Why don't more pros use more spines ZvT?

I've been watching casts on sc2casts.com for awhile and I noticed a lot of high level zergs either get behind or lose their advantage due to the pure dps of terran drops. Wouldn't a couple spine crawlers at each expo help this?

The advantages of spines at expos are:

- More time to react so your hatch doesn't get sniped.
- More mining time. Hatch takes 100 game time seconds to build. At full saturation, this is 800 minerals per minute, aka a max loss of ~1333 minerals in lost mining time. Add in another 350 for the hatch, and you have 1683 in lost minerals just for losing a hatch, NOT including sniped drones.
- Keep a higher effectiveness of army [versus pulling 12-16 lings to deal with a drop]. Only applicable sometimes, if they misposition a drop. Also in the event they misposition a drop, you save precious APM.

Disadvantages/Risks

- Wasted minerals. If they don't drop, you have basically burned 600 minerals per base, wasted minerals could have gone toward army size.

Given that Terran almost always drops in the current meta, isn't it a safe choice to say that Zergs should be building more spines?

Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.

Last edit: 2012-03-20 04:20:28

Grampz United States. March 20 2012 04:24. Posts 2066

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you forgot to add that each spine is a drone lost as well

and players like stephano do put spines at each base late game and you can not drop them

Last edit: 2012-03-20 04:25:16

DelugeSC United States. March 20 2012 04:25. Posts 96

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Given the versatility of drops, it can be very difficult to position Spines so that Marauders can't pick off one quickly and subsequently allow the rest of the drop to shoot at the hatch without getting hurt. Spines are great for creating a wall for ground forces to contend with, but when you have a circular hatch that can be shot from all sides by units from a flying drop-ship, it's sometimes better to take the risk of responding too late than to build 10 spines at a 4th base.

I think that's why, but that's coming from a Terran player; perhaps a Zerg can voice in here?

illuminos March 20 2012 04:26. Posts 28

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On March 20 2012 04:24 Grampz wrote:
you forgot to add that each spine is a drone lost as well

and players like stephano do put spines at each base late game and you can not drop them

It's been a week or so since I played, aren't spines 100 and drones 50? I may just spam spines during my games.

illuminos March 20 2012 04:29. Posts 28

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On March 20 2012 04:25 Seppuku wrote:
Given the versatility of drops, it can be very difficult to position Spines so that Marauders can't pick off one quickly and subsequently allow the rest of the drop to shoot at the hatch without getting hurt. Spines are great for creating a wall for ground forces to contend with, but when you have a circular hatch that can be shot from all sides by units from a flying drop-ship, it's sometimes better to take the risk of responding too late than to build 10 spines at a 4th base.

I think that's why, but that's coming from a Terran player; perhaps a Zerg can voice in here?

Thanks for responding! Appreciate the input.

If you have 1 spine added, that is +300hp effectively (600 hp if they're trying to snipe two!) that they have to go through before they hit the hatch, giving the zerg a higher chance of responding to the drop. Also you reduce the effectiveness of the drop if you happen to kill any units with the spines. That's my logic anyways, could definitely be flawed.

Last edit: 2012-03-20 04:30:17

Whatson United States. March 20 2012 04:30. Posts 4448

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On March 20 2012 04:26 illuminos wrote:

Show nested quote +

It's been a week or so since I played, aren't spines 100 and drones 50? I may just spam spines during my games.

He means that you need to use a drone to create a spine. One or two may not seem like much, but when you drop from 70 to 55 drones because you made like 15 spines, it can become a big deal.
Also, Terrans don't just drop behind your mineral line, but also all around your base sniping whatever tech structures are available. You would have to make so many spines to cover every mining base and all the buildings, etc. And even then, i would just go ovie hunting, or i would drop tanks.

illuminos March 20 2012 04:32. Posts 28

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On March 20 2012 04:30 Whatson wrote:

Show nested quote +

Usually when I plan to make spines, I oversaturate before planting them.

WRT tech: that's true, but imo losing 25-50% of your econ because a hatch went down is much more damaging than losing a tech structure. Usually they have enough dps to maybe put down one tech structure.

Last edit: 2012-03-20 04:34:55

sm0b United States. March 20 2012 04:34. Posts 150

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What I think this comes down to is that some pros are so map aware or at least rely on it being map aware during important games that they don't need the spines. Keep in mind, everything you do in SC2 should be solving a problem or helping you win, if someone needs the extra $$$ or is relying on their map awareness then they don't have a problem that needs to be solved so no spines.

illuminos March 20 2012 04:38. Posts 28

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On March 20 2012 04:34 sm0b wrote:
What I think this comes down to is that some pros are so map aware or at least rely on it being map aware during important games that they don't need the spines. Keep in mind, everything you do in SC2 should be solving a problem or helping you win, if someone needs the extra $$$ or is relying on their map awareness then they don't have a problem that needs to be solved so no spines.

Hmm, that's true. This may just be an issue with certain pros taking certain risks about being able to respond in time / perhaps being overconfident in their game sense then.

Jermstuddog United States. March 20 2012 04:40. Posts 2051

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The thing about spines is... They're just not THAT good.

Building 2 spines is 300 minerals and will not hold off a drop without extra support.

Building an aditional hatch is 350 minerals and provides benefit immediately.

In all, while spines can be nice for delaying a drop from killing a base, you are risking double the minerals for the ability to buy yourself a few extra seconds.

If 2 spines could hold off a Terran drop, they might be a go-to thing, but in their current state, they're generally just too ineffective to be worth it.

As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro

InfO United States. March 20 2012 04:47. Posts 58

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On March 20 2012 04:40 Jermstuddog wrote:
The thing about spines is... They're just not THAT good.

Building 2 spines is 300 minerals and will not hold off a drop without extra support.

Building an aditional hatch is 350 minerals and provides benefit immediately.

In all, while spines can be nice for delaying a drop from killing a base, you are risking double the minerals for the ability to buy yourself a few extra seconds.

If 2 spines could hold off a Terran drop, they might be a go-to thing, but in their current state, they're generally just too ineffective to be worth it.

While spines really arent that great against drops, 2 that are in range of the most often dropped spot at an expansion will definitely get in some kills, and delay long enough for zerglings to get there. 1-2 spines definitely holds on for more than just a few seconds, assuming its a one medivac drop.

I'm a terran who drops all game long, and usually the spines force you to pay much more attention to the drops and try to find spots that aren't guarded by spines. dropping and taking a spine down to half health before lifting isn't much damage, whereas slowly poking down a hatchery is.

Also, i think most drops take out more than just 2 drones each. While its possible for a Terran to just ignore the spine and go for the drones, at the least you'll be dealing a lot of damage to his units if he just takes the spine crawler hits.

Chromodoris Sweden. March 20 2012 04:48. Posts 131

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I know that MVP puts up a lot of spines late game when he smurfs as zerg (and he's very good with zerg). Something like 6 spines per base since it stops drops and makes drops, which are terrans best weapon again late game zerg, almost useless. Sure it's a lot of money but one of the best terrans in the world thinks it's worth it.

Nudibranchs are awesome. ♥ ThorZaIN.

frietjeman Netherlands. March 20 2012 04:49. Posts 26

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@Jermstuddog
I think you're missing the point of spine crawlers. They're there to delay the drop from killing the hatch, not to prevent it.
If you have 2 spine crawlers at a base then that should give you enough time to bring lings over before they kill the hatch.

I also think that lower level players, and with that I mean pretty much under diamond players, should not worry too much about making spines. Pros don't do it because they have great map awareness and generally static defenses are are just horrible.
For people that either don't have great map awareness, or don't have perfect macro (in zerg's case that's generally gas-starved and mineral heavy) I don't think placing a few spines is too bad a decision. Low level opponents won't be playing perfectly either, it's not the game of min-maxing like it is in top level play, but losing a hatch can be devastating.

Last edit: 2012-03-20 04:50:54

illuminos March 20 2012 04:50. Posts 28

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Serious question, what if you put up 8 spines? cost = 1200, net +470 minerals if you're certain they will try to drop your base (including lost mining time)

illuminos March 20 2012 04:52. Posts 28

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On March 20 2012 04:48 Chromodoris wrote:
I know that MVP puts up a lot of spines late game when he smurfs as zerg (and he's very good with zerg). Something like 6 spines per base since it stops drops and makes drops, which are terrans best weapon again late game zerg, almost useless. Sure it's a lot of money but one of the best terrans in the world thinks it's worth it.

Hm, I may need to watch higher level matches, haha. So far most of the stuff I watch is from sc2casts.

Adtor Canada. March 20 2012 04:52. Posts 41

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No matter how many spines you put, 8 or 16 stimed/healed marines will tear them in seconds.

The medevac is the most dangerous and valuable in a drop. So I usually put 2 spines and 2 well placed spore so that if he drops, he will lose the medevac and it's well enough to discourage the drop, force him to drop in a remote location that will deal less damage or will be forced to engage the spines without medevac's support.

Note that I do that in a later game where I am usually floating on 4k minerals and there is nothing to spend it on. And again, it depends on the map and base's size.

Nachtwind Germany. March 20 2012 04:52. Posts 563

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On March 20 2012 04:19 illuminos wrote:
I've been watching casts on sc2casts.com for awhile and I noticed a lot of high level zergs either get behind or lose their advantage due to the pure dps of terran drops. Wouldn't a couple spine crawlers at each expo help this?

The advantages of spines at expos are:

Disadvantages/Risks

- Wasted minerals. If they don't drop, you have basically burned 600 minerals per base, wasted minerals could have gone toward army size.

Given that Terran almost always drops in the current meta, isn't it a safe choice to say that Zergs should be building more spines?

Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.

Should add ->> spine = drone = larva
It´s not the Minerals that are the problem in my eyes when it comes to the mid early game though
lategame is another story but then there are units on the field with upgrades that make spines burst in seconds
but they are good to delay drops etc to get your troops to the hatches

Last edit: 2012-03-20 04:58:49

invisible tetris level master

frietjeman Netherlands. March 20 2012 04:55. Posts 26

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On March 20 2012 04:50 illuminos wrote:

Show nested quote +

Serious question, what if you put up 8 spines? cost = 1200, net +470 minerals if you're certain they will try to drop your base (including lost mining time)

If you're CERTAIN they're gonna drop there, you can bring 10 lings there to kill marines the moment they unload and that's not gonna cost you anything cause you're gonna have lings anyway.
Spine crawlers are just there for delaying a potential drop so that you can react with army. You should never have enough static defenses to deal with a good drop/raid before the very late game where you start reaching 2k+ minerals. It would make your army/economy terrible.

illuminos March 20 2012 04:56. Posts 28

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On March 20 2012 04:55 frietjeman wrote:

Show nested quote +

True, this is way more cost efficient.

Last edit: 2012-03-20 04:57:07

IMPrime United States. March 20 2012 05:13. Posts 449

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I would say if you have 3 or less bases you should not have spines if possible.

Once you get 4+ and you start transitioning into BLs (or ultras) and your army becomes immobile and you float tons of minerals, I don't see the harm in plopping down tons of spines.

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