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| Hemogoblin Canada. April 15 2012 11:56. Posts 8 | Profile # |
| There should be a concede option if everyone on your team votes for it. If no-one wants to keep playing, why force them to stay in the game? |
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| Catch]22 Sweden. April 15 2012 12:04. Posts 2355 | Profile Blog # |
| Went back and played some HoN today, GOD do people give up easy in HoN. I blame the concede option. |
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| Names Canada. April 15 2012 12:40. Posts 140 | Profile # |
On April 15 2012 11:56 Hemogoblin wrote:
There should be a concede option if everyone on your team votes for it. If no-one wants to keep playing, why force them to stay in the game?
Because it's easy to give up when you have the option to. And to blame your team when they don't want to concede like you do.
I think dota2 is fine without concede because people don't give up so easily and epic comebacks aren't that rare.Last edit: 2012-04-15 12:41:20 |
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| dartoo India. April 15 2012 13:08. Posts 2252 | Profile # |
It's a double edged sword, we've had quite a few comebacks from near death situations, but also at the sametime a lot of games finish 15-20 minutes before the actual end but yet some players drag it on, and this causes a lot of wasted time, when you could've just moved on to the next game.
the problem is that comebacks happen when the game drags on and the team that was winning makes a critical mistake letting you back in, and having a concede option means no comebacks etc. So I'm really divided on this. |
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| mordk April 15 2012 13:20. Posts 7047 | Profile Blog # |
On April 12 2012 02:38 Flamingo777 wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 01:33 justinpal wrote:
If TLIH is any indication there should be no concede. LOL, those guys give up so quickly. At like 10 minutes saying a game is lost.
Sometimes the game is simply over though. I'm not saying that a comeback is impossible, I'd say comebacks are always possible. I believe that the amount of effort taken to salvage a win, and the fact that you have to rely upon your opponents messing up multiple times can/should be avoided if a team doesn't want to waste their time playing it out, just waiting for the enemy team to make a mistake to correct their past blunders.
In a game like Dota, mistakes don't just happen, mistakes are forced, creating a window for a comeback. It's really extremely common in Dota for this to happen, compared to other competitive games, like starcraft. Since it's so common for this to happen, a concede option is a waste. |
| | "I haven't prepared anything in particular. I'm naturally good at everything. I'm good at eating too, so that's why I can't lose weight. I'm thinking maybe I'll dance as a ceremony, a dance that's popular lately" MC - discussing GSL grand finals | |
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| Cel.erity United States. April 15 2012 14:35. Posts 3642 | Profile Blog # |
On April 13 2012 11:42 crydee wrote:
Come backs were more possible when you had a leaver and a sudden gold influx to your carry if he can sell everything was possible.
Sort of agree with this, too. The fact that leaves are counted actually makes comebacks harder, because in a traditional pub game, your feeders and people with bad attitudes would often leave early, enabling you to win 4v5 without the weight on your back. In DotA2, even if they do leave, you don't get any sort of advantage to outweigh the loss. You don't get bonus gold and you can't buy items for their hero. I've had games where the leaver ended up with ~4k gold which could have bought us a nice item to help win the game, but instead it just sits there uselessly. They really need to fix that. |
| | We found Dove in a soapless place. |
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| rabidch United States. April 15 2012 16:05. Posts 8307 | Profile # |
On April 15 2012 14:35 Cel.erity wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 11:42 crydee wrote:
Come backs were more possible when you had a leaver and a sudden gold influx to your carry if he can sell everything was possible.
Sort of agree with this, too. The fact that leaves are counted actually makes comebacks harder, because in a traditional pub game, your feeders and people with bad attitudes would often leave early, enabling you to win 4v5 without the weight on your back. In DotA2, even if they do leave, you don't get any sort of advantage to outweigh the loss. You don't get bonus gold and you can't buy items for their hero. I've had games where the leaver ended up with ~4k gold which could have bought us a nice item to help win the game, but instead it just sits there uselessly. They really need to fix that.
it's also really goddamn hard to micro them. half the hotkeys dont work for me.Last edit: 2012-04-15 16:05:17 |
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| Hemogoblin Canada. April 15 2012 23:34. Posts 8 | Profile # |
On April 15 2012 11:56 Hemogoblin wrote:
There should be a concede option if everyone on your team votes for it. If no-one wants to keep playing, why force them to stay in the game?
On April 15 2012 12:40 Names wrote:
Because it's easy to give up when you have the option to. And to blame your team when they don't want to concede like you do.
I think dota2 is fine without concede because people don't give up so easily and epic comebacks aren't that rare.
1. Good, I agree with your first sentence. I want to be able to give up easily when the whole team agrees.
2. I disagree with your second point; I believe people give up easily, and comebacks are rare. In any case, it's irrelevant how common come-backs are in the general case; if in one specific game everyone wants to give up, that means your team of 5 people has unanimously agreed that a comeback is impossible and don't want to keep playing. |
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| Hemogoblin Canada. April 16 2012 00:05. Posts 8 | Profile # |
On April 15 2012 13:20 mordk wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 02:38 Flamingo777 wrote:
On March 24 2012 01:33 justinpal wrote:
If TLIH is any indication there should be no concede. LOL, those guys give up so quickly. At like 10 minutes saying a game is lost.
Sometimes the game is simply over though. I'm not saying that a comeback is impossible, I'd say comebacks are always possible. I believe that the amount of effort taken to salvage a win, and the fact that you have to rely upon your opponents messing up multiple times can/should be avoided if a team doesn't want to waste their time playing it out, just waiting for the enemy team to make a mistake to correct their past blunders.
In a game like Dota, mistakes don't just happen, mistakes are forced, creating a window for a comeback. It's really extremely common in Dota for this to happen, compared to other competitive games, like starcraft. Since it's so common for this to happen, a concede option is a waste.
I think you need to need to provide some sort of justification for your statement that, paraphrased, "forcing errors is extremely common and causes comebacks".
I will provide contrary evidence. Note that I am talking about general mid/low-level pub games. High level games are irrelevant because concede would probably not be used, and competitive matches use non-ranked games so they can just disconnect.
My contrary evidence is
1. In a general-pub game the skill level is not high enough to "force" errors; unforced errors are much more common.
2. Both teams probably have approximately the same (low) skill level, so an unforced error from each team is just as likely. If you're losing badly and thinking about conceding, at that point it's just as likely to have your team screw up and make your situation worse, as it is for the other team to screw up and you get a comeback.
4. Even if your team has one skilled player who can force errors, it may not be possible for that person to carry through to a win depending on how far the game has progressed.
The last point is important:
5. Concede should require a unanimous vote; if your "super skilled carry" thinks that a situation can still be salvageable, then concede won't be used and the fact that it is available is irrelevant. Conversely, by my definition above, the "super skilled carry" is the only person on your team who can reliably change the game in your favor by forcing errors, and if they recognize that the situation is not salvageable, then probably everyone else does too, leading to a concede.
If everyone realizes the situation is hopeless, even and especially the high level player, it makes no sense to force them to sit in fountain to wait for the game to end. Give them the concede option. |
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| PopcornColonel United States. April 16 2012 00:08. Posts 655 | Profile # |
On April 15 2012 12:04 Catch]22 wrote:
Went back and played some HoN today, GOD do people give up easy in HoN. I blame the concede option.
Yeah, I played league of legends yesterday... we were down like 4-7 and had lost two t1 towers and our team instantly forfeited at 20:00 and everyone immediately hit yes...
This is definitely not the right mentality. I do agree with the idea that concede should be available after 2 raxes are down, however. I don't really see the harm in that. |
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| Niton United States. April 16 2012 00:25. Posts 1497 | Profile Blog # |
On April 16 2012 00:08 PopcornColonel wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 12:04 Catch]22 wrote:
Went back and played some HoN today, GOD do people give up easy in HoN. I blame the concede option.
Yeah, I played league of legends yesterday... we were down like 4-7 and had lost two t1 towers and our team instantly forfeited at 20:00 and everyone immediately hit yes... This is definitely not the right mentality. I do agree with the idea that concede should be available after 2 raxes are down, however. I don't really see the harm in that.
You're not painting the whole picture, and I can't tell if it's because you're hiding the rest of the relevant information (team levels, gold income) or you just weren't aware of it at the time. It's possible for even a 4-7 score game like that to be a waste of time to try and come back in in a pub game - if, for example, your mid+top were behind a combined 100 CS, OR you were also down 2 dragons, OR one of your lanes fed massively with another lane also losing, you're probably not going to win that game.
Surrender should come at the point where the team feels they're no longer going to reasonably win the game, not when their opponents want it. |
| | tree.hugger: Coming off of [(T)fantasy v. (T)Really] into [(T)Barracks v. (T)MVP] is like coming out of Manhattan into New Jersey. You just have to speed up and ignore it. |
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| FatCaT1337 April 16 2012 00:26. Posts 17 | Profile # |
no way,concede is lame.
there was no concede in dota and should not be in dota 2!
FIGHT UNTILL THE END!Last edit: 2012-04-16 00:27:15 |
| | oldschool TL'er (pre SC2 crap) lost my account :( |
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| archonOOid April 16 2012 00:46. Posts 1882 | Profile Blog # |
| A concede should be based off certain conditions like number of towers fallen and not time. If the radiant has 2 mega creep lanes and has only lost 1-2 tower it should be ok to ff. A very hard concede option is the only reasonable option in my mind. |
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| superstartran United States. April 16 2012 01:28. Posts 1354 | Profile # |
On April 15 2012 13:20 mordk wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 02:38 Flamingo777 wrote:
On March 24 2012 01:33 justinpal wrote:
If TLIH is any indication there should be no concede. LOL, those guys give up so quickly. At like 10 minutes saying a game is lost.
Sometimes the game is simply over though. I'm not saying that a comeback is impossible, I'd say comebacks are always possible. I believe that the amount of effort taken to salvage a win, and the fact that you have to rely upon your opponents messing up multiple times can/should be avoided if a team doesn't want to waste their time playing it out, just waiting for the enemy team to make a mistake to correct their past blunders.
In a game like Dota, mistakes don't just happen, mistakes are forced, creating a window for a comeback. It's really extremely common in Dota for this to happen, compared to other competitive games, like starcraft. Since it's so common for this to happen, a concede option is a waste.
In a game with stacking advantages mistakes must be made by the winning team for them to lose. It is impossible for it to happen otherwise.
DotA and Starcraft are both similar in that through good decisions, you can make your "stacking advantage" bigger and bigger to the point where the other player/player(s) usually quit after awhile because they know they have lost. Not having a concede option goes against everything semi-non idiotic DotA 1 players knew (since anyone that was decent played in a system that had a FF option).Last edit: 2012-04-16 01:29:34 |
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| Cel.erity United States. April 16 2012 02:34. Posts 3642 | Profile Blog # |
On April 16 2012 00:26 FatCaT1337 wrote:
no way,concede is lame.
there was no concede in dota and should not be in dota 2!
FIGHT UNTILL THE END!
Really? There was definitely a forfeit option in every DotA league that I know of, and in pubs, people leave early all the time. |
| | We found Dove in a soapless place. |
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| RTSDealer April 16 2012 18:09. Posts 104 | Profile # |
While it was a good option back in HoN, I wouldn't mind having no concede option in Dota 2.
I do see both sides of the picture and I'll be okay with any path Valve will take. |
| | rtsdealer.com - I love Dota 2 and Starcraft 2 |
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| BeMannerDuPenner Germany. April 16 2012 21:36. Posts 5171 | Profile Blog # |
im very hesitant to start dota2 nowadays and a big part is the lack of a concede/ff option.
i can accept the often terribad team i have. stupid picks,stupid lanes, stupid behavior and suicides. what i can not accept is beeing forced to waste 20++ minutes in games that are lost and boring as hell. when i play 3 matches , have badluck with the team and then basicly spend over an hour overall staring at the screen waiting for it to end something is wrong.
same other way round, had games where it was 15-2 for us at 20 min mark, pushed first rax at 24 minutes. still it took another 15 minutes till the game ended. wasted time,nothing else.
i dont want to play and always run the risk that half of my time is annoying boring crap that i cant end.
before all the game should stay fun. and when a game is over its over. esp in dota its really not hard to judge the outcome of a game.
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| Fruktsoda Sweden. April 16 2012 22:35. Posts 192 | Profile # |
| weren't they going to add a 5v5 team matchmaking? in that I really feel a concede button would work as intended but as for solo que it might be very demoralising |
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| greggy United Kingdom. April 17 2012 05:30. Posts 900 | Profile # |
Concede should be available when one set of raxes at least is down, but not before.
In CM, concede should be available at any time but may only be suggested by the captain. IMHO. |
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 Anacletus United States. April 17 2012 06:03. Posts 670 | Profile Blog # |
I agree that there should be a concede based on some late-game condition like raxes or tower or something. I feel like a lot of the noobier players who can fall behind fast in a game might have a lot more late-game carry potential and might surrender early if given the chance. It would certainly be a shame to lose a game and later realize you could have won it. As winning a game where you've been behind for a long time is definitely one of the best feelings in DotA  |
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