to have sex with another woman to just experiment that same feeling of jealousy would intervene.
Attraction is a real thing, his point in that if she were to have sex with a woman she wouldn't feel anything is legitimate. She is with him, but she is attracted to men. How long have they been speaking? How long have they known each other?
For all he knows he's losing her--and there's nothing wrong with that feeling because it's not negative, or offensive. You get that way because you care about them and you are under the notion they care about you as well--and if they don't, that hurts.
To a straight person, having intercourse with the same sex doesn't provoke the feelings having intercourse with another sex would. Achieving orgasms is just achieving orgasms, but making love is something different, and people won't love what they can't love. Unless you'd like to try and legitimately claim that sexual preference is a choice, in that case there's the door, I'd rather not talk to you as I find that notion highly offensive. |
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 lorkac United States. March 19 2012 15:35. Posts 2297 | Profile Blog # |
On March 19 2012 15:06 Myrddraal wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 14:35 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:31 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:30 dAPhREAk wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:29 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:24 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:18 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:15 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:01 Djzapz wrote:
I'm sorry that I sound harsh--I know it seems like I'm painting you as this evil villain, you're not. It's not your fault that you think the way you do. But do you have a different more realistic explanation for why it is that you're jealous of men but not women? Why you'd be okay with your girlfriend having sex with a woman, but not be okay if she had sex with a man?
First let me make it clear - just because I don't have much of an explanation for why I think the way I do doesn't mean that your attempt to an explanation is automatically valid. I see women as my equals, in fact my girlfriend is currently more successful than me, and I have a lot of respect for her. She's in no way a toy, or my inferior in any way. In fact, quite the contrary in many cases, she's quite intimidating. If she were to have sex with women, it would just be sex. She doesn't like women. If she wanted to have sex with other men, I'd be worried - maybe I'm not good enough, maybe she's falling for him. It would be uncomfortable. I think this makes up for a large part of the reason why I'd be opposed to her having sex with men.
Take one step more. Would you be okay if your girl had sex with 15 women at once? Would you be okay with her having sex with 15 men at once? What is so different from the two situations? Is it the penis? Is it the cum?
I wouldn't be fine with either.
It's not a personal flaw, it is a societal flaw, one that everyone in western society is part of. And no, we never mean it maliciously, that's why the problem is societal, and not personal. We do not look down on women because we hate them, we look down on them because we are taught to look down on them.
I'm a good guy, I promise. If this plays any role in my position, it's very indirect.
As I've said, I'm not assuming you're maliciously thinking that women are less than you. You're revealing the very common and very western way of thinking about women. It's not specific to you, it's specific to the society you're part of. And of course you'll see your girlfriend as your equal. It's why you love her. It's when she's having sex with others that your discomfort happens. It's when she's having sex with other "women" that your societal habits emerge. It's when she's having sex with men that your societal jealousy churns inside you.
You literally accused me of thinking of women as objects. I really, really don't. And yes the way I think about women is affected by society, but I really don't think of women as objects, at all. Not me.
Is that why you'd be more jealous of your girlfriend having sex with men as opposed to women? Because you see them as equals?
Like I said, a large part of it is because if my gf asked me if she could have sex with another girl, I'd know it was meaningless to her. If she asked me if she could have sex with another dude, I'd feel threatened - she's a heterosexual. She could like him, or she could fall in love with him.
why would it be any more meaningful if its a man? either way she wants to have sex with someone who is not you.
I'd be fine with her wanting to experiment with a person for who she has no feelings. I believe she can have this sort of sex with a woman. I don't know that she can have this with a man. It's like that, shes "straight".
Why can't she be experimenting with a man or a woman? Or do you believe that a man can convince her to love him more than you, but a woman can't? An experiment is an experiment whether its a guy or a girl.
Gotta agree with Djzapz here, if you know your partner well enough to have faith that they are straight, then it makes a huge difference whether they would be experimenting with a guy or a girl, obviously if you had only just started going out, you wouldn't feel safe making that assumption. Either way it's his opinion and I don't think it is based on equality between men and women but a healthy relationship with his partner. If she is experimenting with a girl they both gain something (assuming his partner wishes to do so) but if she experiments with a guy then she gains something out of it and he does not (because of his previously stated reasons). Of course the roles could be reversed and his partner might not like the idea of sharing him with another girl in which case obviously they would not do anything anyway, seems equal to me.
The problem is that it shouldn't matter whether or not the experiment is with a girl or guy.
If you don't trust them to be able to "just" experiment, then it wouldn't matter what sex the person is. If you do trust that your partner *can* experiment, then it shouldn't matter what sex the person is. Either you trust that they can remain experimental, or you can't trust that they remain experimental. To think that the choice to experiment is not in your partner and is instead within the sex of the person your partner is having sex with--that should be a strange way of seeing the world. Whether or not your partner leaves you for the person they have sex with is their choice, it is not decided by whether or not the other person is male/female.
That is the problem with the "it makes me uncomfortable" mindset. Because what they mean is that they are scared that the other guy can convince their girl to leave him.
What they don't realize is that it, in essence, assumes your girlfriend has no say in whether or not she leaves you or not.
It assumes that only the other guy is able to steal your girl.
It assumes that your girlfriend is only strong enough to withstand the whiles of other girls, but isn't strong enough to withstand the whiles of other men.
I'm not saying it's weird or wrong that he is less trusting of other men--I'm saying that it's perfectly normal and culturally taught for him to think that only other men have the ability to control the mind of his girlfriend enough to think that the deciding factor on whether she leaves him or not is how much of the other guy's penis is inside her.
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| | By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography |
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| Iplaythings Denmark. March 19 2012 15:42. Posts 7072 | Profile Blog # |
I donnu... I know I simply lost interest in most girls after coming in a relationship with my current GF.. and I think I'd have to put that on a maybe and who it is, threesome would be awesome but that's unlikely.
Though if for some reason that I could be certain that it would be sex and just sex with that girl, I'd give it a second thought. Though I think that's kinda irrelevant to me becase as far as I know she's kinda as straight as can be. You never know though  |
| | In the woods, there lurks.. |
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| Kich United States. March 19 2012 15:43. Posts 338 | Profile # |
On March 19 2012 15:35 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 15:06 Myrddraal wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:35 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:31 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:30 dAPhREAk wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:29 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:24 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:18 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:15 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:01 Djzapz wrote:
[quote]
First let me make it clear - just because I don't have much of an explanation for why I think the way I do doesn't mean that your attempt to an explanation is automatically valid. I see women as my equals, in fact my girlfriend is currently more successful than me, and I have a lot of respect for her. She's in no way a toy, or my inferior in any way. In fact, quite the contrary in many cases, she's quite intimidating.
If she were to have sex with women, it would just be sex. She doesn't like women. If she wanted to have sex with other men, I'd be worried - maybe I'm not good enough, maybe she's falling for him. It would be uncomfortable. I think this makes up for a large part of the reason why I'd be opposed to her having sex with men.
[quote]
I wouldn't be fine with either.
[quote]
I'm a good guy, I promise. If this plays any role in my position, it's very indirect.
As I've said, I'm not assuming you're maliciously thinking that women are less than you. You're revealing the very common and very western way of thinking about women. It's not specific to you, it's specific to the society you're part of. And of course you'll see your girlfriend as your equal. It's why you love her. It's when she's having sex with others that your discomfort happens. It's when she's having sex with other "women" that your societal habits emerge. It's when she's having sex with men that your societal jealousy churns inside you.
You literally accused me of thinking of women as objects. I really, really don't. And yes the way I think about women is affected by society, but I really don't think of women as objects, at all. Not me.
Is that why you'd be more jealous of your girlfriend having sex with men as opposed to women? Because you see them as equals?
Like I said, a large part of it is because if my gf asked me if she could have sex with another girl, I'd know it was meaningless to her. If she asked me if she could have sex with another dude, I'd feel threatened - she's a heterosexual. She could like him, or she could fall in love with him.
why would it be any more meaningful if its a man? either way she wants to have sex with someone who is not you.
I'd be fine with her wanting to experiment with a person for who she has no feelings. I believe she can have this sort of sex with a woman. I don't know that she can have this with a man. It's like that, shes "straight".
Why can't she be experimenting with a man or a woman? Or do you believe that a man can convince her to love him more than you, but a woman can't? An experiment is an experiment whether its a guy or a girl.
Gotta agree with Djzapz here, if you know your partner well enough to have faith that they are straight, then it makes a huge difference whether they would be experimenting with a guy or a girl, obviously if you had only just started going out, you wouldn't feel safe making that assumption. Either way it's his opinion and I don't think it is based on equality between men and women but a healthy relationship with his partner. If she is experimenting with a girl they both gain something (assuming his partner wishes to do so) but if she experiments with a guy then she gains something out of it and he does not (because of his previously stated reasons). Of course the roles could be reversed and his partner might not like the idea of sharing him with another girl in which case obviously they would not do anything anyway, seems equal to me.
The problem is that it shouldn't matter whether or not the experiment is with a girl or guy. If you don't trust them to be able to "just" experiment, then it wouldn't matter what sex the person is. If you do trust that your partner *can* experiment, then it shouldn't matter what sex the person is. Either you trust that they can remain experimental, or you can't trust that they remain experimental. To think that the choice to experiment is not in your partner and is instead within the sex of the person your partner is having sex with--that should be a strange way of seeing the world. Whether or not your partner leaves you for the person they have sex with is their choice, it is not decided by whether or not the other person is male/female. That is the problem with the "it makes me uncomfortable" mindset. Because what they mean is that they are scared that the other guy can convince their girl to leave him. What they don't realize is that it, in essence, assumes your girlfriend has no say in whether or not she leaves you or not. It assumes that only the other guy is able to steal your girl. It assumes that your girlfriend is only strong enough to withstand the whiles of other girls, but isn't strong enough to withstand the whiles of other men. I'm not saying it's weird or wrong that he is less trusting of other men--I'm saying that it's perfectly normal and culturally taught for him to think that only other men have the ability to control the mind of his girlfriend enough to think that the deciding factor on whether she leaves him or not is how much of the other guy's penis is inside her.
No, it doesn't assume that, and you're horribly misunderstanding this whole concept. What should or should not matter in your androgynous utopia where for some reason feelings seem to be completely detached from the equation isn't reality and doesn't actually matter. |
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| Iplaythings Denmark. March 19 2012 15:53. Posts 7072 | Profile Blog # |
On March 19 2012 15:35 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 15:06 Myrddraal wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:35 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:31 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:30 dAPhREAk wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:29 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:24 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:18 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:15 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:01 Djzapz wrote:
[quote]
First let me make it clear - just because I don't have much of an explanation for why I think the way I do doesn't mean that your attempt to an explanation is automatically valid. I see women as my equals, in fact my girlfriend is currently more successful than me, and I have a lot of respect for her. She's in no way a toy, or my inferior in any way. In fact, quite the contrary in many cases, she's quite intimidating.
If she were to have sex with women, it would just be sex. She doesn't like women. If she wanted to have sex with other men, I'd be worried - maybe I'm not good enough, maybe she's falling for him. It would be uncomfortable. I think this makes up for a large part of the reason why I'd be opposed to her having sex with men.
[quote]
I wouldn't be fine with either.
[quote]
I'm a good guy, I promise. If this plays any role in my position, it's very indirect.
As I've said, I'm not assuming you're maliciously thinking that women are less than you. You're revealing the very common and very western way of thinking about women. It's not specific to you, it's specific to the society you're part of. And of course you'll see your girlfriend as your equal. It's why you love her. It's when she's having sex with others that your discomfort happens. It's when she's having sex with other "women" that your societal habits emerge. It's when she's having sex with men that your societal jealousy churns inside you.
You literally accused me of thinking of women as objects. I really, really don't. And yes the way I think about women is affected by society, but I really don't think of women as objects, at all. Not me.
Is that why you'd be more jealous of your girlfriend having sex with men as opposed to women? Because you see them as equals?
Like I said, a large part of it is because if my gf asked me if she could have sex with another girl, I'd know it was meaningless to her. If she asked me if she could have sex with another dude, I'd feel threatened - she's a heterosexual. She could like him, or she could fall in love with him.
why would it be any more meaningful if its a man? either way she wants to have sex with someone who is not you.
I'd be fine with her wanting to experiment with a person for who she has no feelings. I believe she can have this sort of sex with a woman. I don't know that she can have this with a man. It's like that, shes "straight".
Why can't she be experimenting with a man or a woman? Or do you believe that a man can convince her to love him more than you, but a woman can't? An experiment is an experiment whether its a guy or a girl.
Gotta agree with Djzapz here, if you know your partner well enough to have faith that they are straight, then it makes a huge difference whether they would be experimenting with a guy or a girl, obviously if you had only just started going out, you wouldn't feel safe making that assumption. Either way it's his opinion and I don't think it is based on equality between men and women but a healthy relationship with his partner. If she is experimenting with a girl they both gain something (assuming his partner wishes to do so) but if she experiments with a guy then she gains something out of it and he does not (because of his previously stated reasons). Of course the roles could be reversed and his partner might not like the idea of sharing him with another girl in which case obviously they would not do anything anyway, seems equal to me.
The problem is that it shouldn't matter whether or not the experiment is with a girl or guy. If you don't trust them to be able to "just" experiment, then it wouldn't matter what sex the person is. If you do trust that your partner *can* experiment, then it shouldn't matter what sex the person is. Either you trust that they can remain experimental, or you can't trust that they remain experimental. To think that the choice to experiment is not in your partner and is instead within the sex of the person your partner is having sex with--that should be a strange way of seeing the world. Whether or not your partner leaves you for the person they have sex with is their choice, it is not decided by whether or not the other person is male/female. That is the problem with the "it makes me uncomfortable" mindset. Because what they mean is that they are scared that the other guy can convince their girl to leave him. What they don't realize is that it, in essence, assumes your girlfriend has no say in whether or not she leaves you or not. It assumes that only the other guy is able to steal your girl. It assumes that your girlfriend is only strong enough to withstand the whiles of other girls, but isn't strong enough to withstand the whiles of other men. I'm not saying it's weird or wrong that he is less trusting of other men--I'm saying that it's perfectly normal and culturally taught for him to think that only other men have the ability to control the mind of his girlfriend enough to think that the deciding factor on whether she leaves him or not is how much of the other guy's penis is inside her.
It seems as if you're incapable of understand his view of homosexual experimentation.
To him (if I got this right) his GF having sex with a boy would indicate that she's looking for a new partner because she's interested in men
However, his GF having sex with a girl would be different, assuming that she or the other girl isn't in the closet, because she's interested in men so she would only like to try a sexy time with a girl once, for the sake of curiousity and experimenting which isn't uncommon, I've considered it myself and It's not unlikely that I would try it myself (I'm male though) |
| | In the woods, there lurks.. |
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| lorkac United States. March 19 2012 15:58. Posts 2297 | Profile Blog # |
On March 19 2012 15:29 Kich wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 15:06 lorkac wrote:
I'm not defending women--I'm simply trying to point out why it is a thread like this can exist.
You very much are defending women whether it was intentional or not and they really don't need it. It's incredibly rare to find someone who legitimately objectifies women in the way you proposed, attraction isn't objectification. It's ok to find people attractive, it's ok to want to have sex with them, and you do that because of a need to feel wanted. That guy's point is perfectly valid--it's fundamentally different whether your girlfriend experiments with a male or a female based on their sexual orientation. The reverse would absolutely be true and to think otherwise would be horribly naive. If it were a woman with a man who wanted to have sex with another woman to just experiment that same feeling of jealousy would intervene. Attraction is a real thing, his point in that if she were to have sex with a woman she wouldn't feel anything is legitimate. She is with him, but she is attracted to men. How long have they been speaking? How long have they known each other? For all he knows he's losing her--and there's nothing wrong with that feeling because it's not negative, or offensive. You get that way because you care about them and you are under the notion they care about you as well--and if they don't, that hurts. To a straight person, having intercourse with the same sex doesn't provoke the feelings having intercourse with another sex would. Achieving orgasms is just achieving orgasms, but making love is something different, and people won't love what they can't love. Unless you'd like to try and legitimately claim that sexual preference is a choice, in that case there's the door, I'd rather not talk to you as I find that notion highly offensive.
A.) I'm not defending women--I'm simply pointing out how silly it is to think that a girl will leave you just because someone puts his dick inside her. If you don't trust her, then you should mistrust who she talks to--not who she's fucking. If you trust her--then you should trust that when she says she wants to have sex with someone it is because she wants to have sex with someone and not because she's secretly trying to leave you. (Which she could do out right by simply leaving you, and then having sex with someone else without any permission what-so-ever)
B.) I have never suggested people don't get attracted. Ever. I've said whoever your partner wants to have sex with is his/her choice. It is not your choice, nor is it the choice of the person she's trying to have sex with. When your partner wants to have sex with someone else, it's because she wants to have sex with that person. If she wants to cheat on you and leave you for whatever reason--it's because it is his/her choice and was not the choice of the other person.
We live in a society where it is weird to think of two straight guys making out and jerking each other off--but it is sexy to think of two straight girls making out and getting each other off. We think this way because it is weird to think of guys as sexual objects to be chased after and desired, but it seems normal to want to chase after and fuck women.
So when it comes to relationships. It seems normal that your straight girlfriend would experiment with women. When your girlfriend says to you "hey, I want to have sex with girls" you don't automatically think "Oh, she must be bisexual/homosexual, maybe she and I should talk about the possibility that she's not straight and that it's weird how much I did no truly understand her as well as I did." Instead, people think "Oh she's just experimenting." And they think that because our society tells us that it is okay and normal to want to chase after and fuck girls--that it is normal and even expected that straight girls should want to chase after and fuck girls just for the sake of doing it (ie experiment with it).
But when she comes over to ask be bent over a kitchen counter while some guy pile drives her into an orgasm so long she needs an oxygen tank to catch her breath afterwards, suddenly we think it must be because the guy is somehow winning her over. Because it can't be that she simply wants to chase after the man as a sexual object that she wants orgasms from, it must be because emotions are involved. You don't think automatically think "Oh, she wants to experiment with other men" because we are societally trained to not think of men as things we experiment with sexually.
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| | By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography |
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| MrMercuG Netherlands. March 19 2012 16:05. Posts 1592 | Profile # | |
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| Kich United States. March 19 2012 16:06. Posts 338 | Profile # |
On March 19 2012 15:53 Iplaythings wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 15:35 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:06 Myrddraal wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:35 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:31 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:30 dAPhREAk wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:29 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:24 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:18 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:15 lorkac wrote:
[quote]
As I've said, I'm not assuming you're maliciously thinking that women are less than you. You're revealing the very common and very western way of thinking about women. It's not specific to you, it's specific to the society you're part of.
And of course you'll see your girlfriend as your equal. It's why you love her. It's when she's having sex with others that your discomfort happens. It's when she's having sex with other "women" that your societal habits emerge. It's when she's having sex with men that your societal jealousy churns inside you.
You literally accused me of thinking of women as objects. I really, really don't. And yes the way I think about women is affected by society, but I really don't think of women as objects, at all. Not me.
Is that why you'd be more jealous of your girlfriend having sex with men as opposed to women? Because you see them as equals?
Like I said, a large part of it is because if my gf asked me if she could have sex with another girl, I'd know it was meaningless to her. If she asked me if she could have sex with another dude, I'd feel threatened - she's a heterosexual. She could like him, or she could fall in love with him.
why would it be any more meaningful if its a man? either way she wants to have sex with someone who is not you.
I'd be fine with her wanting to experiment with a person for who she has no feelings. I believe she can have this sort of sex with a woman. I don't know that she can have this with a man. It's like that, shes "straight".
Why can't she be experimenting with a man or a woman? Or do you believe that a man can convince her to love him more than you, but a woman can't? An experiment is an experiment whether its a guy or a girl.
Gotta agree with Djzapz here, if you know your partner well enough to have faith that they are straight, then it makes a huge difference whether they would be experimenting with a guy or a girl, obviously if you had only just started going out, you wouldn't feel safe making that assumption. Either way it's his opinion and I don't think it is based on equality between men and women but a healthy relationship with his partner. If she is experimenting with a girl they both gain something (assuming his partner wishes to do so) but if she experiments with a guy then she gains something out of it and he does not (because of his previously stated reasons). Of course the roles could be reversed and his partner might not like the idea of sharing him with another girl in which case obviously they would not do anything anyway, seems equal to me.
The problem is that it shouldn't matter whether or not the experiment is with a girl or guy. If you don't trust them to be able to "just" experiment, then it wouldn't matter what sex the person is. If you do trust that your partner *can* experiment, then it shouldn't matter what sex the person is. Either you trust that they can remain experimental, or you can't trust that they remain experimental. To think that the choice to experiment is not in your partner and is instead within the sex of the person your partner is having sex with--that should be a strange way of seeing the world. Whether or not your partner leaves you for the person they have sex with is their choice, it is not decided by whether or not the other person is male/female. That is the problem with the "it makes me uncomfortable" mindset. Because what they mean is that they are scared that the other guy can convince their girl to leave him. What they don't realize is that it, in essence, assumes your girlfriend has no say in whether or not she leaves you or not. It assumes that only the other guy is able to steal your girl. It assumes that your girlfriend is only strong enough to withstand the whiles of other girls, but isn't strong enough to withstand the whiles of other men. I'm not saying it's weird or wrong that he is less trusting of other men--I'm saying that it's perfectly normal and culturally taught for him to think that only other men have the ability to control the mind of his girlfriend enough to think that the deciding factor on whether she leaves him or not is how much of the other guy's penis is inside her.
It seems as if you're incapable of understand his view of homosexual experimentation. To him (if I got this right) his GF having sex with a boy would indicate that she's looking for a new partner because she's interested in men However, his GF having sex with a girl would be different, assuming that she or the other girl isn't in the closet, because she's interested in men so she would only like to try a sexy time with a girl once, for the sake of curiousity and experimenting which isn't uncommon, I've considered it myself and It's not unlikely that I would try it myself (I'm male though)
At a really basic level, yeah, pretty much this. Contrary to lorkac's belief, we don't walk around and feel attracted to people in a vacuum where their sex has virtually no impact. People are born with an attraction to a given sex, be it their own or the opposite. He spins a negative connotation towards western partnership culture, but in reality our culture for relationships is no better or worse than any other and certainly doesn't have one side in favor of the other.
His opinion, which is why I'm frustrated, is wholly opposing the male perspective yet does nothing to address the identical female perspective. A straight male doesn't want his girlfriend having sex with another guy, a straight female doesn't want her boyfriend having sex with another girl, and a gay male / female doesn't want their boy / girlfriend having sex with another guy / girl. There is nothing objectifying about any of that because that's not what that is and trying to argue otherwise is a serious lack of comprehension of relationships and gender in general.
It's white-knight bullshit that paints everyone in a shitty light for the sake of trying to make natural tendencies sound bad. I can barely get over how horribly ignorant these points are.
Your straight girlfriend has experience with having sex with males, she does not have experience having sex with females, is that clear enough lorkac? |
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| Kich United States. March 19 2012 16:08. Posts 338 | Profile # |
On March 19 2012 15:58 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 15:29 Kich wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:06 lorkac wrote:
I'm not defending women--I'm simply trying to point out why it is a thread like this can exist.
You very much are defending women whether it was intentional or not and they really don't need it. It's incredibly rare to find someone who legitimately objectifies women in the way you proposed, attraction isn't objectification. It's ok to find people attractive, it's ok to want to have sex with them, and you do that because of a need to feel wanted. That guy's point is perfectly valid--it's fundamentally different whether your girlfriend experiments with a male or a female based on their sexual orientation. The reverse would absolutely be true and to think otherwise would be horribly naive. If it were a woman with a man who wanted to have sex with another woman to just experiment that same feeling of jealousy would intervene. Attraction is a real thing, his point in that if she were to have sex with a woman she wouldn't feel anything is legitimate. She is with him, but she is attracted to men. How long have they been speaking? How long have they known each other? For all he knows he's losing her--and there's nothing wrong with that feeling because it's not negative, or offensive. You get that way because you care about them and you are under the notion they care about you as well--and if they don't, that hurts. To a straight person, having intercourse with the same sex doesn't provoke the feelings having intercourse with another sex would. Achieving orgasms is just achieving orgasms, but making love is something different, and people won't love what they can't love. Unless you'd like to try and legitimately claim that sexual preference is a choice, in that case there's the door, I'd rather not talk to you as I find that notion highly offensive.
A.) I'm not defending women--I'm simply pointing out how silly it is to think that a girl will leave you just because someone puts his dick inside her. If you don't trust her, then you should mistrust who she talks to--not who she's fucking. If you trust her--then you should trust that when she says she wants to have sex with someone it is because she wants to have sex with someone and not because she's secretly trying to leave you. (Which she could do out right by simply leaving you, and then having sex with someone else without any permission what-so-ever) B.) I have never suggested people don't get attracted. Ever. I've said whoever your partner wants to have sex with is his/her choice. It is not your choice, nor is it the choice of the person she's trying to have sex with. When your partner wants to have sex with someone else, it's because she wants to have sex with that person. If she wants to cheat on you and leave you for whatever reason--it's because it is his/her choice and was not the choice of the other person. We live in a society where it is weird to think of two straight guys making out and jerking each other off--but it is sexy to think of two straight girls making out and getting each other off. We think this way because it is weird to think of guys as sexual objects to be chased after and desired, but it seems normal to want to chase after and fuck women. So when it comes to relationships. It seems normal that your straight girlfriend would experiment with women. When your girlfriend says to you "hey, I want to have sex with girls" you don't automatically think "Oh, she must be bisexual/homosexual, maybe she and I should talk about the possibility that she's not straight and that it's weird how much I did no truly understand her as well as I did." Instead, people think "Oh she's just experimenting." And they think that because our society tells us that it is okay and normal to want to chase after and fuck girls--that it is normal and even expected that straight girls should want to chase after and fuck girls just for the sake of doing it (ie experiment with it). But when she comes over to ask be bent over a kitchen counter while some guy pile drives her into an orgasm so long she needs an oxygen tank to catch her breath afterwards, suddenly we think it must be because the guy is somehow winning her over. Because it can't be that she simply wants to chase after the man as a sexual object that she wants orgasms from, it must be because emotions are involved. You don't think automatically think "Oh, she wants to experiment with other men" because we are societally trained to not think of men as things we experiment with sexually.
No, you live in a society where that's what you think specifically guys think and you can rightly go fuck yourself for generalizing.
I don't even agree with what was posited originally, you won't lose your girlfriend if she sleeps with another guy, but the underlying point of concern is valid because it's not very experimental when she has experience with it. You are positing that sexual orientation isn't a real thing by stating that a straight woman could fall in love with another woman, if she was straight, she wouldn't, and that's all that he was trying to point out.
The possibility (holy fuck I can't believe how hard this is to get across) for your straight girlfriend to fall in love with another man is both real and possible because no one is a perfect match for each other and you don't want that to happen because you fucking love her, care about her, and you are under the pretense that she feels the same way about you if you are in a relationship with her, because if she were to leave you it would invalidate your relationship. It would mean that she found someone that she felt even more strongly for, and she's breaking her bond with you, you're no longer together, and the fear of losing her drives that jealousy because being with her makes you happy, and you don't want to lose that happiness.
And you know what's pretty fucking amazing? None of that has anything to do with sex, what the fuck is wrong with you?Last edit: 2012-03-19 16:18:56 |
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| lorkac United States. March 19 2012 16:10. Posts 2297 | Profile Blog # |
On March 19 2012 15:43 Kich wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 15:35 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:06 Myrddraal wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:35 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:31 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:30 dAPhREAk wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:29 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:24 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:18 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:15 lorkac wrote:
[quote]
As I've said, I'm not assuming you're maliciously thinking that women are less than you. You're revealing the very common and very western way of thinking about women. It's not specific to you, it's specific to the society you're part of.
And of course you'll see your girlfriend as your equal. It's why you love her. It's when she's having sex with others that your discomfort happens. It's when she's having sex with other "women" that your societal habits emerge. It's when she's having sex with men that your societal jealousy churns inside you.
You literally accused me of thinking of women as objects. I really, really don't. And yes the way I think about women is affected by society, but I really don't think of women as objects, at all. Not me.
Is that why you'd be more jealous of your girlfriend having sex with men as opposed to women? Because you see them as equals?
Like I said, a large part of it is because if my gf asked me if she could have sex with another girl, I'd know it was meaningless to her. If she asked me if she could have sex with another dude, I'd feel threatened - she's a heterosexual. She could like him, or she could fall in love with him.
why would it be any more meaningful if its a man? either way she wants to have sex with someone who is not you.
I'd be fine with her wanting to experiment with a person for who she has no feelings. I believe she can have this sort of sex with a woman. I don't know that she can have this with a man. It's like that, shes "straight".
Why can't she be experimenting with a man or a woman? Or do you believe that a man can convince her to love him more than you, but a woman can't? An experiment is an experiment whether its a guy or a girl.
Gotta agree with Djzapz here, if you know your partner well enough to have faith that they are straight, then it makes a huge difference whether they would be experimenting with a guy or a girl, obviously if you had only just started going out, you wouldn't feel safe making that assumption. Either way it's his opinion and I don't think it is based on equality between men and women but a healthy relationship with his partner. If she is experimenting with a girl they both gain something (assuming his partner wishes to do so) but if she experiments with a guy then she gains something out of it and he does not (because of his previously stated reasons). Of course the roles could be reversed and his partner might not like the idea of sharing him with another girl in which case obviously they would not do anything anyway, seems equal to me.
The problem is that it shouldn't matter whether or not the experiment is with a girl or guy. If you don't trust them to be able to "just" experiment, then it wouldn't matter what sex the person is. If you do trust that your partner *can* experiment, then it shouldn't matter what sex the person is. Either you trust that they can remain experimental, or you can't trust that they remain experimental. To think that the choice to experiment is not in your partner and is instead within the sex of the person your partner is having sex with--that should be a strange way of seeing the world. Whether or not your partner leaves you for the person they have sex with is their choice, it is not decided by whether or not the other person is male/female. That is the problem with the "it makes me uncomfortable" mindset. Because what they mean is that they are scared that the other guy can convince their girl to leave him. What they don't realize is that it, in essence, assumes your girlfriend has no say in whether or not she leaves you or not. It assumes that only the other guy is able to steal your girl. It assumes that your girlfriend is only strong enough to withstand the whiles of other girls, but isn't strong enough to withstand the whiles of other men. I'm not saying it's weird or wrong that he is less trusting of other men--I'm saying that it's perfectly normal and culturally taught for him to think that only other men have the ability to control the mind of his girlfriend enough to think that the deciding factor on whether she leaves him or not is how much of the other guy's penis is inside her.
No, it doesn't assume that, and you're horribly misunderstanding this whole concept. What should or should not matter in your androgynous utopia where for some reason feelings seem to be completely detached from the equation isn't reality and doesn't actually matter.
It's not an androgynous utopia.
Since I trust my girlfriend, I trust her when she says that she only wants to experiment.
I don't assume that it's some secret plot to leave me, nor do I think that it is some trick the other guy was hatching to try to steal my girlfriend. If she wanted to leave me, she would. If she wants to experiment, it's her right to have that urge.
For example, if she asked if it was okay if she had anal sex with a horse, would that be okay with you just because there's no way she'd run off with the horse, that it was just an "experiment?" Or would it be weird, and strange, and you don't really want to see your girlfriend being sodomized by a horse? Would it be better if she were sodomized by a man instead? What if she would rather be sodomized by a girl wearing a strap on? What would be the differences in any of those cases if it truly was just about experimentation vs secretly leaving you? Because she's even less likely to run away with the horse unless you're just that bad a conversationalist.
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| | By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography |
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| lorkac United States. March 19 2012 16:14. Posts 2297 | Profile Blog # |
On March 19 2012 16:08 Kich wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 15:58 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:29 Kich wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:06 lorkac wrote:
I'm not defending women--I'm simply trying to point out why it is a thread like this can exist.
You very much are defending women whether it was intentional or not and they really don't need it. It's incredibly rare to find someone who legitimately objectifies women in the way you proposed, attraction isn't objectification. It's ok to find people attractive, it's ok to want to have sex with them, and you do that because of a need to feel wanted. That guy's point is perfectly valid--it's fundamentally different whether your girlfriend experiments with a male or a female based on their sexual orientation. The reverse would absolutely be true and to think otherwise would be horribly naive. If it were a woman with a man who wanted to have sex with another woman to just experiment that same feeling of jealousy would intervene. Attraction is a real thing, his point in that if she were to have sex with a woman she wouldn't feel anything is legitimate. She is with him, but she is attracted to men. How long have they been speaking? How long have they known each other? For all he knows he's losing her--and there's nothing wrong with that feeling because it's not negative, or offensive. You get that way because you care about them and you are under the notion they care about you as well--and if they don't, that hurts. To a straight person, having intercourse with the same sex doesn't provoke the feelings having intercourse with another sex would. Achieving orgasms is just achieving orgasms, but making love is something different, and people won't love what they can't love. Unless you'd like to try and legitimately claim that sexual preference is a choice, in that case there's the door, I'd rather not talk to you as I find that notion highly offensive.
A.) I'm not defending women--I'm simply pointing out how silly it is to think that a girl will leave you just because someone puts his dick inside her. If you don't trust her, then you should mistrust who she talks to--not who she's fucking. If you trust her--then you should trust that when she says she wants to have sex with someone it is because she wants to have sex with someone and not because she's secretly trying to leave you. (Which she could do out right by simply leaving you, and then having sex with someone else without any permission what-so-ever) B.) I have never suggested people don't get attracted. Ever. I've said whoever your partner wants to have sex with is his/her choice. It is not your choice, nor is it the choice of the person she's trying to have sex with. When your partner wants to have sex with someone else, it's because she wants to have sex with that person. If she wants to cheat on you and leave you for whatever reason--it's because it is his/her choice and was not the choice of the other person. We live in a society where it is weird to think of two straight guys making out and jerking each other off--but it is sexy to think of two straight girls making out and getting each other off. We think this way because it is weird to think of guys as sexual objects to be chased after and desired, but it seems normal to want to chase after and fuck women. So when it comes to relationships. It seems normal that your straight girlfriend would experiment with women. When your girlfriend says to you "hey, I want to have sex with girls" you don't automatically think "Oh, she must be bisexual/homosexual, maybe she and I should talk about the possibility that she's not straight and that it's weird how much I did no truly understand her as well as I did." Instead, people think "Oh she's just experimenting." And they think that because our society tells us that it is okay and normal to want to chase after and fuck girls--that it is normal and even expected that straight girls should want to chase after and fuck girls just for the sake of doing it (ie experiment with it). But when she comes over to ask be bent over a kitchen counter while some guy pile drives her into an orgasm so long she needs an oxygen tank to catch her breath afterwards, suddenly we think it must be because the guy is somehow winning her over. Because it can't be that she simply wants to chase after the man as a sexual object that she wants orgasms from, it must be because emotions are involved. You don't think automatically think "Oh, she wants to experiment with other men" because we are societally trained to not think of men as things we experiment with sexually.
No, you live in a society where that's what you think specifically guys think and you can rightly go fuck yourself for generalizing.
If you read my posts here I actually said that women have this mindset as well, a lot of times more so than guys do--but since you obviously think that only men can have these kinds of thoughts shows how little you know about the problems of misogyny are in the west.
(Girls are misogynistic too, it's a societal problem, not a personal problem, no need to get defensive. The society needs to be fixed, not the sex.)
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| | By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography |
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| Kich United States. March 19 2012 16:19. Posts 338 | Profile # |
On March 19 2012 16:14 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 16:08 Kich wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:58 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:29 Kich wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:06 lorkac wrote:
I'm not defending women--I'm simply trying to point out why it is a thread like this can exist.
You very much are defending women whether it was intentional or not and they really don't need it. It's incredibly rare to find someone who legitimately objectifies women in the way you proposed, attraction isn't objectification. It's ok to find people attractive, it's ok to want to have sex with them, and you do that because of a need to feel wanted. That guy's point is perfectly valid--it's fundamentally different whether your girlfriend experiments with a male or a female based on their sexual orientation. The reverse would absolutely be true and to think otherwise would be horribly naive. If it were a woman with a man who wanted to have sex with another woman to just experiment that same feeling of jealousy would intervene. Attraction is a real thing, his point in that if she were to have sex with a woman she wouldn't feel anything is legitimate. She is with him, but she is attracted to men. How long have they been speaking? How long have they known each other? For all he knows he's losing her--and there's nothing wrong with that feeling because it's not negative, or offensive. You get that way because you care about them and you are under the notion they care about you as well--and if they don't, that hurts. To a straight person, having intercourse with the same sex doesn't provoke the feelings having intercourse with another sex would. Achieving orgasms is just achieving orgasms, but making love is something different, and people won't love what they can't love. Unless you'd like to try and legitimately claim that sexual preference is a choice, in that case there's the door, I'd rather not talk to you as I find that notion highly offensive.
A.) I'm not defending women--I'm simply pointing out how silly it is to think that a girl will leave you just because someone puts his dick inside her. If you don't trust her, then you should mistrust who she talks to--not who she's fucking. If you trust her--then you should trust that when she says she wants to have sex with someone it is because she wants to have sex with someone and not because she's secretly trying to leave you. (Which she could do out right by simply leaving you, and then having sex with someone else without any permission what-so-ever) B.) I have never suggested people don't get attracted. Ever. I've said whoever your partner wants to have sex with is his/her choice. It is not your choice, nor is it the choice of the person she's trying to have sex with. When your partner wants to have sex with someone else, it's because she wants to have sex with that person. If she wants to cheat on you and leave you for whatever reason--it's because it is his/her choice and was not the choice of the other person. We live in a society where it is weird to think of two straight guys making out and jerking each other off--but it is sexy to think of two straight girls making out and getting each other off. We think this way because it is weird to think of guys as sexual objects to be chased after and desired, but it seems normal to want to chase after and fuck women. So when it comes to relationships. It seems normal that your straight girlfriend would experiment with women. When your girlfriend says to you "hey, I want to have sex with girls" you don't automatically think "Oh, she must be bisexual/homosexual, maybe she and I should talk about the possibility that she's not straight and that it's weird how much I did no truly understand her as well as I did." Instead, people think "Oh she's just experimenting." And they think that because our society tells us that it is okay and normal to want to chase after and fuck girls--that it is normal and even expected that straight girls should want to chase after and fuck girls just for the sake of doing it (ie experiment with it). But when she comes over to ask be bent over a kitchen counter while some guy pile drives her into an orgasm so long she needs an oxygen tank to catch her breath afterwards, suddenly we think it must be because the guy is somehow winning her over. Because it can't be that she simply wants to chase after the man as a sexual object that she wants orgasms from, it must be because emotions are involved. You don't think automatically think "Oh, she wants to experiment with other men" because we are societally trained to not think of men as things we experiment with sexually.
No, you live in a society where that's what you think specifically guys think and you can rightly go fuck yourself for generalizing.
If you read my posts here I actually said that women have this mindset as well, a lot of times more so than guys do--but since you obviously think that only men can have these kinds of thoughts shows how little you know about the problems of misogyny are in the west. (Girls are misogynistic too, it's a societal problem, not a personal problem, no need to get defensive. The society needs to be fixed, not the sex.)
Fixed in what way, what in any way shape or form is wrong with any of that? And stop saying Misogyny, it's so far from the truth it hurts. Women don't hate themselves and men don't hate them either. Feeling jealous isn't misogyny, wanting to have sex with her isn't misogyny.Last edit: 2012-03-19 16:22:41 |
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| lorkac United States. March 19 2012 16:24. Posts 2297 | Profile Blog # |
On March 19 2012 16:06 Kich wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 15:53 Iplaythings wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:35 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:06 Myrddraal wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:35 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:31 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:30 dAPhREAk wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:29 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:24 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:18 Djzapz wrote:
[quote]
You literally accused me of thinking of women as objects. I really, really don't. And yes the way I think about women is affected by society, but I really don't think of women as objects, at all. Not me.
Is that why you'd be more jealous of your girlfriend having sex with men as opposed to women? Because you see them as equals?
Like I said, a large part of it is because if my gf asked me if she could have sex with another girl, I'd know it was meaningless to her. If she asked me if she could have sex with another dude, I'd feel threatened - she's a heterosexual. She could like him, or she could fall in love with him.
why would it be any more meaningful if its a man? either way she wants to have sex with someone who is not you.
I'd be fine with her wanting to experiment with a person for who she has no feelings. I believe she can have this sort of sex with a woman. I don't know that she can have this with a man. It's like that, shes "straight".
Why can't she be experimenting with a man or a woman? Or do you believe that a man can convince her to love him more than you, but a woman can't? An experiment is an experiment whether its a guy or a girl.
Gotta agree with Djzapz here, if you know your partner well enough to have faith that they are straight, then it makes a huge difference whether they would be experimenting with a guy or a girl, obviously if you had only just started going out, you wouldn't feel safe making that assumption. Either way it's his opinion and I don't think it is based on equality between men and women but a healthy relationship with his partner. If she is experimenting with a girl they both gain something (assuming his partner wishes to do so) but if she experiments with a guy then she gains something out of it and he does not (because of his previously stated reasons). Of course the roles could be reversed and his partner might not like the idea of sharing him with another girl in which case obviously they would not do anything anyway, seems equal to me.
The problem is that it shouldn't matter whether or not the experiment is with a girl or guy. If you don't trust them to be able to "just" experiment, then it wouldn't matter what sex the person is. If you do trust that your partner *can* experiment, then it shouldn't matter what sex the person is. Either you trust that they can remain experimental, or you can't trust that they remain experimental. To think that the choice to experiment is not in your partner and is instead within the sex of the person your partner is having sex with--that should be a strange way of seeing the world. Whether or not your partner leaves you for the person they have sex with is their choice, it is not decided by whether or not the other person is male/female. That is the problem with the "it makes me uncomfortable" mindset. Because what they mean is that they are scared that the other guy can convince their girl to leave him. What they don't realize is that it, in essence, assumes your girlfriend has no say in whether or not she leaves you or not. It assumes that only the other guy is able to steal your girl. It assumes that your girlfriend is only strong enough to withstand the whiles of other girls, but isn't strong enough to withstand the whiles of other men. I'm not saying it's weird or wrong that he is less trusting of other men--I'm saying that it's perfectly normal and culturally taught for him to think that only other men have the ability to control the mind of his girlfriend enough to think that the deciding factor on whether she leaves him or not is how much of the other guy's penis is inside her.
It seems as if you're incapable of understand his view of homosexual experimentation. To him (if I got this right) his GF having sex with a boy would indicate that she's looking for a new partner because she's interested in men However, his GF having sex with a girl would be different, assuming that she or the other girl isn't in the closet, because she's interested in men so she would only like to try a sexy time with a girl once, for the sake of curiousity and experimenting which isn't uncommon, I've considered it myself and It's not unlikely that I would try it myself (I'm male though)
At a really basic level, yeah, pretty much this. Contrary to lorkac's belief, we don't walk around and feel attracted to people in a vacuum where their sex has virtually no impact. People are born with an attraction to a given sex, be it their own or the opposite. He spins a negative connotation towards western partnership culture, but in reality our culture for relationships is no better or worse than any other and certainly doesn't have one side in favor of the other. His opinion, which is why I'm frustrated, is wholly opposing the male perspective yet does nothing to address the identical female perspective. A straight male doesn't want his girlfriend having sex with another guy, a straight female doesn't want her boyfriend having sex with another girl, and a gay male / female doesn't want their boy / girlfriend having sex with another guy / girl. There is nothing objectifying about any of that because that's not what that is and trying to argue otherwise is a serious lack of comprehension of relationships and gender in general.It's white-knight bullshit that paints everyone in a shitty light for the sake of trying to make natural tendencies sound bad. I can barely get over how horribly ignorant these points are. Your straight girlfriend has experience with having sex with males, she does not have experience having sex with females, is that clear enough lorkac?
Actually, funny that you should mention that, but what I'm suggesting is that it is possible that people could simply want to have sex with men/women and be able to do without having to fall in love/run away with them. Because, the way I see it, having sex with someone is not the same as falling in love with someone.
Ie Your straight girlfriend can want to have sex with another guy simply because she is a woman who finds him attractive. She could then ask you if she can have sex with him. You either trust her that she only wants sex, or you distrust her thinking she wants more than sex.
When she comes up to you and asks "can I have sex with a woman" you either trust her and believe she just wants to have sex with a woman, or distrust her and think she's not actually straight.
However, neither of those scenarios happen.
Instead you distrust her for wanting to have sex with men. (you see her as object that can be taken from you)
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And you are titillated that she is willing to have sex with women. (its okay and natural for straight people to want to have sex with women because the act of having sex with women is a victorious act, ie a trophy (object) that you hold high)
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| | By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography |
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| firehand101 Australia. March 19 2012 16:24. Posts 3000 | Profile Blog # |
| lol the participate one should be number one haha |
| | The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff. |
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| Focuspants Canada. March 19 2012 16:27. Posts 752 | Profile # |
I think your posts are highly sensationalized. In most relationships, a partner wants to be the one to take care of the others sexual desires and needs. If you are a man, and your female partner says she wants to "experiment" with another guy, that other guy comes with the same equipment you do. She could do that experimentation with you. If she says that she wants to experiment with a female, you dont have the same equipment as a female, and couldnt fulfill that desire. Same goes for a reversal of situations.
Also, we as humans are protective. Its a natural trait to want to defend and protect those you love. Allowing someone else to engage in acts that are alike to those you hold dear with the other, will naturally make you feel threatened, and make you respond. Being straight, and seeing the world with your straight brain, you would be much less likely to be threatened by a member of the same gender of your significant other. Its pretty basic human nature, and it isnt mysoginistic. You arent mysoginistic for wanting to defend and protect those you love, and it isnt mysoginistic to feel threatened or be jealous by another person engaging in sexual intercourse with your partner. This isnt societal, its biological.
If you want to rewire human beings and have a strange world where everyone is genderless, then thats all fine and well for you, but biology pretty much dictates why we respond the way we do to peoples relationships with your mate. |
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| r.Evo Germany. March 19 2012 16:35. Posts 5207 | Profile # |
Wut. I think I'll backtrack the last 10 pages and find out the reasonings for the high amount of "No"s, can't understand. =S
Clear yes.
a) No girl is a possible competitor for me.
b) The more she enjoys sex with other girls the more she is likely to enjoy sex with me+another girl.
c) The agreement in my relationship actually goes further; - both parties are allowed to have fun with another girl IF, for some reason the other party isn't physically able to join in and it is talked about beforehand.
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| | "We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross |
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| Shai Canada. March 19 2012 16:39. Posts 553 | Profile Blog # |
On March 19 2012 15:35 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 15:06 Myrddraal wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:35 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:31 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:30 dAPhREAk wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:29 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:24 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:18 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:15 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:01 Djzapz wrote:
[quote]
First let me make it clear - just because I don't have much of an explanation for why I think the way I do doesn't mean that your attempt to an explanation is automatically valid. I see women as my equals, in fact my girlfriend is currently more successful than me, and I have a lot of respect for her. She's in no way a toy, or my inferior in any way. In fact, quite the contrary in many cases, she's quite intimidating.
If she were to have sex with women, it would just be sex. She doesn't like women. If she wanted to have sex with other men, I'd be worried - maybe I'm not good enough, maybe she's falling for him. It would be uncomfortable. I think this makes up for a large part of the reason why I'd be opposed to her having sex with men.
[quote]
I wouldn't be fine with either.
[quote]
I'm a good guy, I promise. If this plays any role in my position, it's very indirect.
As I've said, I'm not assuming you're maliciously thinking that women are less than you. You're revealing the very common and very western way of thinking about women. It's not specific to you, it's specific to the society you're part of. And of course you'll see your girlfriend as your equal. It's why you love her. It's when she's having sex with others that your discomfort happens. It's when she's having sex with other "women" that your societal habits emerge. It's when she's having sex with men that your societal jealousy churns inside you.
You literally accused me of thinking of women as objects. I really, really don't. And yes the way I think about women is affected by society, but I really don't think of women as objects, at all. Not me.
Is that why you'd be more jealous of your girlfriend having sex with men as opposed to women? Because you see them as equals?
Like I said, a large part of it is because if my gf asked me if she could have sex with another girl, I'd know it was meaningless to her. If she asked me if she could have sex with another dude, I'd feel threatened - she's a heterosexual. She could like him, or she could fall in love with him.
why would it be any more meaningful if its a man? either way she wants to have sex with someone who is not you.
I'd be fine with her wanting to experiment with a person for who she has no feelings. I believe she can have this sort of sex with a woman. I don't know that she can have this with a man. It's like that, shes "straight".
Why can't she be experimenting with a man or a woman? Or do you believe that a man can convince her to love him more than you, but a woman can't? An experiment is an experiment whether its a guy or a girl.
Gotta agree with Djzapz here, if you know your partner well enough to have faith that they are straight, then it makes a huge difference whether they would be experimenting with a guy or a girl, obviously if you had only just started going out, you wouldn't feel safe making that assumption. Either way it's his opinion and I don't think it is based on equality between men and women but a healthy relationship with his partner. If she is experimenting with a girl they both gain something (assuming his partner wishes to do so) but if she experiments with a guy then she gains something out of it and he does not (because of his previously stated reasons). Of course the roles could be reversed and his partner might not like the idea of sharing him with another girl in which case obviously they would not do anything anyway, seems equal to me.
The problem is that it shouldn't matter whether or not the experiment is with a girl or guy. If you don't trust them to be able to "just" experiment, then it wouldn't matter what sex the person is. If you do trust that your partner *can* experiment, then it shouldn't matter what sex the person is. Either you trust that they can remain experimental, or you can't trust that they remain experimental. To think that the choice to experiment is not in your partner and is instead within the sex of the person your partner is having sex with--that should be a strange way of seeing the world. Whether or not your partner leaves you for the person they have sex with is their choice, it is not decided by whether or not the other person is male/female. That is the problem with the "it makes me uncomfortable" mindset. Because what they mean is that they are scared that the other guy can convince their girl to leave him. What they don't realize is that it, in essence, assumes your girlfriend has no say in whether or not she leaves you or not. It assumes that only the other guy is able to steal your girl. It assumes that your girlfriend is only strong enough to withstand the whiles of other girls, but isn't strong enough to withstand the whiles of other men. I'm not saying it's weird or wrong that he is less trusting of other men--I'm saying that it's perfectly normal and culturally taught for him to think that only other men have the ability to control the mind of his girlfriend enough to think that the deciding factor on whether she leaves him or not is how much of the other guy's penis is inside her.
Your argument is invalid.
My wife is BI. I can't have lesbian sex with her. So I let her have lesbian sex with other people.
I'm not untrusting of anyone in particular; it's not about her leaving me, its about her expressing her whole self.
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| | A case could be made for "a deistic god, a sort of god of the physicist, a god ... who devised the laws of physics, god the mathematician, god who put together the cosmos in the first place and then sat back ..." - Dawkins |
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| Kich United States. March 19 2012 16:39. Posts 338 | Profile # |
On March 19 2012 16:24 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 16:06 Kich wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:53 Iplaythings wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:35 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:06 Myrddraal wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:35 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:31 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:30 dAPhREAk wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:29 Djzapz wrote:
On March 19 2012 14:24 lorkac wrote:
[quote]
Is that why you'd be more jealous of your girlfriend having sex with men as opposed to women? Because you see them as equals?
Like I said, a large part of it is because if my gf asked me if she could have sex with another girl, I'd know it was meaningless to her. If she asked me if she could have sex with another dude, I'd feel threatened - she's a heterosexual. She could like him, or she could fall in love with him.
why would it be any more meaningful if its a man? either way she wants to have sex with someone who is not you.
I'd be fine with her wanting to experiment with a person for who she has no feelings. I believe she can have this sort of sex with a woman. I don't know that she can have this with a man. It's like that, shes "straight".
Why can't she be experimenting with a man or a woman? Or do you believe that a man can convince her to love him more than you, but a woman can't? An experiment is an experiment whether its a guy or a girl.
Gotta agree with Djzapz here, if you know your partner well enough to have faith that they are straight, then it makes a huge difference whether they would be experimenting with a guy or a girl, obviously if you had only just started going out, you wouldn't feel safe making that assumption. Either way it's his opinion and I don't think it is based on equality between men and women but a healthy relationship with his partner. If she is experimenting with a girl they both gain something (assuming his partner wishes to do so) but if she experiments with a guy then she gains something out of it and he does not (because of his previously stated reasons). Of course the roles could be reversed and his partner might not like the idea of sharing him with another girl in which case obviously they would not do anything anyway, seems equal to me.
The problem is that it shouldn't matter whether or not the experiment is with a girl or guy. If you don't trust them to be able to "just" experiment, then it wouldn't matter what sex the person is. If you do trust that your partner *can* experiment, then it shouldn't matter what sex the person is. Either you trust that they can remain experimental, or you can't trust that they remain experimental. To think that the choice to experiment is not in your partner and is instead within the sex of the person your partner is having sex with--that should be a strange way of seeing the world. Whether or not your partner leaves you for the person they have sex with is their choice, it is not decided by whether or not the other person is male/female. That is the problem with the "it makes me uncomfortable" mindset. Because what they mean is that they are scared that the other guy can convince their girl to leave him. What they don't realize is that it, in essence, assumes your girlfriend has no say in whether or not she leaves you or not. It assumes that only the other guy is able to steal your girl. It assumes that your girlfriend is only strong enough to withstand the whiles of other girls, but isn't strong enough to withstand the whiles of other men. I'm not saying it's weird or wrong that he is less trusting of other men--I'm saying that it's perfectly normal and culturally taught for him to think that only other men have the ability to control the mind of his girlfriend enough to think that the deciding factor on whether she leaves him or not is how much of the other guy's penis is inside her.
It seems as if you're incapable of understand his view of homosexual experimentation. To him (if I got this right) his GF having sex with a boy would indicate that she's looking for a new partner because she's interested in men However, his GF having sex with a girl would be different, assuming that she or the other girl isn't in the closet, because she's interested in men so she would only like to try a sexy time with a girl once, for the sake of curiousity and experimenting which isn't uncommon, I've considered it myself and It's not unlikely that I would try it myself (I'm male though)
At a really basic level, yeah, pretty much this. Contrary to lorkac's belief, we don't walk around and feel attracted to people in a vacuum where their sex has virtually no impact. People are born with an attraction to a given sex, be it their own or the opposite. He spins a negative connotation towards western partnership culture, but in reality our culture for relationships is no better or worse than any other and certainly doesn't have one side in favor of the other. His opinion, which is why I'm frustrated, is wholly opposing the male perspective yet does nothing to address the identical female perspective. A straight male doesn't want his girlfriend having sex with another guy, a straight female doesn't want her boyfriend having sex with another girl, and a gay male / female doesn't want their boy / girlfriend having sex with another guy / girl. There is nothing objectifying about any of that because that's not what that is and trying to argue otherwise is a serious lack of comprehension of relationships and gender in general.It's white-knight bullshit that paints everyone in a shitty light for the sake of trying to make natural tendencies sound bad. I can barely get over how horribly ignorant these points are. Your straight girlfriend has experience with having sex with males, she does not have experience having sex with females, is that clear enough lorkac?
Actually, funny that you should mention that, but what I'm suggesting is that it is possible that people could simply want to have sex with men/women and be able to do without having to fall in love/run away with them. Because, the way I see it, having sex with someone is not the same as falling in love with someone. Ie Your straight girlfriend can want to have sex with another guy simply because she is a woman who finds him attractive. She could then ask you if she can have sex with him. You either trust her that she only wants sex, or you distrust her thinking she wants more than sex. When she comes up to you and asks "can I have sex with a woman" you either trust her and believe she just wants to have sex with a woman, or distrust her and think she's not actually straight. However, neither of those scenarios happen. Instead you distrust her for wanting to have sex with men. (you see her as object that can be taken from you) & And you are titillated that she is willing to have sex with women. (its okay and natural for straight people to want to have sex with women because the act of having sex with women is a victorious act, ie a trophy (object) that you hold high)
I would regard this as wholly incorrect. Firstly, your assessment that neither of those scenarios happen is patently untrue. Having sex with someone is a product of being in love with that person, sex outside of a relationship is a means to an end to arrive in a relationship.
I don't understand why you have these views, that women are just objects to you, it seems inherently false. My main point of frustration in your arguments is that you imply that this is a feeling that only applies to women, but this exact same thing applies towards men from women, from men towards men, and from women towards women, you mistook my point about "something only guys think" and answered "well women think this way as well"--that's not what I'm getting at.
Replace everything in your awkwardly detailed stories about having sex (and using the word "fucking" as if to try and make it sound more savage or something) that had to do with any sex with the other, and the exact same feelings occur.
Those feelings are a result of attraction, women would have the exact same feelings toward their male partner if they asked to have sex with another woman, it has absolutely nothing to do with any specific sex and everything to do with whether it's the sex that your partner is attracted to.
From the sound of it, I'd really hate to be your significant other, you sound very cold and void of any real grasp on how emotions work and function in a relationship. |
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| lorkac United States. March 19 2012 16:40. Posts 2297 | Profile Blog # |
On March 19 2012 16:19 Kich wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 16:14 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 16:08 Kich wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:58 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:29 Kich wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:06 lorkac wrote:
I'm not defending women--I'm simply trying to point out why it is a thread like this can exist.
You very much are defending women whether it was intentional or not and they really don't need it. It's incredibly rare to find someone who legitimately objectifies women in the way you proposed, attraction isn't objectification. It's ok to find people attractive, it's ok to want to have sex with them, and you do that because of a need to feel wanted. That guy's point is perfectly valid--it's fundamentally different whether your girlfriend experiments with a male or a female based on their sexual orientation. The reverse would absolutely be true and to think otherwise would be horribly naive. If it were a woman with a man who wanted to have sex with another woman to just experiment that same feeling of jealousy would intervene. Attraction is a real thing, his point in that if she were to have sex with a woman she wouldn't feel anything is legitimate. She is with him, but she is attracted to men. How long have they been speaking? How long have they known each other? For all he knows he's losing her--and there's nothing wrong with that feeling because it's not negative, or offensive. You get that way because you care about them and you are under the notion they care about you as well--and if they don't, that hurts. To a straight person, having intercourse with the same sex doesn't provoke the feelings having intercourse with another sex would. Achieving orgasms is just achieving orgasms, but making love is something different, and people won't love what they can't love. Unless you'd like to try and legitimately claim that sexual preference is a choice, in that case there's the door, I'd rather not talk to you as I find that notion highly offensive.
A.) I'm not defending women--I'm simply pointing out how silly it is to think that a girl will leave you just because someone puts his dick inside her. If you don't trust her, then you should mistrust who she talks to--not who she's fucking. If you trust her--then you should trust that when she says she wants to have sex with someone it is because she wants to have sex with someone and not because she's secretly trying to leave you. (Which she could do out right by simply leaving you, and then having sex with someone else without any permission what-so-ever) B.) I have never suggested people don't get attracted. Ever. I've said whoever your partner wants to have sex with is his/her choice. It is not your choice, nor is it the choice of the person she's trying to have sex with. When your partner wants to have sex with someone else, it's because she wants to have sex with that person. If she wants to cheat on you and leave you for whatever reason--it's because it is his/her choice and was not the choice of the other person. We live in a society where it is weird to think of two straight guys making out and jerking each other off--but it is sexy to think of two straight girls making out and getting each other off. We think this way because it is weird to think of guys as sexual objects to be chased after and desired, but it seems normal to want to chase after and fuck women. So when it comes to relationships. It seems normal that your straight girlfriend would experiment with women. When your girlfriend says to you "hey, I want to have sex with girls" you don't automatically think "Oh, she must be bisexual/homosexual, maybe she and I should talk about the possibility that she's not straight and that it's weird how much I did no truly understand her as well as I did." Instead, people think "Oh she's just experimenting." And they think that because our society tells us that it is okay and normal to want to chase after and fuck girls--that it is normal and even expected that straight girls should want to chase after and fuck girls just for the sake of doing it (ie experiment with it). But when she comes over to ask be bent over a kitchen counter while some guy pile drives her into an orgasm so long she needs an oxygen tank to catch her breath afterwards, suddenly we think it must be because the guy is somehow winning her over. Because it can't be that she simply wants to chase after the man as a sexual object that she wants orgasms from, it must be because emotions are involved. You don't think automatically think "Oh, she wants to experiment with other men" because we are societally trained to not think of men as things we experiment with sexually.
No, you live in a society where that's what you think specifically guys think and you can rightly go fuck yourself for generalizing.
If you read my posts here I actually said that women have this mindset as well, a lot of times more so than guys do--but since you obviously think that only men can have these kinds of thoughts shows how little you know about the problems of misogyny are in the west. (Girls are misogynistic too, it's a societal problem, not a personal problem, no need to get defensive. The society needs to be fixed, not the sex.)
Fixed in what way, what in any way shape or form is wrong with any of that? And stop saying Misogyny, it's so far from the truth it hurts. Women don't hate themselves and men don't hate them either. Feeling jealous isn't misogyny, wanting to have sex with her isn't misogyny.
lol
I never said that jealousy was misogynistic. Nor did I say that wanting to have sex with women is misogynistic 
lol
Read again--I'm talking about how we value women, not what we do for/against women.
Someone being jealous is not someone being misogynistic.
Someone only being jealous of other men but not other women is misogynistic. Not because he should be jealous of both equally--but because his jealousy stems from the fact that he thinks that the only reason his girlfriend wants women is to have sex with them (and not because she's actually in the closet/bi/confused/etc...) but she only wants men because she wants them (conscientiously or subconsciously).
And again, the jealousy part is not the misogynistic part--the misogynistic part is the passive assumptions we make because we live in a society that tells us that that is a normally way to think of the world.
It goes both ways too.
If a guy tells his girl that he's going fishing with his buddy for three weeks--she does not think that they're going brokeback on her back. But if the guy tells her that he's fishing with his female buddy for three weeks--then of course she'll think that her man is cheating on her. (Note how the line of thinking is that *he* will cheat on *her* and not that the girl will somehow steal him away on her shoulder)
When the guy does cheat on the girl, the girl will think it's because the other woman is prettier, or younger, or more attractive, maybe even more sexually submissive (ie willing to do anything), etc...
She will think of both herself and the other girl as these physical objects to be gazed on, as bodies that have to be pretty enough, sexy enough, etc....
We as a society can't help think and act this way. We live in a misogynistic culture, it's how we're raised. |
| | By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography |
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| r.Evo Germany. March 19 2012 16:43. Posts 5207 | Profile # |
On March 19 2012 16:40 lorkac wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 16:19 Kich wrote:
On March 19 2012 16:14 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 16:08 Kich wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:58 lorkac wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:29 Kich wrote:
On March 19 2012 15:06 lorkac wrote:
I'm not defending women--I'm simply trying to point out why it is a thread like this can exist.
You very much are defending women whether it was intentional or not and they really don't need it. It's incredibly rare to find someone who legitimately objectifies women in the way you proposed, attraction isn't objectification. It's ok to find people attractive, it's ok to want to have sex with them, and you do that because of a need to feel wanted. That guy's point is perfectly valid--it's fundamentally different whether your girlfriend experiments with a male or a female based on their sexual orientation. The reverse would absolutely be true and to think otherwise would be horribly naive. If it were a woman with a man who wanted to have sex with another woman to just experiment that same feeling of jealousy would intervene. Attraction is a real thing, his point in that if she were to have sex with a woman she wouldn't feel anything is legitimate. She is with him, but she is attracted to men. How long have they been speaking? How long have they known each other? For all he knows he's losing her--and there's nothing wrong with that feeling because it's not negative, or offensive. You get that way because you care about them and you are under the notion they care about you as well--and if they don't, that hurts. To a straight person, having intercourse with the same sex doesn't provoke the feelings having intercourse with another sex would. Achieving orgasms is just achieving orgasms, but making love is something different, and people won't love what they can't love. Unless you'd like to try and legitimately claim that sexual preference is a choice, in that case there's the door, I'd rather not talk to you as I find that notion highly offensive.
A.) I'm not defending women--I'm simply pointing out how silly it is to think that a girl will leave you just because someone puts his dick inside her. If you don't trust her, then you should mistrust who she talks to--not who she's fucking. If you trust her--then you should trust that when she says she wants to have sex with someone it is because she wants to have sex with someone and not because she's secretly trying to leave you. (Which she could do out right by simply leaving you, and then having sex with someone else without any permission what-so-ever) B.) I have never suggested people don't get attracted. Ever. I've said whoever your partner wants to have sex with is his/her choice. It is not your choice, nor is it the choice of the person she's trying to have sex with. When your partner wants to have sex with someone else, it's because she wants to have sex with that person. If she wants to cheat on you and leave you for whatever reason--it's because it is his/her choice and was not the choice of the other person. We live in a society where it is weird to think of two straight guys making out and jerking each other off--but it is sexy to think of two straight girls making out and getting each other off. We think this way because it is weird to think of guys as sexual objects to be chased after and desired, but it seems normal to want to chase after and fuck women. So when it comes to relationships. It seems normal that your straight girlfriend would experiment with women. When your girlfriend says to you "hey, I want to have sex with girls" you don't automatically think "Oh, she must be bisexual/homosexual, maybe she and I should talk about the possibility that she's not straight and that it's weird how much I did no truly understand her as well as I did." Instead, people think "Oh she's just experimenting." And they think that because our society tells us that it is okay and normal to want to chase after and fuck girls--that it is normal and even expected that straight girls should want to chase after and fuck girls just for the sake of doing it (ie experiment with it). But when she comes over to ask be bent over a kitchen counter while some guy pile drives her into an orgasm so long she needs an oxygen tank to catch her breath afterwards, suddenly we think it must be because the guy is somehow winning her over. Because it can't be that she simply wants to chase after the man as a sexual object that she wants orgasms from, it must be because emotions are involved. You don't think automatically think "Oh, she wants to experiment with other men" because we are societally trained to not think of men as things we experiment with sexually.
No, you live in a society where that's what you think specifically guys think and you can rightly go fuck yourself for generalizing.
If you read my posts here I actually said that women have this mindset as well, a lot of times more so than guys do--but since you obviously think that only men can have these kinds of thoughts shows how little you know about the problems of misogyny are in the west. (Girls are misogynistic too, it's a societal problem, not a personal problem, no need to get defensive. The society needs to be fixed, not the sex.)
Fixed in what way, what in any way shape or form is wrong with any of that? And stop saying Misogyny, it's so far from the truth it hurts. Women don't hate themselves and men don't hate them either. Feeling jealous isn't misogyny, wanting to have sex with her isn't misogyny.
lol I never said that jealousy was misogynistic. Nor did I say that wanting to have sex with women is misogynistic lol Read again--I'm talking about how we value women, not what we do for/against women. Someone being jealous is not someone being misogynistic. Someone only being jealous of other men but not other women is misogynistic. Not because he should be jealous of both equally--but because his jealousy stems from the fact that he thinks that the only reason his girlfriend wants women is to have sex with them (and not because she's actually in the closet/bi/confused/etc...) but she only wants men because she wants them (conscientiously or subconsciously). And again, the jealousy part is not the misogynistic part--the misogynistic part is the passive assumptions we make because we live in a society that tells us that that is a normally way to think of the world. It goes both ways too. If a guy tells his girl that he's going fishing with his buddy for three weeks--she does not think that they're going brokeback on her back. But if the guy tells her that he's fishing with his female buddy for three weeks--then of course she'll think that her man is cheating on her. (Note how the line of thinking is that *he* will cheat on *her* and not that the girl will somehow steal him away on her shoulder) When the guy does cheat on the girl, the girl will think it's because the other woman is prettier, or younger, or more attractive, maybe even more sexually submissive (ie willing to do anything), etc...
She will think of both herself and the other girl as these physical objects to be gazed on, as bodies that have to be pretty enough, sexy enough, etc....We as a society can't help think and act this way. We live in a misogynistic culture, it's how we're raised.
...or you solve all these dilemmas with one of the most beautiful and true sentences an author ever wrote on this topic:
"A man wants to sleep with as many women as possible in his life. However, there is only one woman he wants to fall asleep with." (~Kundera) |
| | "We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross |
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