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The Affordable Healthcare Act in the U.S. Supreme Court

Forum Index > General Forum 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102
This topic is not about the American Invasion of Iraq. Stop. - Page 23
 
 EtherealDeath   United States. March 23 2012 13:57. Posts 8158
Profile Blog # 
UPDATE: Supreme Court upholds ACA with mandate, does not uphold a section regarding states and medicaid, which affects coverage of people below the poverty line.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/supreme-court-to-rule-thursday-on-health-care-law/2012/06/28/gJQAarRm8V_story.html

If you don't know what "Obamacare" is, read up on the wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act .

Starting on Monday, from March 26-28, the Supreme Court will be hearing oral arguments on Florida v. United States Department of Health and Human Services, with a decision sometime in June. This is probably one of the most anticipated cases in recent times, with huge implications both primarily on the future health care infrastructure of the United States and secondarily on the limits of the federal government's powers. It will also be an unusually long case, with nearly 6 hours of oral arguments scheduled.

An exposition of the plaintiffs' view of the case, in the words of David B. Rivkin Jr.and Lee A. Casey, who represented the 26 states in before the trial and appellate courts:
+ Show Spoiler +

An opinion piece in defense of Obamacare's constitutionality by Nathan Cortez, law professor at Southern Methodist University:
+ Show Spoiler +

Excerpt from United States Court of Appeals, District of Columbia (Republican dominated), upholding ACA (Affordable Care Act, aka "Obamacare")
+ Show Spoiler +

Debate between professors at Harvard Law School about this case: http://www.law.harvard.edu/news/spotlight/constitutional-law/is-obama-health-care-reform-constitutional.html?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

Initially when Obamacare was passed, it was expected that it would be brought to court, and eventually to the Supreme Court, but expectations were that it would be a rather quickly decided case, with the law being upheld. However, Florida v. United States Department of Health and Human Services changed that when US District Judge Robert Vinson ruled that the individualized mandate in Obamacare falls outside federal authority as outlined in the Constitution. His arguments are reflected in the opinion piece by Rivkin and Casey above. The Supreme Court case is now expected to be decided 5-4.

In short, there are 3 summary points which are important concerning the plaintiffs' case.
1) There is a distinction between group and individual mandates, with the latter being reserved for the states. Thus you see that when immunizations are mandatory, those mandates are given at the state level as opposed to the federal level. Similarly, other individual mandates like drivers' licenses are also done at the state level.

2) Gonzales v. Raich allowed the federal government to criminalize homegrown cannabis even if the grower has a license within a state to grow it for medical purposes. One might consider this an individual mandate, but the decision was tied to the commerce clause, with emphasis that homegrown cannabis is only a step removed from the interstate highways. Thus it is the substance that is being regulated, rather than the individual, and so is not an individual mandate.

3) Obamacare is seen to step over this bound and place a mandate on the individual. It is difficult to say that Obamacare is regulating anything but individuals, since essentially it is inactivity (not having healthcare) that is being criminalized, thus it is unlikely that there is a regulated substance of some sort in play. Instead we have an individual mandate, and that traditionally has been upheld to be beyond the powers of the federal congress, namely Congress.

In defense, the point which much of the argument revolves around - whether an individual mandate forcing activity is constitutionally backed by the Commerce Clause or other dormant, necessary, or proper clauses related to its execution, is answered in the affirmative. While it is admitted that there is little or no precedent similar to the case in hand, it is argued that there is no real distinction between the regulation of inactivity or activity in the Constitution. Alternatively, it may also be argued, alone or in conjunction with the previous statement, that healthcare is a uniquely special field in that nearly all people will eventually enter into it. The reason for the lack of precedence is not a constitutional one, but rather a political one, as the quite obvious unease which can be found in the act's prescriptions demonstrates.

One thing should be kept clear - it is agreed that it is not unconstitutional for the government to implement a nationwide healthcare plan wherein all citizens contribute. However, the most obviously constitutional method for this to be done is in the form of taxation, where there is currently no political will to do so. It is the method which is under attack under constitutional grounds, not necessarily the end result.

I'll be watching this case with a good bit of curiosity. My friend who is a med student says that Obamacare is great, and his colleagues at the university love it. On the other hand, might it be unconstitutional for the federal government to create such a law, even if it is good?
Last edit: 2012-06-29 09:28:26
SC2: Kasu.767 ////////// Dota 2: 1a2a3a
Old Post

 
 EtherealDeath   United States. March 23 2012 13:59. Posts 8158
Profile Blog # 
And a couple of opinion polls...

Poll: Do you approve of Obamacare?

Yes (666)
 
59%

No (441)
 
39%

No Opinion (29)
 
3%

1136 total votes

Your vote: Do you approve of Obamacare?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): No Opinion


Poll: Do you think it is constitutional?

No (461)
 
49%

Yes (346)
 
37%

No Opinion (126)
 
14%

933 total votes

Your vote: Do you think it is constitutional?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): No Opinion

SC2: Kasu.767 ////////// Dota 2: 1a2a3a
Old Post

 
 dAPhREAk   Nauru. March 23 2012 14:01. Posts 8698
Profile Blog # 
cost of my health care went up after this passed. coverage didnt. i am curious to see how the supreme court will handle it, but i doubt the cost of my health care is going to change even if its ruled unconstitutional (fucking insurance companies).
*
Old Post

 
 Zooper31   United States. March 23 2012 14:03. Posts 3426
Profile # 
Why do people call it Obamacare :/
Asato ma sad gamaya, tamaso ma jyotir gamaya, mrtyor mamrtam gamaya
Old Post

 
 xDaunt   United States. March 23 2012 14:04. Posts 4413
Profile # 
This case will likely be the most important case in a generation. Given the current make up of the Court, I'd be shocked if the individual mandate survived. The real question is whether the Court will find that the individual mandate is so integral to Obamacare as a whole that the whole law must be stricken.
Old Post

 
 phosphorylation   March 23 2012 14:05. Posts 2651
Profile Blog # 
What would be the practical effects to the public and health care practicioners if the law were to be passed?
Old Post

 
 sc14s   United States. March 23 2012 14:08. Posts 3110
Profile # 
I approve of obamacare even if its still a retarded capitalistic way of going about it.. it still is a step in the right direction.
Jaedong, Drg, Parting, Moon <3
Old Post

 
 forgottendreams   United States. March 23 2012 14:09. Posts 1748
Profile # 
As usual in a extremely tense case like this the power lies in Justice Anthony Kennedy....

I'd be slightly surprised if it's struck down, it can rely on two different clauses for survival if need be.
Old Post

 
 EtherealDeath   United States. March 23 2012 14:10. Posts 8158
Profile Blog # 

On March 23 2012 14:05 phosphorylation wrote:
What would be the practical effects to the public and health care practicioners if the law were to be passed?


I'm no expert on it, so I'll copy paste the relevant wiki entry for you.

+ Show Spoiler +
SC2: Kasu.767 ////////// Dota 2: 1a2a3a
Old Post

 
 EtherealDeath   United States. March 23 2012 14:12. Posts 8158
Profile Blog # 

On March 23 2012 14:03 Zooper31 wrote:
Why do people call it Obamacare :/


It's the most commonly recognizable name for it, since Obama promised it in his election campaign and then delivered it. Same reason people call Romneycare Romneycare.
SC2: Kasu.767 ////////// Dota 2: 1a2a3a
Old Post

 
 Signet   United States. March 23 2012 14:12. Posts 1664
Profile # 

On March 23 2012 14:04 xDaunt wrote:
This case will likely be the most important case in a generation. Given the current make up of the Court, I'd be shocked if the individual mandate survived. The real question is whether the Court will find that the individual mandate is so integral to Obamacare as a whole that the whole law must be stricken.

My thoughts as well.

If the individual mandate is stricken but the other parts remain intact, it will be interesting to see how that affects the insurance industry. Most actuaries believe that an individual mandate is critical to the system if we are going to require that insurers cannot reject people with pre-existing conditions. Otherwise, healthier people will drop their coverage, leading to exponential growth in premiums. (well, moreso than we have already)

If the entire law is stricken, I think within the next 12 years we will have some sort of broad expansion of Medicare/Medicaid, as a growing percent of the population is unable to afford coverage. There is already a broad consensus that people should be able to get insurance coverage even if they are in poor health, and without requiring insurers to accept these applicants, that leaves state-run high-risk pools or some level of single payer as the remaining alternatives.
Old Post

 
 dAPhREAk   Nauru. March 23 2012 14:15. Posts 8698
Profile Blog # 

On March 23 2012 14:12 Signet wrote:

Show nested quote +


My thoughts as well.

If the individual mandate is stricken but the other parts remain intact, it will be interesting to see how that affects the insurance industry. Most actuaries believe that an individual mandate is critical to the system if we are going to require that insurers cannot reject people with pre-existing conditions. Otherwise, healthier people will drop their coverage, leading to exponential growth in premiums. (well, moreso than we have already)

If the entire law is stricken, I think within the next 12 years we will have some sort of broad expansion of Medicare/Medicaid, as a growing percent of the population is unable to afford coverage. There is already a broad consensus that people should be able to get insurance coverage even if they are in poor health, and without requiring insurers to accept these applicants, that leaves state-run high-risk pools or some level of single payer as the remaining alternatives.

if there is no individual mandate, people will wait until they get sick to get coverage. and guess who gets to pay higher premiums! (i think this is what you are saying, so apologies for stating the obvious).
*
Old Post

 
 Kuja   United States. March 23 2012 14:16. Posts 1743
Profile Blog # 
The healthcare system is so broken; I for one am not in favor of obama-care. If people are important to society they will be able to pay their medical bills. If they're not i don't want to pay them for them. Seems to be moving closer to socialism everyday. Away from democracy.
BITCH DON'T KILL MY VIBE
Old Post

 
 EtherealDeath   United States. March 23 2012 14:17. Posts 8158
Profile Blog # 

On March 23 2012 14:15 dAPhREAk wrote:

Show nested quote +


if there is no individual mandate, people will wait until they get sick to get coverage. and guess who gets to pay higher premiums! (i think this is what you are saying, so apologies for stating the obvious).


In essence the ideological foundation that Obama promised and delivered would be undercut. So, whatever victory might be had would in the end not be the political victory that would be wanted, economic effects aside.
SC2: Kasu.767 ////////// Dota 2: 1a2a3a
Old Post

 
 EtherealDeath   United States. March 23 2012 14:19. Posts 8158
Profile Blog # 

On March 23 2012 14:16 Kuja wrote:
The healthcare system is so broken; I for one am not in favor of obama-care. If people are important to society they will be able to pay their medical bills. If they're not i don't want to pay them for them. Seems to be moving closer to socialism everyday. Away from democracy.


You realize socialism is an economic policy whereas democracy is a government organization policy? You can't even directly compare the two. Not to mention that the US is a representational republic and not a democracy.
SC2: Kasu.767 ////////// Dota 2: 1a2a3a
Old Post

  0neder   United States. March 23 2012 14:20. Posts 3732Profile # 
It is both unconstitutional and will make healthcare in America more expensive and time rationed. A lose lose. Hopefully the court is sensible here and maintains individual sovereignty.
Old Post

 
 Kaitlin   United States. March 23 2012 14:20. Posts 2200
Profile # 
Doctors can pick and choose what coverage they accept. So, while many people will have 'coverage', I wish them the best of luck in finding providers to care for them. Health Care Insurance isn't much good without Health Care Providers.
Old Post

 
 Kuja   United States. March 23 2012 14:23. Posts 1743
Profile Blog # 

On March 23 2012 14:19 EtherealDeath wrote:

Show nested quote +



You realize socialism is an economic policy whereas democracy is a government organization policy? You can't even directly compare the two. Not to mention that the US is a representational republic and not a democracy.
If you've ever studied a bit of history you will realize the two are highly intertwined. As for the second part, don't play semantics with me, boy.
BITCH DON'T KILL MY VIBE
Old Post

 
 semantics   March 23 2012 14:24. Posts 8561
Profile Blog # 

On March 23 2012 14:23 Kuja wrote:

Show nested quote +

If you've ever studied a bit of history you will realize the two are highly intertwined. As for the second part, don't play semantics with me, boy.


do, do play semantics in the courts it's all about semantics.
Old Post

 
 Kuja   United States. March 23 2012 14:25. Posts 1743
Profile Blog # 

On March 23 2012 14:24 semantics wrote:

Show nested quote +


do, do play semantics in the courts it's all about semantics.

I forgot TL was a court of law. My bad.
BITCH DON'T KILL MY VIBE
Old Post

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