Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks!
| Ryuu314 United States. April 18 2012 04:15. Posts 5310 | Profile # |
On April 18 2012 04:10 Mogwai wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 04:04 Two_DoWn wrote:
Single most important change at this point is a switch to dota style bans. It would open up top lane SO much more.
how do dota bans work? I was a pretty casual dota player and just played AR and AP.
Ban and pick phase are split into two each so it goes
Ban Phase 1
1-1-1-1-1-1
Pick Phase 1
1-2-2-1
Ban Phase 2
1-1
Pick Phase 2
1-1
This allows for more targeted bans and lets you play mind games on the other team regarding what your team comp is going to be like.Last edit: 2012-04-18 04:16:54 |
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| Mogwai United States. April 18 2012 04:18. Posts 8012 | Profile Blog # |
| ok, so both teams would pick their bot lane and jungle asap and then nothing changes for CPing the solo lanes except that now 1 team gets to CP both solos? |
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| Ryuu314 United States. April 18 2012 04:27. Posts 5310 | Profile # |
On April 18 2012 04:18 Mogwai wrote:
ok, so both teams would pick their bot lane and jungle asap and then nothing changes for CPing the solo lanes except that now 1 team gets to CP both solos?
Well jungling is optional and lane set ups are rather fluid. What usually happens is in the first pick phase teams pick the fotm OP champs and/or champions that are solid and fit into any comp, usually the supports. The thing is though, in DotA supports are probably the most important roles and teams usually have 3+ support heroes. Then second ban phase is to ban out potential counter picks. Second pick phase is for more situational heroes or counter picks.
So in LoL terms, first ban phase you'd ban like Shen, Udyr stuff that's routinely top ban. First pick phase you'd take champions like Janna who work in any team comp and are just solid picks overall, but not banworthy. Second ban phase you'd target bans; so say you want to run an aoe centric team, you'd ban out Janna during this phase. Second pick phase would be to pick up more situational picks that flesh out your comp, but are easily countered; like Amumu for aoe comps if the other team doens't have strong counterjunglers/you have strong lanes or Kassadin if the other team doesn't have people who can lane against him. Second pick phase can also be for counterpicks like picking a Teemo if they have a Singed or something.Last edit: 2012-04-18 04:33:24 |
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| Cixah United States. April 18 2012 04:38. Posts 938 | Profile # |
On April 18 2012 04:15 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 04:10 Mogwai wrote:
On April 18 2012 04:04 Two_DoWn wrote:
Single most important change at this point is a switch to dota style bans. It would open up top lane SO much more.
how do dota bans work? I was a pretty casual dota player and just played AR and AP.
Ban and pick phase are split into two each so it goes Ban Phase 1 1-1-1-1-1-1 Pick Phase 1 1-2-2-1 Ban Phase 2 1-1 Pick Phase 2 1-1 This allows for more targeted bans and lets you play mind games on the other team regarding what your team comp is going to be like.
Dota 2 has 5 bans, added to the 2nd ban phase. |
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| cascades Singapore. April 18 2012 04:38. Posts 4365 | Profile Blog # |
| Jungling optional. Sure. Play too much dota? |
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| PrinceXizor United States. April 18 2012 04:40. Posts 4354 | Profile Blog # |
| yeah dota ban setup allows for very good team comps consistently. |
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| seRapH United States. April 18 2012 04:41. Posts 8243 | Profile Blog # |
On April 18 2012 04:38 cascades wrote:
Jungling optional. Sure. Play too much dota?
But jungling is optional in dota... >_> |
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| Ryuu314 United States. April 18 2012 04:42. Posts 5310 | Profile # |
On April 18 2012 04:38 cascades wrote:
Jungling optional. Sure. Play too much dota?
I meant jungling is optional in DotA.
You do see junglers often, but it's not necessary in DotA at all. Without a jungler you can run two dual lanes (somewhat uncommon), a trilane, or have dedicated roamers. It doesn't help that junglers are routinely banned in DotA (like Lycan and Enchant) and the vast majority of heroes can't jungle effectively if at all.
Also, team comps in DotA have more of a overall game plan than team comps in LoL. Competitive LoL is moving away from the whole pick whatever you can play mentality into a more goal-oriented mentality like poke comps and such, but for the most part general, overarching game plans are more or less the same. In DotA, comps have specific purposes, like comps that aim at pushing extremely hard to secure a big lead early, comps that emphasize ganking, or turtling comps that are built around a hyper carry. Since team comps tend to have more clear-cut goals in mind, counter picking is very important in that you don't just want to counter pick lanes, but you counter pick entire strategies.Last edit: 2012-04-18 04:46:12 |
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| Kaniol Poland. April 18 2012 04:43. Posts 3094 | Profile Blog # |
On April 18 2012 04:41 seRapH wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 04:38 cascades wrote:
Jungling optional. Sure. Play too much dota?
But jungling is optional in dota... >_>
But Smash described what would have happened if LoL had DOTA-style bans. |
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| Juicyfruit Canada. April 18 2012 04:44. Posts 3477 | Profile # |
| I just don't feel like LoL pros are versatile enough with their champion choices that strategic bans are better than player-specific bans as of now. |
| | Do not hate me because I am better than you. There are people better than me as well; go hate them. |
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| Ryuu314 United States. April 18 2012 04:48. Posts 5310 | Profile # |
On April 18 2012 04:43 Kaniol wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 04:41 seRapH wrote:
On April 18 2012 04:38 cascades wrote:
Jungling optional. Sure. Play too much dota?
But jungling is optional in dota... >_>
But Smash described what would have happened if LoL had DOTA-style bans.
Well, I'd imagine that if LoL had DotA style bans, you would be able to see situational champs a lot more frequently. Like say the enemy team doesn't have particularly strong lanes or strong counterjunglers and you want to run a teamfighting, aoe-centric comp. You would be able to pick Amumu in the second picking phase without fear of being counterpicked too hard.
But the problem with LoL right now is that the optimal lane set-up and the metagame makes it so that lanes and roles are more or less rather set in stone, so while DotA-style bans would be cool, I don't think it'd all all that much more complexity.Last edit: 2012-04-18 04:50:15 |
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| ManyCookies April 18 2012 04:50. Posts 627 | Profile # |
| So in the DOTA system, both teams ban 3->pick 3->ban 2->pick 2? Last edit: 2012-04-18 04:50:27 |
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| Ryuu314 United States. April 18 2012 04:51. Posts 5310 | Profile # | |
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| Juicyfruit Canada. April 18 2012 04:52. Posts 3477 | Profile # |
On April 18 2012 04:48 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 04:43 Kaniol wrote:
On April 18 2012 04:41 seRapH wrote:
On April 18 2012 04:38 cascades wrote:
Jungling optional. Sure. Play too much dota?
But jungling is optional in dota... >_>
But Smash described what would have happened if LoL had DOTA-style bans.
Well, I'd imagine that if LoL had DotA style bans, you would be able to see situational champs a lot more frequently. Like say the enemy team doesn't have particularly strong lanes or strong counterjunglers and you want to run a teamfighting, aoe-centric comp. You would be able to pick Amumu in the second picking phase without fear of being counterpicked too hard.
You can do that now with 4/5th picks though. Adding an extra set of bans can at best get rid of 1 very glaring counter.
What I feel like dota-style bans is force even more ambiguous early-picks with no clear team-strategy just because the risk of the second set of bans getting rid of a key component of a team.
It might just be the catalyst that forces players to be comfortable with a lot more champions before a tournament though. Last edit: 2012-04-18 04:55:21 |
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| Gorsameth Netherlands. April 18 2012 04:52. Posts 1976 | Profile # |
Also with close to 100 champions it can be hard to ban at times. There are so many possible setups and viable champions that bans are often against players because there are to many options to ban strats.
By adding a second ban phase you allow for bans to target comps so if you see the enemy pick Nid/Trundle/Janna you can ban kog to weaken there poke comp ect.
Right now once your 3 bans are done you have no idea what comp the enemy wants to run and no idea if any of the bans were even usefull. |
| | Fear is the keenest blade |
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| Ryuu314 United States. April 18 2012 04:54. Posts 5310 | Profile # |
On April 18 2012 04:52 Juicyfruit wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 04:48 Ryuu314 wrote:
On April 18 2012 04:43 Kaniol wrote:
On April 18 2012 04:41 seRapH wrote:
On April 18 2012 04:38 cascades wrote:
Jungling optional. Sure. Play too much dota?
But jungling is optional in dota... >_>
But Smash described what would have happened if LoL had DOTA-style bans.
Well, I'd imagine that if LoL had DotA style bans, you would be able to see situational champs a lot more frequently. Like say the enemy team doesn't have particularly strong lanes or strong counterjunglers and you want to run a teamfighting, aoe-centric comp. You would be able to pick Amumu in the second picking phase without fear of being counterpicked too hard.
You can do that now with 4/5th picks though. Adding an extra set of bans can at best get rid of 1 very glaring counter. What I feel like dota-style bans is force even more ambiguous early-picks with no clear team-strategy just because the risk of the second set of bans getting rid of a key component of a team.
That's the whole point. Doing DotA-style bans allows you to try to figure out what the other team is attempting to do and use the second ban/pick phase the mess up their team comp. As it is right now, you ban 3 champions and you honestly have no clue if the other team was even planning on running those in the first place. |
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| Kaniol Poland. April 18 2012 04:56. Posts 3094 | Profile Blog # |
| Viktor free this week, pretty sure he will be -50% RP next week. Usually a week after the new champ's 2. appearance in free rotation it's -50%. At least it was the case with the champs i bought with RP :S |
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| Two_DoWn United States. April 18 2012 05:01. Posts 7269 | Profile Blog # |
On April 18 2012 04:54 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 04:52 Juicyfruit wrote:
On April 18 2012 04:48 Ryuu314 wrote:
On April 18 2012 04:43 Kaniol wrote:
On April 18 2012 04:41 seRapH wrote:
On April 18 2012 04:38 cascades wrote:
Jungling optional. Sure. Play too much dota?
But jungling is optional in dota... >_>
But Smash described what would have happened if LoL had DOTA-style bans.
Well, I'd imagine that if LoL had DotA style bans, you would be able to see situational champs a lot more frequently. Like say the enemy team doesn't have particularly strong lanes or strong counterjunglers and you want to run a teamfighting, aoe-centric comp. You would be able to pick Amumu in the second picking phase without fear of being counterpicked too hard.
You can do that now with 4/5th picks though. Adding an extra set of bans can at best get rid of 1 very glaring counter. What I feel like dota-style bans is force even more ambiguous early-picks with no clear team-strategy just because the risk of the second set of bans getting rid of a key component of a team.
That's the whole point. Doing DotA-style bans allows you to try to figure out what the other team is attempting to do and use the second ban/pick phase the mess up their team comp. As it is right now, you ban 3 champions and you honestly have no clue if the other team was even planning on running those in the first place.
And to be fair, ATM most teams already throw out 3 semi-ambiguous picks (jungle, bot) then whoever gets last pick gets to counterpick top lane.
Switching to Dota style enable you to prevent getting counterpicked as hard, or reach for champs that have a few specific counters and make sure to get rid of them. |
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| -Zoda- France. April 18 2012 05:22. Posts 1067 | Profile Blog # |
I don't really know Dota very well, so I can't tell much but I feel like LoL champs are much more versatile in general. Like, between Ez, Trist and Corki, there are'nt any huge difference. They all hit with autos and have an escape skill and have some poke skills or not, but nothing hugely gamechanging.
Whereas in DotA, as far as I can tell, you can get an hypercarry in your team and you comp will be chosen around it (like tank Kog Dignitas did at IPL). But why would you run a team like this in LoL when you can get 3-4 bruisers M5 style and win ezpz with good team coordination ? |
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| NotTheMonker United States. April 18 2012 05:25. Posts 108 | Profile Blog # |
| How do people feel about buying a pink ward on first back when playing solo top? It seems like it would be good if you kill their river ward, and so you force them to play more passive or risk being ganked. |
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