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 scintilliaSD United States. March 24 2012 09:36. Posts 2197 | Profile Blog # | |
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| Skeggaba Korea (South). March 24 2012 09:44. Posts 1509 | Profile Blog # | |
| | Bisu[about JD]=I was scared (laughs). The force emanating from his facial expression was so manly that I was even a little jealous. |  |
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| SkimGuy Canada. March 24 2012 09:48. Posts 656 | Profile # |
| It's going to be so weird, watching like S class players play a game of BW then B class players playing a game of SC2 xd |
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| UndoneJin United States. March 24 2012 09:48. Posts 431 | Profile # |
| This is stupid, I want an SC2 proleague but not like this...just makes a mockery of both games. |
| | Heero Yuy - I've been lost since the day I was born ----- You're gonna carry that weight |  |
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| Ribbon United States. March 24 2012 10:00. Posts 5020 | Profile Blog # |
On March 24 2012 09:13 Golgotha wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 09:03 Ribbon wrote:
On March 24 2012 08:15 shaftofpleasure wrote:
On March 24 2012 08:14 huehuehuehue wrote:
On March 24 2012 08:02 supernovamaniac wrote:
On March 24 2012 08:01 puppykiller wrote:
What I want to know is does this mean that we are going to have English BW commentary? And if we do is it going to come from someone who knows how to play BW, and not some D- sc2 caster attempting to understand BW, or is it going to be Artosis/Day 9/ Tasteless?
Hopefully that doesn't happen. I might even cast the full sets if not that many people cast BW (restream that is, unless we have official English casters)
Well Moletrap is casting LoL for OGN, he used to cast BW.
Woah. FOREAL?
Moletrap is only casting because he cast BW for a time. His SC2 casts are literally narrating the events on the screen.
On March 24 2012 08:18 Fischbacher wrote:
On March 24 2012 08:02 arb wrote:
On March 24 2012 07:31 cuppatea wrote:
On March 24 2012 07:23 Wohmfg wrote:
On March 24 2012 07:16 cuppatea wrote:
I'm trying to point out that the top players in SC2 are no less dominant than those in BW (Flash excluded) and thus the frequent "SC2 is too easy/too random for players to win consistently" claims on here have no merit.
The SC2 sample sizes are smaller. Come back and make that argument when the sample sizes are similar.
All I did was refute the following claim, which I frequently see passed off as fact on these boards: "the ceiling is much easier to reach. this is why you have "top" sc2 players that are great at the game but cannot show consistent/dominant results against other top players" If we look at the win rates of top players in both games then I'm right when I say there's no evidence to support that claim. If, instead, we say that the sample size is too small to be used as evidence... then I'm right when I say there's no evidence to support that claim.
So giving win rates based on a tiny sample size of games vs hundreds of Bw games "refutes" the claim? lol no.
It indicates that there is no evidence for the initial claim. It doesn't prove that WoL is as stable as BW, but it seems to indicate that they are probably comparable. Sure, we won't know for sure until half a decade from now, but from the stats we have now it still seems like nobody has come close to WoL's skill ceiling yet and that good players can still differentiate themselves on a comparable (I said comparable) level as BW pros. Point is, there is no proof that WoL is as stable as BW over the long term, but there is no proof of the contrary.
SC2 has not had one player be dominant for any long period of time, with only Nestea ever winning back-to-back GSLs (and only then if you don't count the super tournament). People like to throw the B-word around because BW fans like to say SC2 is a no-skill game. Instead of a single Bonjwa, SC2 a somewhat consistent A-class. Late 2010 into fall 2011, for instance, was the Nestea/MVP era. GSL Open 2: Nestea wins against MarineKing in the finals GSL January 2011: MVP wins against MarineKing in the finals GSL World Championship MVP wins against MarineKing in the finals GSL May 2011: Nestea wins against Inca in the most one-sided finals in GSL history. GSL July 2011: Nestea wins against Losira, winning the GSL without losing a single set (albeit thanks to an easy bracket) MLG Anaheim: MVP wins against MMA GSL August 2011: MVP wins against Top in the finals Blizzcon: MVP wins against Nestea GSL October 2011: MMA defeats MMA, era of IM dominance ends. It's a pretty decent run split among two players. Yes, it's not a Bonjwa, but it's a pretty clear A-class, that has since been surpassed. Still, HotS as announced has increased the mechanical skill cap, which is nice. But SC2 is still a long way from BW 
On March 24 2012 09:02 rebdomine wrote:
Ugh. I would've preferred if they just ran a separate SC2 league to run alongside the usual BW Proleague.
I think this is what everyone wants. I imagine most BW fans would be happy to see SC2 do well if it didn't hurt BW at all.
really? did dustin say that they are going to increase the mechanical skill of hots?
There's a custom map that includes all the HotS units that are announced matching the stats from the Blizzcon reveal. It's considered to be mechanically harder than WoL, according to the ICCUP mapmaking team, at least (they talked about it during the "Mappers" show). Not because they got rid of MBS etc, but because the new units are more interesting and give you more to spend your APM on.
It's not like BW hard, at all, just notably harder than WoL.
In terms of actually increasingly skill cap on purpose, David Kim has said they're thinking of making Hellions default as "Battle Hellion" mode, which is more useful at low levels, instead of the fast harassment more useful at high levels, to address the problem of Terran being weak at the Platinum level. He noted this slightly increased the APM needed to play Terran at the top levels, and Blizzard considers that win-win. So, there's at least some openness to making the game harder, now that most of the casuals have left.
Edit: Also, both Blizz and SC2 community agree that most of SC2's problems come from the big 200/200 deathballs being such a big part of the game. Blizz's answer is to make units like the Oracle (BRILLIANT UNIT) and the Shredder (STUPID unit) that are good but not good in a fight (meaning less food for your main army), while the community is starting to experiment with less resources per base (meaning less food, period). Five BW marines aren't any more interesting that 5 SC2 marines, but 50 BW marines are way more interesting than 50 SC2 marines. Last edit: 2012-03-24 10:22:47 |
| | If you see a troll post, report and ignore. |  |
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Kennigit  Canada. March 24 2012 10:11. Posts 19179 | Profile Blog # |
| kespa really has gone full retard |
| | Please don't PM me if i closed your thread. | |
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| ShadeR Australia. March 24 2012 10:14. Posts 6625 | Profile Blog # |
| Perhaps it's hubris but i think this is really will really show off our superiority =P |
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| TheToast United States. March 24 2012 10:14. Posts 4804 | Profile Blog # |
On March 24 2012 06:43 StarStruck wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:37 TheToast wrote:
On March 24 2012 06:19 StarStruck wrote:
On March 24 2012 05:51 TheToast wrote:
On March 24 2012 05:40 StarStruck wrote:
I think it's more or less what media and society as a whole tells us. Better, more realistic graphics --> omfg we're in Heaven!
For me it's always been about the gameplay first.
1080p+ SC2 is nice to watch, but without the unit bars and shit, I couldn't for the life of me tell you how many zerglings are running in on that unprotected expo.
For me it doesn't matter what year it is. If the gameplay is incredible I have a hard time believing people cannot get into it.
I would avoid generalizations. I don't believe it's as significant as you believe it is. One of the reasons BW was so successful was the fact that anyone could play it. You should have seen the PC I started playing SC on. It was the biggest piece of shit and it could run the game smoothly. Likewise, that's how the Korean market felt too. B.Net was free, the game could run on any machine and the gameplay was fun as fuck.
In general, people want to watch professional matches of a game that they not only play, but that they can play reasonably competitively. I'm convinced that BW's high skill cap discourages a lot of people from playing the game, and thus watching professional matches. (at least for foriegners) Sure anyone can play it, but it takes a significant investment of time and effort to be able to play it well.
That is simply untrue and what did I just say about refraining from generalizations? There are many people who don't play and watch BW. When PCBangs first emerged. It was all about BW regardless of skill. BW is built for spectating.
I'm well aware there are people who watch BW but don't play it, I'm one of them. I haven't touched the game in years. And sure, BW's insanely high skill cap makes it great fun to watch. But here's the deal: BW fans seem to unanimously agree that SC2 has a lower skill cap and is an inferior game. But then how do we explain the explosive growth of SC2 as an esport in the foriegn scene and BW's still relative obscurity? You can say it's all based on graphics, but that's obsurd. Guitar hero has a decent pro scene for goodness sake; clearly graphics aren't all important. So if BW is the superior game, SC2 has 1000x the audience in the foreign scene and at dozens more tournaments (some of them as large as SPL), clearly graphics don't mean everything--and if my explanation is incorrect then please give us your reasoning as to what it is about SC2 that has made it so successful outside of Korea where BW is not.
ffs man haven't I been down this road with you or someone else over a dozen times? I really don't want to keep repeating myself. There are many and I mean many other factors as to why SC2 is doing so well including shelf-life, more money in the system, etc. No where did I say it's all about graphics lmao.
First of all BW as a game has about the greatest "shelf life" of any game ever. The SC battlechest could still be found in most stores in the US just until a few years ago.
But you other point, still doesn't answer as to why. Why is there more money in the system? Why did professional SC2 catch on in the foreigner community while games like BW and WC3 did not? You tell me my reasoning is completely wrong, but you can't seem to come up with a good reason yourself.
I'm glad we agree on the issue of graphics, but if that's not it then what is it about SC2 that caused it to catch on the way it has? What does it have in common with LoL, which has also caught on in a big way? Both are lower skill cap games where anyone can play competitively. Clear and simple IMO. The things that made BW so great of a game design-wise in many ways limited it's success as an esport outside of Korea. |
| | I like the way the walls go out. Gives you an open feeling. Firefly's a good design. People don't appreciate the substance of things. Objects in space. People miss out on what's solid. |  |
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| emc United States. March 24 2012 10:16. Posts 2909 | Profile # |
| they should just play the bw mod on sc2 as their new game instead |
| | take what i say with a grain of salt, make your own decisions and form your own opinions |  |
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| Kiett United States. March 24 2012 10:21. Posts 3622 | Profile Blog # |
LOL what
I didn't know this existed before |
| | 택뱅 ♥ | When you play the game of thrones, you either win... or you don't win. ☆彡| SKT SUPREMACY | ㅇㅅㅌㅅ |  |
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| Abort Retry Fail March 24 2012 10:21. Posts 2627 | Profile # |
How I read this choices are there:
a) SC2 + BW Proleague,or
b) SC2 Proleague only
I think the first one is meant to accommodate BW in its dying days. Damn this is sad. |
| | BSOD |  |
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 Arceus Vietnam. March 24 2012 10:24. Posts 4718 | Profile Blog # |
| the good thing about this is ACE might be playing sc2 as well =) |
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| RageCommodore Germany. March 24 2012 10:27. Posts 823 | Profile # |
So why not just host 2 separate leagues? Doesn't seem to make any sense to me, unless BW in Korea is at a worse state than everybody thinks. All in all a very strange idea.
btw, does anybody know how valid this talk is (I mean has anybody said something like that before)?Last edit: 2012-03-24 10:27:16 |
| | BW: sGs.sTaRfaLL SC2: NN_Commodore | fan of: Darkforce, DBS, KrasS, Delphi, Last, BoguS | Mass BC/ Ghost ftw! | song of the week: Imagine Dragons - Radioactive |  |
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| greenDron March 24 2012 10:27. Posts 66 | Profile # |
| nooooooooooooooooooooooooo! this sounds really weird with the ace match switchoff otherwise it might been ok... they should keep em more seperate! |
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| StarStruck March 24 2012 10:27. Posts 18393 | Profile # |
On March 24 2012 10:14 TheToast wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 06:43 StarStruck wrote:
On March 24 2012 06:37 TheToast wrote:
On March 24 2012 06:19 StarStruck wrote:
On March 24 2012 05:51 TheToast wrote:
On March 24 2012 05:40 StarStruck wrote:
I think it's more or less what media and society as a whole tells us. Better, more realistic graphics --> omfg we're in Heaven!
For me it's always been about the gameplay first.
1080p+ SC2 is nice to watch, but without the unit bars and shit, I couldn't for the life of me tell you how many zerglings are running in on that unprotected expo.
For me it doesn't matter what year it is. If the gameplay is incredible I have a hard time believing people cannot get into it.
I would avoid generalizations. I don't believe it's as significant as you believe it is. One of the reasons BW was so successful was the fact that anyone could play it. You should have seen the PC I started playing SC on. It was the biggest piece of shit and it could run the game smoothly. Likewise, that's how the Korean market felt too. B.Net was free, the game could run on any machine and the gameplay was fun as fuck.
In general, people want to watch professional matches of a game that they not only play, but that they can play reasonably competitively. I'm convinced that BW's high skill cap discourages a lot of people from playing the game, and thus watching professional matches. (at least for foriegners) Sure anyone can play it, but it takes a significant investment of time and effort to be able to play it well.
That is simply untrue and what did I just say about refraining from generalizations? There are many people who don't play and watch BW. When PCBangs first emerged. It was all about BW regardless of skill. BW is built for spectating.
I'm well aware there are people who watch BW but don't play it, I'm one of them. I haven't touched the game in years. And sure, BW's insanely high skill cap makes it great fun to watch. But here's the deal: BW fans seem to unanimously agree that SC2 has a lower skill cap and is an inferior game. But then how do we explain the explosive growth of SC2 as an esport in the foriegn scene and BW's still relative obscurity? You can say it's all based on graphics, but that's obsurd. Guitar hero has a decent pro scene for goodness sake; clearly graphics aren't all important. So if BW is the superior game, SC2 has 1000x the audience in the foreign scene and at dozens more tournaments (some of them as large as SPL), clearly graphics don't mean everything--and if my explanation is incorrect then please give us your reasoning as to what it is about SC2 that has made it so successful outside of Korea where BW is not.
ffs man haven't I been down this road with you or someone else over a dozen times? I really don't want to keep repeating myself. There are many and I mean many other factors as to why SC2 is doing so well including shelf-life, more money in the system, etc. No where did I say it's all about graphics lmao.
First of all BW as a game has about the greatest "shelf life" of any game ever. The SC battlechest could still be found in most stores in the US just until a few years ago. But you other point, still doesn't answer as to why. Why is there more money in the system? Why did professional SC2 catch on in the foreigner community while games like BW and WC3 did not? You tell me my reasoning is completely wrong, but you can't seem to come up with a good reason yourself. I'm glad we agree on the issue of graphics, but if that's not it then what is it about SC2 that caused it to catch on the way it has? What does it have in common with LoL, which has also caught on in a big way? Both are lower skill cap games where anyone can play competitively. Clear and simple IMO. The things that made BW so great of a game design-wise in many ways limited it's success as an esport outside of Korea.
If you read the last few pages there is a guy who eloquently posted a link to the blog I was talking about where I went on one of my rants. I'll give another hint. It's on page 14 of the blog.
That's all I'm going to say. Don't want to waste any more time on this.
On March 24 2012 10:27 RageCommodore wrote:
So why not just host 2 separate leagues? Doesn't seem to make any sense to me, unless BW in Korea is at a worse state than everybody thinks. All in all a very strange idea.
btw, does anybody know how valid this talk is (I mean has anybody said something like that before)?
I think it has to do with scheduling constraints and they want to get it going. :/ I mean right now we're looking at regular bo5 sets for PL. I don't see why they cannot do the same for a SC2 PL.
Last edit: 2012-03-24 10:29:34 |
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| Hesmyrr Canada. March 24 2012 10:29. Posts 4181 | Profile # |
On March 24 2012 10:24 Arceus wrote:
the good thing about this is ACE might be playing sc2 as well =)
Or
On March 24 2012 04:02 N.geNuity wrote:
The worst thing about this is that it would effectively immediately kill air force ace, since I don't think they would really be able to just start up a sc2 division. Earlier I said how kespa couldn't implement this, but maybe if they magicially got all the sc1 teams to agree to "partner up" with 1 distinct sc2 team they could field sc1/sc2 lineups (or force sc1 teams to practice sc2). It kind of defeats the point to make it a mix if you're going to make people switch over--Kespa I assume hopes to simply absorb current sc2 teams. ACE can't simply just absorb the sc2 teams; ace would die out.
I can't imagine what killing ACE would do to the mentality of some bw progamers. Probably at least like half of the more top tier sc1 players plan their career to be "play until I get too old/don't have good results, then hopefully enter ACE (otherwise to the military)".
I know the commentators in the Mr. Ma scandal said they felt so proud when air force ace got created because it finally felt that ESPORTS could become mainstream in korea and mr. ma ruined the credibility and pureness of esports.
This entire moves seems to retreat esports in korea to try to be the current fanbase of a couple games rather than make it more mainstream, which always seemed to be Kespa's (a division of the government) goal.
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| | "If watching the MSL finals makes you a progamer, then anyone in Korea can do it." - Ha Tae Ki |  |
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| Eee Sweden. March 24 2012 10:32. Posts 2709 | Profile # | |
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| Drowsy United States. March 24 2012 10:40. Posts 4826 | Profile Blog # |
| Honestly I think this would be really cool as a spectator, but there's like no way this would work for players. Last edit: 2012-03-24 10:49:04 |
| | Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us. |  |
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| Rococo United States. March 24 2012 10:41. Posts 294 | Profile # |
Obviously this rumor is baffling, but if SC2 and BW were to be linked in a subtler way, even something as small as one game coming on right after the other on OGN, I would have to agree with the people saying that it would be better for BW than SC2. I say this as someone who didn't watch a professional BW game until after playing SC2's beta.
About graphics as a barrier to entry, something I've noticed is that the opinion many non-BW fans have of BW's graphics comes from low resolution, low FPS restreams and Youtube videos. People often think the game looks much worse than it does. (Multiple times I've linked a higher resolution restream than Nanashin's to people and they've remarked that they didn't realize BW was so nice to look at.) Also keep in mind that many SC2 players prefer to play it with graphics set to low. The SC2 community is already predisposed to value clarity over flashiness. |
| | Clausewitz, Hayek, Vilppu | ♥ 後藤郁 ♥ | |
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| StarStruck March 24 2012 10:44. Posts 18393 | Profile # |
On March 24 2012 10:41 Rococo wrote:
Obviously this rumor is baffling, but if SC2 and BW were to be linked in a subtler way, even something as small as one game coming on right after the other on OGN, I would have to agree with the people saying that it would be better for BW than SC2. I say this as someone who didn't watch a professional BW game until after playing SC2's beta.
About graphics as a barrier to entry, something I've noticed is that the opinion many non-BW fans have of BW's graphics comes from low resolution, low FPS restreams and Youtube videos. People often think the game looks much worse than it does. (Multiple times I've linked a higher resolution restream than Nanashin's to people and they've remarked that they didn't realize BW was so nice to look at.) Also keep in mind that many SC2 players prefer to play it with graphics set to low. The SC2 community is already predisposed to value clarity over flashiness.
Yup, there are many things that can mislead them into thinking the graphics are grainy when they aren't really at all. Especially if you watch crappy restreams or WCG lmao. |
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