| superstartran United States. March 20 2012 11:28. Posts 1307 | Profile # |
On March 20 2012 09:19 sitromit wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 09:08 Audemed wrote:
3 hatches aren't the problem with these macro maps, it's roaches. They're so damn cheap, you can just sit and drone like mad without having to pool many resources, then just max out on them as fast as you can inject.
You'd think with these posts that Zerg has 100% win rate or something... Just inject, spam Roaches and collect win, sounds great...
There is a reason very few Protoss players sit back and attempt to macro/defend 3rd because trying to do so is basically suicide. Defending 180+ supply of Roaches with about 110-120 at most is impossible. What does P do? Hit the Z before he can do that nonsense.
Every good PvZ player attempts to threaten Z with something in order to deviate him away from Roaches.Last edit: 2012-03-20 11:34:34 |
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| rezoacken Canada. March 20 2012 11:31. Posts 1444 | Profile # |
Blizzard is not good enough to foresee the future of pro-players strategies (which will become the norm) tbh 
I think we came a long way, if Zerg has a too easy time now, they'll get little nerfs or 3rds will be rock blocked or harder to connect. |
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| chadissilent Canada. March 20 2012 11:39. Posts 920 | Profile # |
On March 20 2012 11:22 K3Nyy wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 08:53 darkscream wrote:
On March 20 2012 08:44 Benjamin80 wrote:
On March 20 2012 08:38 sitromit wrote:
On March 20 2012 07:58 emc wrote:
lol, stephano didn't invent pool, hatch, hatch to be honest there probably is no sure way of who did it first. But I will say the first time I saw it used in a competitive match was in the GSL and it was Nestea and Losira who popularized it and was later known as IM zerg style, if you do some searching on TL you will find the strategy thread.
Sssshhh!! Let his fans believe he invented everything...
No fan has sayd he invented pool, hatch, hatch. But what he did invent is the "Stephano style" (that many zergs now try to copy) And what is that? Its the gas timings and upgrade timings and thats why he is very special
I didn't say he invented it. I said he deserves credit for the style being popular, which he does!
I remember 3 hatch being the standard for a looooooooooong time. I don't know why everyone thinks it's just only popular now when it was the go-to build vs FFE since like forever.
It's the timings that he hits which make it a solid solution in every single scenario. Many other pros that do the build will get a later lair, or slower upgrades, or less drones. Stephano's variation is pretty much picture perfect. |
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| PH United States. March 20 2012 11:40. Posts 6076 | Profile Blog # |
On March 20 2012 11:28 superstartran wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 09:19 sitromit wrote:
On March 20 2012 09:08 Audemed wrote:
3 hatches aren't the problem with these macro maps, it's roaches. They're so damn cheap, you can just sit and drone like mad without having to pool many resources, then just max out on them as fast as you can inject.
You'd think with these posts that Zerg has 100% win rate or something... Just inject, spam Roaches and collect win, sounds great...
There is a reason very few Protoss players sit back and attempt to macro/defend 3rd because trying to do so is basically suicide. Defending 180+ supply of Roaches with about 110-120 at most is impossible. What does P do? Hit the Z before he can do that nonsense. Every good PvZ player attempts to threaten Z with something in order to deviate him away from Roaches.
When does a Z ever have 180 supply in Roaches? |
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| askTeivospy March 20 2012 11:42. Posts 1495 | Profile Blog # |
| just make it so if you want to play a map you play that map, i hate randomized ladder since you're always forced to play on objectively bad maps (ie i hate NR20 large maps, i feel as if early game micro defense = less options to defend successfully if you're surprised = higher skill cap than 200 200 battles) |
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| sitromit March 20 2012 11:45. Posts 5772 | Profile # |
On March 20 2012 11:28 superstartran wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 09:19 sitromit wrote:
On March 20 2012 09:08 Audemed wrote:
3 hatches aren't the problem with these macro maps, it's roaches. They're so damn cheap, you can just sit and drone like mad without having to pool many resources, then just max out on them as fast as you can inject.
You'd think with these posts that Zerg has 100% win rate or something... Just inject, spam Roaches and collect win, sounds great...
There is a reason very few Protoss players sit back and attempt to macro/defend 3rd because trying to do so is basically suicide. Defending 180+ supply of Roaches with about 110-120 at most is impossible. What does P do? Hit the Z before he can do that nonsense. Every good PvZ player attempts to threaten Z with something in order to deviate him away from Roaches.
So you're saying that when Zerg has to go 3 fast Hatches and build nothing but Drones, and delay tech to the point of not even having Zergling speed 8 minutes into the game, just to be able to deal with the army Protoss can build off of a FFE, Protoss has options to punish it? No kidding!!!Last edit: 2012-03-20 11:47:04 |
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| cLutZ United States. March 20 2012 11:47. Posts 2878 | Profile # |
On March 20 2012 11:05 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 11:03 cLutZ wrote:
On March 20 2012 10:52 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
On March 20 2012 09:27 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
I'm pretty sure blizzard is only making good maps for zerg, Read Tal'darim;Metalopolis;Metropolis
Blizzard didn't make Tal'darim or metropolis. Also, the VAST MAJORITY of Blizzard maps have been anti zerg. For every Metal there is a Kulas, Xel'naga and Steps.
Steppes wasn't anti-zerg. It was Anti-Idra. There were plenty of cheesy builds available to all races, and Zergs just refused to engage in the optimal strategies.
steppes was anti zerg. Every zerg hated it.
Because zergs hate all ins. Plenty worked, the map was basically a coinflip map for every matchup. I really liked it as random because people would get pissed because they would have to scout my race before deciding on a BO. |
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| Ballistixz United States. March 20 2012 11:49. Posts 1269 | Profile # |
| ah yes, steppes of war. lawlzy map. RIP steppes of war, u will never be seen again. |
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| oOOoOphidian United States. March 20 2012 12:07. Posts 1235 | Profile # |
On March 20 2012 11:51 JOJOsc2news wrote:Reading this just made me think of Scrap Station. I know Scrap Station had issues (like the different base size, creep tumor etc.) but I think I played the most entertaining and fun games on that map. I also have good memories when it comes to professional play. I remember watching the GSL Code S finals between  Mvp and  MarineKing with Scrap Station as the map where MVP takes the series 4:0. Ahh... good old days. Even though I was cheering for MarineKing. I guess I have gone quite off topic. Back on track: I really miss more creative map formats like 3 player maps, layouts like Scrap Station etc. I know it is extremely difficult to make a balanced map but I am also noticing a trend of maps becoming more and more similar in style and layout and wish some map makers would try to do something different. Something new! Something exciting. Something risky.
One of the new proposed maps in a contest is essentially a remake of scrap station with altered base designs that make the third less absurd and a reasonable fourth base, as well as removing gold/island/rocked bases. It's pretty interesting and I agree I have some memories of unique games on the map, though I feel even with the changes, the map is poorly balanced.Last edit: 2012-03-20 12:07:31 |
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| JOJOsc2news March 20 2012 12:19. Posts 2999 | Profile Blog # |
On March 20 2012 12:07 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 11:51 JOJOsc2news wrote:Reading this just made me think of Scrap Station. I know Scrap Station had issues (like the different base size, creep tumor etc.) but I think I played the most entertaining and fun games on that map. I also have good memories when it comes to professional play. I remember watching the GSL Code S finals between Mvp and MarineKing with Scrap Station as the map where MVP takes the series 4:0. Ahh... good old days. Even though I was cheering for MarineKing. I guess I have gone quite off topic. Back on track: I really miss more creative map formats like 3 player maps, layouts like Scrap Station etc. I know it is extremely difficult to make a balanced map but I am also noticing a trend of maps becoming more and more similar in style and layout and wish some map makers would try to do something different. Something new! Something exciting. Something risky.
One of the new proposed maps in a contest is essentially a remake of scrap station with altered base designs that make the third less absurd and a reasonable fourth base, as well as removing gold/island/rocked bases. It's pretty interesting and I agree I have some memories of unique games on the map, though I feel even with the changes, the map is poorly balanced.
That sounds interesting. What map is that? |
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| ampson United States. March 20 2012 12:24. Posts 1869 | Profile Blog # |
History of the map pool:
Season 1: Maps did actually kind of suck for zerg. Zerg was somewhat UP and they really let Blizzard know about it (Even though zerg won GSL's 1 and 2.
Season 2-Present: Zergs continue whining and crying to blizzard about how much the map pool sucks and they veto everything until every single map gives you a free 3 bases and wide open spaces in front of expos so that all-in's can't punish greedy play any more.
So no, blizz did not foresee modern ZvP. They made it, with the help of forum whining, etc.
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| Rorschach United States. March 20 2012 12:28. Posts 604 | Profile # |
On March 20 2012 11:09 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 11:06 YyapSsap wrote:
On March 20 2012 10:38 Trealador wrote:
bigger maps favor zerg and protoss due to their obvious mechanics. The longer a distance it takes for tanks to get across the map etc. allows for more build-up of units from zerg and the ability to run by. Protoss have the warp in mechanic which allows them to ignore distance to a certain extent. Drops are very good for terran, but the current trend is having 3 bases all very close together with very few actual drop paths that aren't easily defended to able to be foritfied. Just stating obvious things, but sometimes macro isn't as fun as a 2 base game with lots of little skirmishes. A macro game up for 4 bases with 1 3/3 battle is just as boring and abusive as a 1 base 1/1/1 or 3g VR baneling bust what have you.
Macro is a nice idea, but with certain designs in place, it will phase out more passive terran players. Before anyone jumps on the fact that passive = bad. Protoss and zerg are designed to be passive, are they all designed to be bad players then?
+1.However I think you are forgetting why most macro games are boring for any TvX matchup (other than TvT) and why T in general cannot be passive. The P and Z can be passive because they can utilise their late game units and actually be cost efficient. However the T race as a whole do not have any late game units viable in today's metagame. Hence the T has to play aggressive and try to end the game before reaching to a stage where they will for sure lose out in terms of production rate and cost efficiency of their units. Those 200/200 battles often comes out either equal (disadvantage T) or a complete landslide against the T (T loses, cant re-max fast enough) where the game pretty much ends there. Until T can stand toe to toe with late game P/Z armies and have the ability to trade against each other without being disadvantaged, having larger maps will ultimately nerf T once again.
funny you mention that. There was a morrow (as T) vs leenock game in IPL I believe where morrow played super passively and went for ghosts and mech+ravens and absolutely demolished leenocks army time and time again practically for free while leenock was up quite a few bases, and in the end morrow on because nothing leenock did did any damage to morrows army.
Leenock played like shit that game, please quit citing it people...
Last edit: 2012-03-20 12:28:24 |
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| Corsica Ukraine. March 20 2012 12:30. Posts 1761 | Profile # |
On March 20 2012 11:17 xtruder wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 10:34 Corsica wrote:
On March 20 2012 09:32 iiGreetings wrote:
On March 19 2012 19:56 Megakenny wrote:
On March 19 2012 19:16 AxUU wrote:
I've been quite happy with all the maps except Xel naga is possibly the worst map ever made.
Xel'Naga wasn't the greatest, but its definitely not the worst map to ever be on the ladder.
Steppes of War.
followed by slag pits
You guys really believed slag pits is worse than blistering sands? or desert oasis?
if you spawn close positions, like 12 and 2, rush distance was smaller than Steppes, you could open 2 gate zealot, and still be ahead vs 14 pool |
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| oOOoOphidian United States. March 20 2012 12:31. Posts 1235 | Profile # |
On March 20 2012 12:19 JOJOsc2news wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 12:07 oOOoOphidian wrote:
On March 20 2012 11:51 JOJOsc2news wrote:Reading this just made me think of Scrap Station. I know Scrap Station had issues (like the different base size, creep tumor etc.) but I think I played the most entertaining and fun games on that map. I also have good memories when it comes to professional play. I remember watching the GSL Code S finals between Mvp and MarineKing with Scrap Station as the map where MVP takes the series 4:0. Ahh... good old days. Even though I was cheering for MarineKing. I guess I have gone quite off topic. Back on track: I really miss more creative map formats like 3 player maps, layouts like Scrap Station etc. I know it is extremely difficult to make a balanced map but I am also noticing a trend of maps becoming more and more similar in style and layout and wish some map makers would try to do something different. Something new! Something exciting. Something risky.
One of the new proposed maps in a contest is essentially a remake of scrap station with altered base designs that make the third less absurd and a reasonable fourth base, as well as removing gold/island/rocked bases. It's pretty interesting and I agree I have some memories of unique games on the map, though I feel even with the changes, the map is poorly balanced.
That sounds interesting. What map is that?
It's called Odin. It's the first map here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320479 |
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| sickoota Canada. March 20 2012 12:33. Posts 706 | Profile Blog # |
| The idea of anyone at Blizzard being competent enough at map design or game balance to "forsee" anything is laughable. As in I literally laughed |
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| Kharnage Australia. March 20 2012 13:19. Posts 831 | Profile # |
I think the biggest tragedy of this is that Blizzard so underestimates their 'lowest common denominator' player base.
SC2 is complex shit. I was walking my GF through a co-op game and told her to do a basic bio terran build and sheer amount of crap she had to do was startling.
She's played the dawn of war series and is no RTS newbie, but it was quickly obvious that the 'best' thing to do was play the campaign and learn it bit by bit.
Anyone know knows enough to play on ladder is capable of learning to scout the map. Maybe not efficiently, maybe not with any meaningful timings, but they can learn to occasionally shift click a marine around the 'unused' expos.
The blunt truth is that Blizzard thinks low level players are stupid, barely able to do more than build and army and 1A it at the enemy, and they are wrong. |
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| anApple Singapore. March 20 2012 13:24. Posts 274 | Profile # |
I can only imagine what the maps will be like in HoTS.....
Rofl. More rocks.
Anyway, the new maps are quite good for Zerg imo.... but at least it would allow for more entertaining games and additional skill would be required to do well. |
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| ctrlaltleet United States. March 20 2012 13:36. Posts 8 | Profile Blog # |
On March 19 2012 21:01 idonthinksobro wrote:
I really think terrans are the worst on huge macro maps just because they often times are forced to stay on low tier units the whole game and then die once protoss have 3bases + ht and or zergs infestor broodlord. The matchup TvZ changed a lot it has gone from "terran needs to mess up so zerg has a chance(steppes of war / reapers) to if zerg denies drops and harass they win for free(new maps)".
Why does Terran have to stay on low tier units? Is there a rule that states that? I mean yeah marauders are good, but so are thors/ghosts/ravens/banshees/bcs. I don't get it, Terrans cry because Toss uses Colossus + Storm, both "higher tier", and then loses battles. There are solutions to those besides m/m/m.
When Toss users were complaining about being under powered, they became creative and found solutions for said problems. Terrans should do the same.Last edit: 2012-03-20 13:37:30 |
| | I can eat alphabet soup and shit a better argument than that. |
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| aBstractx United States. March 20 2012 13:41. Posts 244 | Profile # |
i never blame a race for being overpowered or a map really sucking. i like the difficulty of a challenge even if it isnt fair. i jsut try my best to win. i feel like i can relate balance discussion to the miami heat. the heat are 'op' in a sense but beatable.
high masters protoss~ |
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