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| Firebolt145 United Kingdom. March 27 2012 18:34. Posts 12312 | Profile # |
| Wow, I don't think I've seen a poll like this since that ?Flash/Jaedong poll long ago. |
| | @Firebolt145 | Dota 2 stream yayayay www.twitch.tv/firebolt145 | |
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| Unleashing Denmark. March 27 2012 18:39. Posts 2391 | Profile # |
On March 27 2012 18:28 mr_tolkien wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 17:38 Unleashing wrote:
On March 27 2012 17:35 Niton wrote:
On March 27 2012 17:22 Unleashing wrote:
On March 27 2012 17:13 cilinder007 wrote:
If you leave you dont get a loss, you get an abandon and you are in low priority que making searching games take like 30 minutes
If 5 people disconnect from a game the game will end and result in a loss to said 5 people without giving them an abandon.
Practically speaking, how is this any different from a traditional surrender, aside from the ability for 1 player to grief the other 4 by saying okay and then not leaving? 4-1 is definitely a better margin for surrender for 5-0, because if my experience with this genre has taught me anything, it's that some people deeply enjoy being That One Asshole. I understand your concern, but the argument that you (and others) are presenting seems to boil down to "Having fun is less important than making sure you maximize your winning percentage", and that's not really something that flies with me. Forcing people to play out low%-odds scenarios just so you can tell them "I told you so" one out of every (10/20/50/100) times isn't a recipe for reasonable growth, because very few people actually find that fun.
Win percentage? I do not quite believe you have yet to read what me and others have been arguing, we don't play games where we are behind only for winning, but for the extremely amazing feeling it is to play a great game of DotA. I only play to have fun, not to win.
Well, if you have fun in 50% of your play time being brainless roflstomping from either side, fine with you, go on. Just don't try to press your views on normal human beings who have fun playing the game to improve as fast as possible :/
What are you talking about? I have fun in 99% of my DotA games.
And why 50% of my play-time? I don't get where you get that number from.
And "Normal human beings who have fun playing the game to improve as fast as possible" ???
Are you somehow, implying that playing from behind doesn't let you improve as a player? Excuse me but, you learn a lot more from a defeat than a victory in general. And even then, a normal person enjoys a game because of what game it is, not because of them either stomping or losing, i know there are people that only have fun when stomping and are bored when losing/not ahead, but those people are often not very good and also are victims to the Dunning–Kruger effect.
And very few of my games are stomps, they happen, but most of the time the games i play are fairly even and fun drawn out games. Last edit: 2012-03-27 18:39:32 |
| | "Back then teams that won were credited, now it's called throw. I think it's sad." - KuroKy | |
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| Niton United States. March 27 2012 18:54. Posts 1497 | Profile Blog # |
On March 27 2012 18:39 Unleashing wrote:
And very few of my games are stomps, they happen, but most of the time the games i play are fairly even and fun drawn out games.
And the ones that aren't? For you, a seasoned veteran, they're probably not that big a deal, but for a new player, having a bad experience without a reasonable out is a very good reason to stop playing your game. Even if you decide to not respond to anything else I posted earlier (which would be a shame, because I'm interested in your opinion), I'd like to know how you feel about new players in general - do you think that the game should be designed to be accomodating to them in any respects? If not, why?
Last edit: 2012-03-27 18:54:48 |
| | tree.hugger: Coming off of [(T)fantasy v. (T)Really] into [(T)Barracks v. (T)MVP] is like coming out of Manhattan into New Jersey. You just have to speed up and ignore it. |
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| Unleashing Denmark. March 27 2012 19:24. Posts 2391 | Profile # |
On March 27 2012 18:54 Niton wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 18:39 Unleashing wrote:
And very few of my games are stomps, they happen, but most of the time the games i play are fairly even and fun drawn out games.
And the ones that aren't? For you, a seasoned veteran, they're probably not that big a deal, but for a new player, having a bad experience without a reasonable out is a very good reason to stop playing your game. Even if you decide to not respond to anything else I posted earlier (which would be a shame, because I'm interested in your opinion), I'd like to know how you feel about new players in general - do you think that the game should be designed to be accomodating to them in any respects? If not, why?
If i am stomping, then i can learn something from what the enemy did wrong.
If i am getting stomped, i can learn what I did wrong.
A game starts out before the picking phase at a 50/50% win chance for both team, every pick, every action is contributing factors towards a win or loss.
I know i am not the average DotA player, but i started out worse than your average pub player, everybody has to start somewhere, and i feel being forced to play games that you are losing will teach you a lot.
And i know some people might not find it fun to be completely and utterly stomped, but it happens. Even to pro players, and not being able to out it obviously sucks, and i personally feel it'd be neat to have the option to surrender.
But my problem is, that i also played HoN, and it really changed the match-making to a hell for me, 5 minutes into the game someone would go "OK GG AFK CC 15" and it bothered me so so much.
It wont affect ME much if a concede was implemented seeing that i play with a team 50% of the time, but that last 50% where i'm solo queuing i don't want to experience what i experienced in HoN, the defeatist mind-set is there and it really sucks and having the option to surrender DOES flip a switch for some people, giving them a way out of the game without being punished.
And what parts of your pervious posts would you like me to respond to? I will gladly do so, if you mind pointing out what parts you'd like me to respond to.
I feel that, a surrender is a great idea in general to be quite frank.
I feel that DotA should do what SC2 does, a good 50 games where you are put against other people of lower level, and slowly putting you against gradually weaker or stronger opponents, and letting you have a surrender in these games since most likely people wont know what to do or when a game is lost or won. But i feel, it'll also let some people never experience the possibility of a comeback, comebacks aren't rare in DotA, and people that say so should start picking smarter, because as i said before, unless you for example pick 5 solo laners/hard carries or something along those lines, you should have a standing chance.
I really feel that DotA needs to have a good tutorial and so on, and i feel the coaching system in DotA will be a great success!
Guessing that DotA is F2P and has an ingame shop or something, i think a good way for the coach system to work would be a coach and a 'student' playing in match-making with the coach being in a voice-chat with the 'student' and then after the 'coach' guiding the 'student' trough, let's say 10-20 games, the 'student' could grade the amount they learned and how helpful it was, and then reward the coach accordingly 
There are, despite the bad reputation of the DotA community, a lot of people who are willing to teach others what they know.
Edit: PM me though, my thoughts about this aren't so much related to the surrender, but other ways to solve it, if you want to hear my thoughts, that is.Last edit: 2012-03-27 19:34:22 |
| | "Back then teams that won were credited, now it's called throw. I think it's sad." - KuroKy | |
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| jfourz Ireland. March 27 2012 19:49. Posts 351 | Profile # |
never give up
never surrender |
| | it is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. that is true, it's called life. | |
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 Tryhat March 27 2012 19:59. Posts 92 | Profile # |
On March 27 2012 19:24 Unleashing wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 18:54 Niton wrote:
On March 27 2012 18:39 Unleashing wrote:
And very few of my games are stomps, they happen, but most of the time the games i play are fairly even and fun drawn out games.
And the ones that aren't? For you, a seasoned veteran, they're probably not that big a deal, but for a new player, having a bad experience without a reasonable out is a very good reason to stop playing your game. Even if you decide to not respond to anything else I posted earlier (which would be a shame, because I'm interested in your opinion), I'd like to know how you feel about new players in general - do you think that the game should be designed to be accomodating to them in any respects? If not, why?
But my problem is, that i also played HoN, and it really changed the match-making to a hell for me, 5 minutes into the game someone would go "OK GG AFK CC 15" and it bothered me so so much.
I agree. There should be no time restrictions on the concede vote. |
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| Velr Switzerland. March 27 2012 21:35. Posts 5092 | Profile Blog # |
I want to be able concede..
Why?
Example from yesterday:
I lane bottom with Slardar (me) and Enigma (because some moron picked Chen after we allready had Enigma and went to forest --> "welcome to allpick", we joke around, everything is still fun;)).
In general we got outpicked (Enigma was a really stupid pick against mass stunners and with Chen "stealing" the jungle  ) , so we were in for a hard time anyway....
We do good at bottom, I get Firstblood and iirc a doublekill.
So I get my Vanguard/Treads really early.
Sadly my team is allready like 2-9 because top lane consists of two total fucking retards.. Chen + Storm spirit manage to F E E D against Sand King and Eearthshaker... I don't know how this is even fucking possible but they did. They also couldn't pull, lasthit, denie or anything at all.
Game was over right there but we had to endure it until minute 4X when the enemy team finally decided to finnish (with three of us just waiting at fountain or hiding in trees somewhere on the map) that bullshit which was over since like minute 20...
If you soloqueue, be prepared for truly horrible things. Seriously, my MM normally does not match me up with guys like this that have NO, NOOOO fuckign clue of what their doing but this was plain horrible...
The next few games were fun/decent but sometimes... SOMETIMES I really want to be able to just forfeit and be done with it instead of being locked into some stupid game for 45 mins++.
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| epoc Finland. March 27 2012 21:39. Posts 841 | Profile # |
| You ignore one fact in hon conceding. Hon has far worse hard carries and better gankers. You can comeback much easier in dota2 because of better carries but that is harder in hon |
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| Clow Brazil. March 27 2012 22:53. Posts 870 | Profile Blog # |
I hate it when I'm playing with 4 of my friends, we get stomped and all agree the game is over but just can't concede and move on to a new game.
I'd rather have whinny players asking for a concede at the 30 minutes mark than having to deal with them screwing around on purpose/complaining for 60+ minutes. |
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| dtz March 27 2012 23:03. Posts 3903 | Profile # |
Team Game/Ranked 5-s/Team Queue/whatever you want to call it - Sure have a concede button
Solo - No concede. But why stay in a game if you dont enjoy it you say? Because there are 5 people. I had this solo mid yesterday who was oblivious to ganks even when both sides of rivers were warded. Went 0-2 in 5 mins due to ganks. Said GG WP and switched off for the rest of the game while the rest of the team are still fighting for the game.
Did that guy have fun? NO!
Was he allowed to leave without consequences, after all what is a video game if you can't have fun?? Heck NO.
Concede will just allow this guy to push for concede since the 5th minute instead of fighting to claw back. He will hold the team hostage. Eventually the team will have to give up because this person already gave up and is game ruining.
Allowing concede will just make this kind of attitude more prevalent. Unless you can come up with a rule that can very clearly define what is " Unwinnable games" and " Players not having fun anymore" then concede shouldn't be in the game.
What should be done is to discourage game prolonging/ encourage ending games early as well as to punish afk-ers/intentional feeders.
I feel this is the least of two evils
Last edit: 2012-03-27 23:11:57 |
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| MrTortoise March 27 2012 23:08. Posts 965 | Profile # |
I like the way a lot of people who want to concede play with 'dicks' 'morons' and 'feeders'
Its amazing what a change in perspective can do for you.
BTW in most serious games it is considered rude to continue once you have got to the point where you cannot win
Continuing shows 2 things
1) you have no idea that you have lost and so a lack of awareness of current gamestate and its possible trees
2) You have no respect for your opponents time.
However i think 75% of dota players seem to be the kind of people who like to QQ so concede will kill the game.
75% is unfair but 75% of games having one is is easily true.
I always think that its a team game. If 3/5 want to quit you shuold be prepared to quit. The opposite is also true.
One of the problems in hon is when 4 want to concede and te other refuses to.Last edit: 2012-03-27 23:30:06 |
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| strongandbig United States. March 27 2012 23:13. Posts 3185 | Profile Blog # |
So I think there should definitely be a concede as long as the matchmaking system is in beta, as well as during placement matches.
I agree with people who say that comebacks are much more common in Dota than in hon. However, that's not because of the existence of the concede option; it's because of the game's mechanics. Hero kills in Hon are more common and more valuable, so advantages snowball much more in hon. Also hon is full of ridiculous s2 carry gank combo heroes who snowball really fast.
The thing is, even though comebacks are more common in Dota, they're still only possible up to a point, both in terms of the skill difference between the teams and in terms of the advantage one team has.
Basically, auto matchmaking for people in a solo queue can never match teams nearly as well as a 1v1 game like sc2 for example, since it's got to make teams of individuals but only has data about how they have done with other teams.
What I think should happen is that there should be a system where you can concede either after 30 or 40 minutes if the other team is drawing out the game, or when the discrepancy between teams is too big - maybe if there's a 15 kill difference, or if one team has a combined level 15 higher than the other. |
| | [QUOTE][B]On March 20 2013 14:51 WaveofShadow wrote:[/B] I don't know much about Coag, but he doesn't seem like the type of guy who goes against the grain just for kicks. [/QUOTE] |
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| noD March 27 2012 23:23. Posts 2120 | Profile Blog # |
| When u play against that broodmother that have bkb and a reaver before any of your team have even a threads it's time to concede. .. |
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| Unleashing Denmark. March 27 2012 23:38. Posts 2391 | Profile # |
On March 27 2012 23:08 MrTortoise wrote:
I like the way a lot of people who want to concede play with 'dicks' 'morons' and 'feeders'
Its amazing what a change in perspective can do for you.
Welcome to the Dunning-kruger effect.
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| | "Back then teams that won were credited, now it's called throw. I think it's sad." - KuroKy | |
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| debeuker Netherlands. March 28 2012 00:25. Posts 28 | Profile # |
On March 27 2012 23:08 MrTortoise wrote:
BTW in most serious games it is considered rude to continue once you have got to the point where you cannot win
Continuing shows 2 things
1) you have no idea that you have lost and so a lack of awareness of current gamestate and its possible trees
2) You have no respect for your opponents time.
Is it? I played quite a few FPS cups (5v5 ctf) and leaving before the end was considered a fucking disgrace for you and your team. Even if the scores where like 20-0 after 10 mins, you'd play it out to the end. (yes these matches had fixed times, so comparison to dota might be a bit off, but point of leaving stands)
I'd even go as far as saying conceding is even more rude then playing it out. Since you're taking away the fun of the enemy. Why do you think games get dragged out even if it's been decided after 20 mins? Because the enemy wants to have some fun getting rampages! With a concede option this is no longer possible. So play to the end and expect the same from the enemy, then you can go and test your double rapier build.
Also, 1/100 comebacks is successfull keep getting mentioned. I'd say that these dragged out rape games happen about 1/25 games, so it's not like ppl are spending hours at the fountain every evening.
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| MrTortoise March 28 2012 00:31. Posts 965 | Profile # |
On March 27 2012 23:13 strongandbig wrote:
Also hon is full of ridiculous s2 carry gank combo heroes who snowball really fast.
I just played with lycan and was like WTF? I need to buy a bkb now because his ult doesnt give me magic immunity.
I also like how they buffed huskar massively and called him predator
Even 'supports' like leshrac are stronger in hon.
I think the hon version of puck is a lot stronger also ... cant remember its name ... turtley thing
That doesn't even get onto the s2 unique heroes which are all broken or were horribly broken at various points.
Winning at hon basically means first pick the new hero ...
On March 28 2012 00:25 debeuker wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 23:08 MrTortoise wrote:
BTW in most serious games it is considered rude to continue once you have got to the point where you cannot win
Continuing shows 2 things
1) you have no idea that you have lost and so a lack of awareness of current gamestate and its possible trees
2) You have no respect for your opponents time.
Is it? I played quite a few FPS cups (5v5 ctf) and leaving before the end was considered a fucking disgrace for you and your team. Even if the scores where like 20-0 after 10 mins, you'd play it out to the end. (yes these matches had fixed times, so comparison to dota might be a bit off, but point of leaving stands) I'd even go as far as saying conceding is even more rude then playing it out. Since you're taking away the fun of the enemy. Why do you think games get dragged out even if it's been decided after 20 mins? Because the enemy wants to have some fun getting rampages! With a concede option this is no longer possible. So play to the end and expect the same from the enemy, then you can go and test your double rapier build. Also, 1/100 comebacks is successfull keep getting mentioned. I'd say that these dragged out rape games happen about 1/25 games, so it's not like ppl are spending hours at the fountain every evening.
You just strawmanned me ... CTF is played with a time limit thats why you play to the end. So no the point doesn't stand its a different kind of game. You can always come back a *lot* of points in 10 mins in a game of ctf if the other team collapses (but yeah 20-0 is lost) .... but the game is played on a clock and is usually in a league (so the points can matter later on) ... all these things change the situation. For the record i have had huge arguments with people in clans i have been in when they left a game early. Its just not on in that environment.
The games i was alluding to are mainly board games btw.
Compare CSS where when you get raped 15:0 at T you then switch lose 1 round and the game is over ....
It slike getting in a fight with someone and the stupid guy keeps getting back up. When your a kid you may think 'hell yeah the guy has heart' but really hes an idiot who shoudl just stay down before he gets himself hurt.
Moreover in a game that is lost all you are learning is to run away fronm a fight because they are so overpowerd. IE the patterns you need to employ after you have lost are not the same as when its close or even winnable. If players play like that all the time then they WILL lose as they are playing scared.
Thats why noobs dont initiate imo ... because they know they could die and their crap teammates never back them up. So you learn not to do it. I would prefer to spend my time practising *NOT* getting into that position
A great proverb is dont throw good money after bad
dotn throw good stones after bad
Lots of proverbs that tell you once you have fucked up, drop it and start again otherwise you are only wasting everyone's time.Last edit: 2012-03-28 00:48:09 |
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| Unleashing Denmark. March 28 2012 00:38. Posts 2391 | Profile # |
On March 28 2012 00:31 MrTortoise wrote:
I just played with lycan and was like WTF? I need to buy a bkb now because his ult doesnt give me magic immunity.
I also like how they buffed huskar massively and called him predator
Even 'supports' like leshrac are stronger in hon.
I think the hon version of puck is a lot stronger also ... cant remember its name ... turtley thing
That doesn't even get onto the s2 unique heroes which are all broken or were horribly broken at various points.
Winning at hon basically means first pick the new hero ...
Leshrac is no support. And of course lycan ult doesn't give magic immunity and predator is a n'aix port, not huskar. He was ported into HoN before huskar got his gap-closing ult.
And bubbles is stronger because his 'orb' moves faster.
Also, it's not carries that make comebacks possible in DotA alone, it's teamfight controlling heroes, which there are a plethora of and no limit on how many buybacks you can do, unlike HoN and no smoke in HoN either. |
| | "Back then teams that won were credited, now it's called throw. I think it's sad." - KuroKy | |
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| epoc Finland. March 28 2012 00:39. Posts 841 | Profile # |
On March 28 2012 00:31 MrTortoise wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 23:13 strongandbig wrote:
Also hon is full of ridiculous s2 carry gank combo heroes who snowball really fast.
I just played with lycan and was like WTF? I need to buy a bkb now because his ult doesnt give me magic immunity. I also like how they buffed huskar massively and called him predator Even 'supports' like leshrac are stronger in hon. I think the hon version of puck is a lot stronger also ... cant remember its name ... turtley thing That doesn't even get onto the s2 unique heroes which are all broken or were horribly broken at various points. Winning at hon basically means first pick the new hero ...
Show nested quote +On March 28 2012 00:25 debeuker wrote:
On March 27 2012 23:08 MrTortoise wrote:
BTW in most serious games it is considered rude to continue once you have got to the point where you cannot win
Continuing shows 2 things
1) you have no idea that you have lost and so a lack of awareness of current gamestate and its possible trees
2) You have no respect for your opponents time.
Is it? I played quite a few FPS cups (5v5 ctf) and leaving before the end was considered a fucking disgrace for you and your team. Even if the scores where like 20-0 after 10 mins, you'd play it out to the end. (yes these matches had fixed times, so comparison to dota might be a bit off, but point of leaving stands) I'd even go as far as saying conceding is even more rude then playing it out. Since you're taking away the fun of the enemy. Why do you think games get dragged out even if it's been decided after 20 mins? Because the enemy wants to have some fun getting rampages! With a concede option this is no longer possible. So play to the end and expect the same from the enemy, then you can go and test your double rapier build. Also, 1/100 comebacks is successfull keep getting mentioned. I'd say that these dragged out rape games happen about 1/25 games, so it's not like ppl are spending hours at the fountain every evening.
You just strawmanned me ... CTF is played with a time limit thats why you play to the end. So no the point doesn't stand its a different kind of game. You can always come back a *lot* of points in 10 mins in a game of ctf if the other team collapses (but yeah 20-0 is lost) .... but the game is played on a clock and is usually in a league (so the points can matter later on) ... all these things change the situation. The games i was alluding to are mainly board games btw. Compare CSS where when you get raped 15:0 at T you then switch lose 1 round and the game is over .... It slike getting in a fight with someone and the stupid guy keeps getting back up. When your a kid you may think 'hell yeah the guy has heart' but really hes an idiot who shoudl just stay down before he gets himself hurt. Moreover in a game that is lost all you are learning is to run away fronm a fight because they are so overpowerd. IE the patterns you need to employ after you have lost are not the same as when its close or even winnable. If players play like that all the time then they WILL lose as they are playing scared. Thats why noobs dont initiate imo ... because they know they could die and their crap te4ammates never back them up. So you learn not to do it. I would prefer to spend my time practising *NOT* getting into that position A great proverb is dont throw good money after bad dotn throw good stones after bad Lots of proverbs that tell you once you have fucked up, drop it and start again otherwise you are only wasting everyone's time.
Lycans ult never gave magic immunity.. And leshrac isn't exactly a support |
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| MrTortoise March 28 2012 00:45. Posts 965 | Profile # |
On March 28 2012 00:38 Unleashing wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 28 2012 00:31 MrTortoise wrote:
I just played with lycan and was like WTF? I need to buy a bkb now because his ult doesnt give me magic immunity.
I also like how they buffed huskar massively and called him predator
Even 'supports' like leshrac are stronger in hon.
I think the hon version of puck is a lot stronger also ... cant remember its name ... turtley thing
That doesn't even get onto the s2 unique heroes which are all broken or were horribly broken at various points.
Winning at hon basically means first pick the new hero ...
Leshrac is no support. And of course lycan ult doesn't give magic immunity and predator is a n'aix port, not huskar. He was ported into HoN before huskar got his gap-closing ult. And bubbles is stronger because his 'orb' moves faster. Also, it's not carries that make comebacks possible in DotA alone, it's teamfight controlling heroes, which there are a plethora of and no limit on how many buybacks you can do, unlike HoN and no smoke in HoN either.
i did put support in quote - i dont know how you classify him. Hes not a carry or ganker ... hes a beast when fed?
lycan ult gives immunity in hon and pred may be a naix port but you gotta admit the ult screams huskar  But my point is that pred seems to have the best parts of naix and huskar imo
Yeah i wasnt trying to say it was just the carries, but i am continually amazed at how big a diff the small buffs to heroes make. Even pudge seems to snowball faster in hon ... all of it adds up to it being less forgiving imo.
Last edit: 2012-03-28 00:49:29 |
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| Unleashing Denmark. March 28 2012 00:59. Posts 2391 | Profile # |
On March 28 2012 00:45 MrTortoise wrote:i did put support in quote - i dont know how you classify him. Hes not a carry or ganker ... hes a beast when fed? lycan ult gives immunity in hon and pred may be a naix port but you gotta admit the ult screams huskar But my point is that pred seems to have the best parts of naix and huskar imo Yeah i wasnt trying to say it was just the carries, but i am continually amazed at how big a diff the small buffs to heroes make. Even pudge seems to snowball faster in hon ... all of it adds up to it being less forgiving imo.
But, that's exactly what leshrac is, he's a mid-game carry/semi-carry.
And no, warbeasts ult does not give magic immunity, it gives slow-immunity just like lycan's.
"Metamorphosis Effect(s)
Reduces base attack time from 1.7 seconds to 1.4 seconds.
Increases Movement Speed of self and all owned units to 522 and grants unitwalking."
And no, his ult does not scream huskar :
"The Predator roars, instilling Terror in nearby enemies, reducing their Armor. Allies who attack enemies affected by Terror will receive increased Attack Speed and Movement Speed." It works nothing like ANY ability huskar has, besides granting attack speed like his third, but even then they are too mechanically different in practice to be called similar.
The only thing he has from huskar is a gap-closing slow and damage dealing skill.
Edit: and he doesn't have the best from N'aix.
He lacks the massive slow that n'aix brings over a longer period of time and initially more powerful slow.
He also lacks the attackspeed buff rage brings, and he's also slower in regards to base move speed.
He also doesn't have infest which since it's buff is amazing.Last edit: 2012-03-28 01:17:37 |
| | "Back then teams that won were credited, now it's called throw. I think it's sad." - KuroKy | |
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