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| BlueKatz March 22 2012 01:16. Posts 68 | Profile # |
I'm playing as Zerg and doing a lot of FE (Gold). However I have problem against builds like 6 pool, proxy gates or cannon rush... I didn't face any kind of cheeses from Terran however as T before I think Proxy Rax, Reaper or more commonly Bunker can be dangerous.
So what should I do against such builds when FE, assuming I couldn't scout perfectly.
Should I get Speedling or Roach? To be honest I prefer Roach over Speed in P and Z. So when should I get Speedling in P and Z and should I get Roaches in T?
How much Spine Crawler should I get and how soon should I put down 1 Spine Crawler just in case?
What should I do with the FE? Should I cancel it? |
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| 00Visor March 22 2012 01:25. Posts 4067 | Profile Blog # |
What kind of FE are you doing? Hatch first?
There is a reason most players don't go for hatch first in ZvZ and ZvP. Its pretty safe only in ZvT.
And are you expanding to a gold base. Thats pretty risky as well and hard to defend because its far from your main.
Go Pool first in ZvZ/ZvP and scout early. Then you should be fine with (speed)lings and spine crawlers. Roaches would be late for cheese.
Its always good to get a hatch at around ~21 supply, if you can. But its mainly because you need the larvae. You should not try to saturate your 2 bases if your opponent goes for 1base play.
If you expect a gateway attact from Protoss, spines will be very cost effective. You can put up several (3-4). Against Banelings you may want 1-2 spines as well.
If you think you can't get enough to defend your expansion in time, you should cancel it of course. You may have not enough larvae to spend your minerals then, but you get spine crawlers and an additional queen, for example.
(if you are not starve for minerals you may also wait until your opponent has almost killed your expansion before cancelling it. that delays the attack)Last edit: 2012-03-22 01:36:08 |
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| romelako United States. March 22 2012 01:41. Posts 370 | Profile Blog # |
There really is no hard counter to an aggressive, cheesy style vs. a greedy macro style. If you drop a 15 hatch and he proxy two-gates you in your natural, I would consider that a BO loss just because you really delay your pool by dropping your hatchery first and you're going to be -300 minerals + 1 drone + 1 larva because he'll kill your hatchery.
Obviously that's probably the worst-case scenario, but these strategies are designed to punish greedy play. The only exception I'd make here would be against Terran and a proxy 2-rax just because the creep at the natural is necessary for static defenses.
What do you do? You can drone scout, but even if you do, your opening is usually already decided. You kind of take a gamble by going for such a fast hatchery. The only fool-proof way to prevent losses due to this kind of early-game cheese is to open safely (namely, 14/14, or even 14 pool 15 hatch).
You never want to go roach early vs. Protoss unless he's doing some kind of all-in. They're really expensive in the early game and really cut into your economy. Asking if you should get speedling in ZvP is like asking if you should get speedling in ZvZ. Yes, of course.
Asking if you should get roaches in ZvT is way too broad of a question. It's all up to what the terran is doing. Yes, there are pros that like to mix in roaches in their composition, but if you're going just pure roach vs. a non-mech T, you're doing it all wrong.
Spine crawlers are reactive. One spine crawler in the natural is generally safe and allows you to drone. Additional spines are dependent upon your opponent's actions.
Cancel it? What's your opponent doing?
EDIT: Replays?Last edit: 2012-03-22 01:43:06 |
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| lhr0909 United States. March 22 2012 02:12. Posts 531 | Profile Blog # |
Since there is no replays, I am just going to put in how I deal with most of the rushes:
ZvP: 14 pool 16 hatch (15 gas if your 10th drone scouts gateway)
if you see proxy 2 gate (or 2 gate), stop taking gas (or only put 1 in gas) and get 1-2 spines, 1-2 queens, and as many lings as you need to hold off. creep spread out to make sure you can expand.
ZvZ: 14 gas 14 pool and scout with your 10th drone.
if you scout 10 pool or earlier pool timing, stop taking gas or take gas with only 1 drone, and get 1 overlord and start saving larvae. By the time lings come, your pool should finish, and immediately build 1 spine in your mineral line, put all larvae into lings, and build 1 queen if you have the money left. juggle the lings with your drones until your lings pop and try not to take too much loss when you fight with drones. By the time lings pop you should be able to win the fight with ling queen spine. keep making lings in the process. |
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| ArcticRaven France. March 22 2012 02:23. Posts 1165 | Profile # |
Don't stop FE'ing. You're in Gold, it works vs everything and it's the best option. Just scout more, and it will be ok. Scout even with the ninth or tenth drone if you don't feel secure - anyway your FE will compensate for that, and remember that scouted cheese is win, with FE or not. 6-pool will be hard to defend against, but hey, that's ZvZ jungle  even then, just scout earlier, and throw your pool if you see one in his base. |
| | [EatThePath] I call assassins as my faction. Please tell me we can all agree that in the version of history, Steppes of War will be Jerusalem. |
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| thekoalaz United States. March 22 2012 02:31. Posts 26 | Profile # | |
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| BlueKatz March 22 2012 04:13. Posts 68 | Profile # |
Sorry about the no replays I'm not on computer with Sc, also the last time I get cheesed is when I screwed my build, but I was a bit shocked seeing 2 Zealot hit at 5 Minutes so I'm not really sure how's the most effective way to hold that.
Also this is a general question about FE vs cheese, not specific case, I'm not really sure if I can post it here.
In ZvZ I normally go 11 Overpool, advice from 1 of my friend, and then get roach, 1 crawler and take expansion. I don't think I have specific build for my ZvZ though since it's so confusing sometime.
(The time I FE vs Z is when I thought he was Protoss so I guess that won't count)
For FE I normally go 15/15 Pool hatch. I'm not sure if 14 or 15 Pool is better.
Also are you sure FE vs Toss is not good? I think it's working very well unless they cheese.
Also tx answering about the speedling and roach thing. I guess I will have to rethink about my priority about it. |
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| lodeet United States. March 22 2012 05:13. Posts 146 | Profile # |
You should FE against toss and every other match-up. With Zerg you NEED that 2nd hatch up as soon as you can manage.
14 pool 15 or 16 hatch.
The only thing toss can do is either cannon cheese or proxy 2 gate both of which can be easily defended if scouted.
cannons can be denied with drones and using 1 drone to patrol the bottom of your ramp will prevent wall-ins. If you scout proxy 2 gate or drone scout at 13 supply and see nothing in his then its proxy gate you can easily throw up 2 spines and deny his cheese.
VS Zerg I use a defensive bling opening I learned from destiny. It is a really strong economic build and since i started using it I win about 90% if not more ZvZ.
14 pool 16 hatch.
Then it's Queen, Drone, OL, Gas, Drone, spinecrawler then another queen right when the first one pops. This is how Destiny taught it however I gas before OL. So it would be Queen, Drone, Gas, Drone, OL, Spinecrawler.
When you overlord pops and you make your second queen make 2 sets of lings and transfer your spinecrawler to your natural. Put down a bling nest when you hit 50 gas. Then get speed afterwards. This build denies 14/14 into 21 hatch and any other type of early pool. If your opponent opens 15 hatch you will have your queens up a lot faster and get those injects going to stay on par with drone production.
Here's a replay of this opening vs 14/14 opening. http://drop.sc/139617
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