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| Roflhaxx Norway. March 26 2012 04:14. Posts 1011 | Profile # |
On March 25 2012 23:33 paralleluniverse wrote:
The problem with LoL is that an average game lasts 30 minutes, but the winner is already determined by the 15 minute mark.
Of course there should be a concede.
Fixed it for you.Last edit: 2012-03-26 04:15:07 |
| | A game where the first thing you do is scout with a “worker”. Does that make any sense? Who scouts with a “worker”? That’s like sending out the janitor to perform recon, what general would do that? Retarded game. |
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| Valashu Netherlands. March 26 2012 04:18. Posts 542 | Profile # |
There should be a concede button, why wait for 15 minutes for a game that is already over to finish.
If I lose I have to go over fountain diving (because people like padding their stats) and if I win I have to farm for a while so we can 100% steamroll their lineup and go for the ancient.
I do not care about combacks at all because comebacks only happen once every 100 losses, the other 99 will just be a waste of time because both teams could be playing a new game against different players. |
| | The superior pilot uses his superior judgement to avoid exercising his superior skill. |
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| nkulu United States. March 26 2012 04:41. Posts 222 | Profile # |
On March 26 2012 03:21 red_ wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 03:05 BeanerBurrito wrote:
The problem i have with concede doesn't have a ton to do with the function itself.
If you cannot win a game, I think it is ok to concede.
If you can win a game, I think it is NOT ok to concede.
The real problem is that i do not trust my teammates to correctly judge whether or not a game is lost.
If someone thinks they can't win and concede, but they actually can win, it just wasted a game.
As soon as a person decides to "vote" to forfeit, they have basically left the game, they have given up mentally and will not attempt to win the game because they think they have already lost.
I do not want to give myself and my teammates the ability to give up when they shouldn't, even if it means they can't give up when they should.
I don't have a problem with 5/5 people conceding and ending the game because they don't want to play, but i do have a problem with at least 1/5 people conceding because as soon as that happens you are now playing 4v5 and the game is lost.
If you vote to concede the game it is the same thing as clicking the leave game button because you are no longer actually trying to win, you have given up whether it was warranted or not.
A lot of the negative assumptions for conceding and people in favor of it hinge on this idea that if a person votes to concede, they instantly give up. I can't speak for everyone, but in LoL/HoN games where I vote to concede/ff, if the vote doesn't pass I still play the game as best I can because there's this thing called pride, and playing horribly(or at least, more horribly than you would be to find yourself in a situation you feel is forfeitable) isn't fun. I think people are far too worried about policing the emotions of others in a pub game. Could also be a good bit of projection going on in this thread.
Exactly. No one actually stops playing if their vote to forfeit failed unless they are immature and would dick around with or without a concede feature. |
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| rabidch United States. March 26 2012 04:59. Posts 8304 | Profile # |
On March 25 2012 14:43 Tryhat wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 16:33 rabidch wrote:
On March 24 2012 14:02 shostakovich wrote:
Knowing the 'proper' time to resign comes with experience in Dota. It might sound simple, but it's pretty hard to analyze some positions in Dota. From experience, I believe that the only position that results into a certain loss is losing all the barracks and being assaulted by mega creeps (I never saw any team coming back from this position, and I follow the scene and play this since the time FearDarkness was at coL)
Many higher level players might resign after losing massive fights or a set of barracks, because their reading of the situation leads them to believe they can't come back, and most of the times they're right. But if you're learning and playing casually, it's absolutely fine and expected to keep playing even if you're in a bad position. That's how you learn. Chances are your opponent is learning, too, and you might discover an amazing tactic (or an opponent's blunder!) that will even the game.
Concede makes sense if we're talking on Team vs Team, where we don't have five random guys joined together, but a TEAM. In this case, the captain can answer for all the players and they can give up or not. But in matchmaking terms, where the five doesn't make a team, the idea of concede is really bad (in my opinion). The point is not only about having fun, but also about learning how to play and experiment different positions.
http://gosugamers.net/dota/replays/49134http://gosugamers.net/dota/replays/29384and anyway, often because drafts, strategy, teamplay are not that serious at the high skill level (since nothing is on the line) mega creeps are not always a death sentence. i dont think i'm high skill level at all but i've had a few games where we came back from megas to win, and i'm sure there are plenty of other people on TL that can say the same thing, but you can see that even from high skill level and down coming back from megas is indeed possible  . people make mistakes (or throw) all the time which is why sometimes it is winnable. some people want to keep playing, some people dont, just the nature of team games. edit: as i said before, i'm sure valve if they wanted to can work out a smart concede system that takes into account a number of factors.
Mega creeps means you win. You don't come back from it.
apparently you didnt watch or read those replays. also my friend recently came back from getting mega'd, so it's definitely possible in dota2. unless your level of sarcasm is beyond mine, but i dont really find it funny. |
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| Schlendrian March 26 2012 05:20. Posts 42 | Profile # |
ehm...i just voted for "concede", but it added a point to "no concede"...did u mix something up poll guy, or am i crazy?
btw, very close vote. |
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| stink123 United States. March 26 2012 05:28. Posts 177 | Profile # |
Having no concede function basically allows the opposing team to grief you. This is why HoN, LoL, and pretty much every Dota league has a concede. Sure, once every 10 games there'll be a time when a team attempting to grief fails, but the rest of the nine times is just a miserable experience for the losing team.
And also, how hard is it to convince 1 other person on your team not to concede? Dota is a TEAM game, if your entire TEAM decides its time to give up, you should too. |
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| Maxtor United Kingdom. March 26 2012 05:32. Posts 243 | Profile Blog # |
I'm personally in favour of concede, I played a lot of games, but the ones you remember is the one that you cant FF where you know its completely lost and the enemy team just doesn't want to finish, its a slow inevitable end. I never stop trying to win regardless of my opinion of how the game is going, but some games are just lost, anyone with sufficient knowledge will tell you, for every dramatic come back you have 20-30 painfully long overdrawn games with your predicted result.
There is no stopping people from being dicks when they think its lost, this in my opinion is the best way to end those games without people going afk and wasting more time. I think the concede option makes this a better experience for the larger number of players, if no one on the team wants to continue, why force them? I'm sure the winning team will accept the win regardless of the time. |
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| Phyrful United States. March 26 2012 05:37. Posts 220 | Profile # |
After years of Dota and HoN, I think the concede option is viable. One's tenacity plays a big part in one's skill, and it's pretty much impossible to come back and win if you are mentally defeated enough to consider conceding. The concede button is optional; players skilled enough to make a comeback can simply not use it, otherwise it prevents alot of time / grief.
In addition, to those saying that having a concede button lets people give up too easily, there's already so many ways to concede without the button (fountain camp, sell items / buy tangoes / eat into trees, continuous feed) that those players who give up too early will still give up, but in a much uglier fashion. |
| | "It's a choose, not a perfumation"-Lina |
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| n0ise March 26 2012 05:37. Posts 2866 | Profile # |
no reason to not have a concede button tbh
especially considering those frustrating games in which the other team has better heroes + farm/xp on those heroes, yet you still kinda hold on and barely lose, and have to play through this barely but guaranteed loss for thirty more minutes.
ofc you can be down 9-10 kills and easily come back from the game (extremely common against retard teams that run all-5 around the map while you/your carry free farms somewhere safe), but if that's the case, you just don't concede lol
I guess there is a problem with overly bad people who can't tell a winnable situation from another, but that's why you need 5/5 for concede in the first place |
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| PH United States. March 26 2012 05:41. Posts 6097 | Profile Blog # |
| Dota games take long enough as it is. I'd LOVE a concede function. My main issue of moba games of all kinds is that they so often last so damn long. I'm pretty sure dota2 will eventually implement a concede function. It's not there yet because the game is still in beta, and games over in twenty minutes are bad for data collection. |
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| Cel.erity United States. March 26 2012 06:10. Posts 3642 | Profile Blog # |
On March 26 2012 05:41 PH wrote:
Dota games take long enough as it is. I'd LOVE a concede function. My main issue of moba games of all kinds is that they so often last so damn long. I'm pretty sure dota2 will eventually implement a concede function. It's not there yet because the game is still in beta, and games over in twenty minutes are bad for data collection.
Valve has stated they won't add such a feature, which makes threads arguing the topic all the more silly. But I do suspect they might change their mind, considering how many people have complained about it on the beta forums (over there, it's not nearly a 50/50 split in opinions.) |
| | We found Dove in a soapless place. |
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| Canola Canada. March 26 2012 06:18. Posts 147 | Profile Blog # |
| NO. Playing from a disadvantage is an important aspect of the game. Comebacks do happen. If you're really losing badly then the game should be close to over anyway. |
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| QuothTheRaven United States. March 26 2012 06:31. Posts 5512 | Profile # |
On March 24 2012 01:34 zz_ wrote:
No. After having played HoN for several years (quit DotA back when the HoN closed beta started) I really missed the concede function when I came back to dota2, but after having played ~150 games or so I've completely changed my mind.
Sure, there is that one game out of 50 where your entire team is afking in the fountain where you wish you could just get the fuck out asap, but these games are super rare, and not having the concede option is actually the best way (the way I see it) of getting rid of the utterly annoying defeatist "it's 8 minutes in and we're down 6 kills, gg afk concede" mentality that is EVERYWHERE in HoN.
So yeah, I'm glad Valve has this stance, and support it fully.
I'm in exactly the same boat. At first I was shocked that there wasn't a concede function, but now that I've given it a chance I'm really impressed with the results. This is one of those cases where less is more.
On March 26 2012 05:37 n0ise wrote:
no reason to not have a concede button tbh
especially considering those frustrating games in which the other team has better heroes + farm/xp on those heroes, yet you still kinda hold on and barely lose, and have to play through this barely but guaranteed loss for thirty more minutes.
ofc you can be down 9-10 kills and easily come back from the game (extremely common against retard teams that run all-5 around the map while you/your carry free farms somewhere safe), but if that's the case, you just don't concede lol
I guess there is a problem with overly bad people who can't tell a winnable situation from another, but that's why you need 5/5 for concede in the first place
The problem is that when there's a concede option, even if only 1 or 2 people are voting Yes on it, those one or two people are going to be pissed at their team mates for not also voting yes so that they can just get out of this "obviously lost game."
The mentality is just completely different. In DotA 2 when a teamfight goes south and you lose everyone, you think "oh shit that was awful we need to be careful not to do that again." In HoN, you think "Well that sucked, let's just concede."
All it takes is for a few people on your team to decide it's time to concede, and the loss becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Even if they don't intentionally feed or AFK in the fountain, the team's morale is broken and everyone just wants to get out of there and move on with their lives. Last edit: 2012-03-26 06:37:52 |
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 ControlMonkey Australia. March 26 2012 06:41. Posts 1508 | Profile Blog # |
Some more anecdotes:
I played 2 games yesterday which were effectively over at the 30 minute mark.
The first one we lost, and after winning a team fight 5-1 in our base, the opposing team backed off instead of finishing it. When you are down a set of rax and the other team has way more farm than you, it's just gg. But the game took another 20 minutes to end because the other team didn't want to finish it.
The second we were winning. We were up 5 towers to 2, had way more farm. After we took a set of rax and backed off, it still took us 10 minutes to safely push another set of rax and then go for the throne.
Even through we were trying to end it, the other team had to sit through us going trough the motions.
I am for a conceed function but it has to be done right. Maybe some combination of rax and time based? It should always require 5/5 votes. |
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| n0ise March 26 2012 07:10. Posts 2866 | Profile # |
Show nested quote +On March 26 2012 05:37 n0ise wrote:
no reason to not have a concede button tbh
especially considering those frustrating games in which the other team has better heroes + farm/xp on those heroes, yet you still kinda hold on and barely lose, and have to play through this barely but guaranteed loss for thirty more minutes.
ofc you can be down 9-10 kills and easily come back from the game (extremely common against retard teams that run all-5 around the map while you/your carry free farms somewhere safe), but if that's the case, you just don't concede lol
I guess there is a problem with overly bad people who can't tell a winnable situation from another, but that's why you need 5/5 for concede in the first place
The problem is that when there's a concede option, even if only 1 or 2 people are voting Yes on it, those one or two people are going to be pissed at their team mates for not also voting yes so that they can just get out of this "obviously lost game." The mentality is just completely different. In DotA 2 when a teamfight goes south and you lose everyone, you think "oh shit that was awful we need to be careful not to do that again." In HoN, you think "Well that sucked, let's just concede." All it takes is for a few people on your team to decide it's time to concede, and the loss becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Even if they don't intentionally feed or AFK in the fountain, the team's morale is broken and everyone just wants to get out of there and move on with their lives.
But what's stopping people from doing that now?
That is exactly my behaviour - if a game is lost beyond doubt, I will just go afk. The only difference is that I wouldn't be forced to tab out of the game. At least if 4 people vote against me in conceding, then I can actually say "ok fuck it" and keep playing, cos I know they feel like they have a shot.
And I'm obviously not gonna concede just because I wasn't paying attention and walked into tempest/SK/es ults and concede an otherwise unwinnable game.
Anyway, my point is that if someone wants to stop playing the game, he will anyway - but I also see what you say - people will be more likely to go emo if they actually have a game-option that allows them to do so  I guess I'm just more comfy with that than being forced to play out lost games.Last edit: 2012-03-26 07:11:30 |
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| Gummy United States. March 26 2012 07:24. Posts 2169 | Profile Blog # |
Blind concede. 30 second voting window. Doesn't tell you 4/5 1/5 votes. Doesn't tell you who voted. Having an extra option can only be harmful if other players know you have that option. Forcing the process to be blind somewhat mitigates that potential downside.
My only concern about not having a concede is that in non-tourney play people will be tempted to waste everybody's time and farm 5 DRs.
THen again, this could be offset by offering unlockable hats achievable by getting faster victories. |
| | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There are three kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't. |
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| red_ United States. March 26 2012 07:30. Posts 1983 | Profile # |
On March 26 2012 06:31 QuothTheRaven wrote:
All it takes is for a few people on your team to decide it's time to concede, and the loss becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Even if they don't intentionally feed or AFK in the fountain, the team's morale is broken and everyone just wants to get out of there and move on with their lives.
This argument makes no sense. You're saying that when people think the game is over, their play will reflect that attitude. Having or not having a concede option has no effect on this; people will still think a game is over after losing a teamfight 5-0 or 5-1 in their own base to lose rax(I'm aware that doesn't always mean game over, let's assume in this situation your team has worse late game so that a rallying cry of 'well if Spectre just gets fed while they take too long to finish, maybe we can still win' falls on deaf ears), the only difference is that in one scenario the game can end there, without the need for the winning team to back off and heal, maybe rosh, farm buyback money or finish that one last item, then finally go to end the game(because they don't want to hastily end and possibly throw the game, that's not me saying they are griefing, it's the correct play from a winning team). |
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| 1hpBuiltForLove Canada. March 26 2012 07:51. Posts 88 | Profile # |
If there are conditions that are set and agreed on, for when conceding is allowed for a team, it could work, however it is not necessary due to the afk, safe to leave announcement. From what I remember, people would concede only so that they could be allowed to leave a game. If a person is afk, or abandons, you are allowed to do this. I cannot think of too many reasons that conceding would need to be implemented, considering these were the biggest problems with the dota game, and have been resolved with dota 2, in my opinion.
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| mordk March 26 2012 07:59. Posts 7047 | Profile Blog # |
| Concede is bullshit, I absolutely kills any chance for a comeback, because a loser will eventually attempt to concede continuously hence destroying the team's will to fight to the end. I really hope there's no concede mechanic in Dota 2, it's really not necessary. |
| | "I haven't prepared anything in particular. I'm naturally good at everything. I'm good at eating too, so that's why I can't lose weight. I'm thinking maybe I'll dance as a ceremony, a dance that's popular lately" MC - discussing GSL grand finals | |
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| SnipedSoul Canada. March 26 2012 08:33. Posts 1741 | Profile # |
| Concede is a bad idea. I played a lot of HoN and it was nothing but concede spam anytime a team was ahead by 5 kills or 2 towers. A lot of players would just give up even though they weren't immature trolls or idiots. Without a concede system I feel that they would have stuck it out and tried to win. |
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