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 Mongolbonjwa Finland. March 28 2012 06:52. Posts 376 | Profile # |
I dont want to sound idiot or rude, but I have been thinking about this lately.
It is clear that Flash seems to be in a class of his own, when it comes to being very good player and results are absolutely amazing.
But one question has been in my mind for some time, what is the reason for this domination? I cant help but bring up one thing what should be taken in to consideration.
While Flash could be, and very well could be just way better than everyone else for some reason (brains), there might be some balance issues in the game that affects how succesful Flash has been.
For first, game like BW or any rts game like that is very likely to have imbalances in some form. It is possible that Flash has reached skill level where he is able to use those imbalances in his favor and thus, making so high winrates and winning so much tournaments.
I am not claiming anything, but here is some food for though.
What do you guys think? |
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| BreakfastBurrito United States. March 28 2012 06:54. Posts 666 | Profile # |
| Some evidence/examples would be nice |
| | Yapper891 if you are reading this, PM me. its Twisty. |  |
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| Mr.Pyro Denmark. March 28 2012 06:57. Posts 951 | Profile Blog # |
| I think he's just that good. |
| | P⊧[1]<a>[2]<a>[3]<a>tt | P ≝ 1.a.2.a.3.a.P |  |
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 Xiphos Canada. March 28 2012 07:03. Posts 5732 | Profile Blog # |
| The thing that makes Flash stands out in the battlefield is not that the game is broken. Rather, it is the strategy he uses in-game. Everytime a person goes "okay, I've deciphered his playstyle", Flash does the opposite of what he does previously. But some times, they manage to catch Flash of guard and somehow Flash choose the wrong opening, he will be in load of trouble. It is really a matter of keep moving on your toes so that one may follow his every footstep. |
| | 2012 - Remember of the Fallen Heroes and Command the way to your victory. |  |
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| Kaal Djibouti. March 28 2012 07:03. Posts 1622 | Profile Blog # |
Flash is just that good.
Everything he has innovated has been strong, but by no means overpowered. |
| | TL Anime Discussion IRC: #tladt on irc.rizon.net | Channel Mechwarrior Online on TL TS3 |
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| danl9rm United States. March 28 2012 07:03. Posts 2441 | Profile Blog # |
He's just that good. Also, I don't think it's possible to be "that good" with zerg. You can be as good, per se, but the sheer volatility and lack of depth of zerg makes it entirely unlikely for someone to achieve similar win rates - even if they had as much skill with their race.
You also might note that I root for Oz. Lol.Last edit: 2012-03-28 07:08:54 |
| | "Science has so well established that the preborn baby in the womb is a living human being that most pro-choice activists have conceded the point. ..since the abortion proponents have lost the science argument, they are now advocating an existential one." |  |
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 ArvickHero March 28 2012 07:04. Posts 9378 | Profile Blog # |
Flash is pretty much perfect in almost every regard of SC; decision-making, strategy, micro, macro. You look at all the other top players, and they come close but not quite (Bisu for instance, has a weakness in regards to PvT micro and PvP strategy. Jaedong is just slumping, mostly due to decision-making and strategy. Stork has the weakest mentality of the bunch).
Guarantee if you put Flash in any other race, he would dominate just as hard. Though, mirror MU-wise, he probably wouldn't have as high of a winrate (because ZvZ and PvP are less forgiving than TvT). |
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| jinfreaks United States. March 28 2012 07:07. Posts 20 | Profile # |
if there is any imbalance that flash takes advantage of, its the terran scan.
I remember in one interview, flash or effort stated that they would often play RvR. flash is also reputable to offrace protoss very well. In all likelihood, flash has extremely intimate knowledge in how other races play, including terran. There are some interviews where he states that he scanned and saw something out of the ordinary and just acted on that and was right. |
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| FeyFey Germany. March 28 2012 07:15. Posts 4695 | Profile # |
well if you can control 2 groups of mutas its really hard to stop you for someone less good x3. I observed that people playing against opponents that have been superior for a really long time, that they are a bit blocked when facing these superior opponents and actually play a bit worse. I don't think everyone is like this, but enough should be slightly affected even on pro level, that they are weaker against those people.
Its just a long term observation of me and other gamers though, so no scientific proof and i doubt you would be so good at one game, if something like this would affect you to much that it matters, but its an edge.
As for bw directly, the better your control is the more imbalanced your units become, thats normal in games. But i doubt he reached some wall, where suddenly all units become better and even then it would just mean he is better  .Last edit: 2012-03-28 07:17:36 |
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| Mrvoodoochild1 United States. March 28 2012 07:18. Posts 1434 | Profile # |
| He's the most talented RTS player to ever live. He also practices more then anyone. Both these factors make him a GOD. |
| | "let your freak flag fly" |  |
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| Skwid1g United States. March 28 2012 07:19. Posts 916 | Profile # |
| Maybe. Maybe Terran is the reason he's so dominant; but even if that's true, it only contributes to a tiny bit of his dominance. He'd be the best player out there with any race, he's that talented and practices that much. His macro, micro, decision making, nerves, mentality, etc. are just too good. |
| | NaDa/Fantasy/Zero/Soulkey pls | |
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| Mortality United States. March 28 2012 07:19. Posts 4790 | Profile Blog # |
Talent, good habits and hard work.
I think talent is self-explanatory. Everybody has a skill cap. No matter how much time you spend you won't get any better. Maybe your hands aren't up to it, maybe your reactions are too slow, maybe you just can't strategize on the fly fast enough. Whatever. Flash's talent ceiling is the bar.
Hard work is also self-explanatory. Whenever people talk about Flash (and also Jaedong and Bisu) they always talk about their incredible work ethic. Playing videogames all day is something that seems like "oh, wouldn't that be great?" to any "normal" person, stuck in school all day or stuck working a 9 to 5 and not really enjoying it. But when you have to play 14 hours a day, 7 days a week, that just takes a toll on you. And also it's important to be able to listen to coaches and follow their instruction. You aren't just sitting in front of a monitor practicing micro, although you do a lot of that too. Flash has shown himself to be highly coachable, which anyone who knows anything about competition will tell you that's one of the most important factors for success.
Good habits is the last thing, and that's harder to nail down. But, if you look at it, part of the reason why old gamers are forced to retire by the next generation is that anyone playing this game is going to develop habits in terms of how you manage your units, your macro, etc., what tactics you like to employ, etc. Flash is no exception to this. The difference is that when Flash was developing, he purposely chose to develop the habits that would wind up making him the best. If you watch some of the other mechanically superior players (Effort, Bisu, Jaedong, even Fantasy) and compare them to Flash, it always seems like their screen moves around a lot more than Flash's does. This is because Flash focuses only on what's most important. Honestly I think that Jaedong's hands may be faster than Flash's. Bisu's as well. And possibly Effort's. But Flash is better at focusing on what's important, rather than chasing all over the map. If that makes sense... |
| | Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature |
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| Jealous United States. March 28 2012 07:25. Posts 2200 | Profile Blog # |
If you're looking for imbalances, I propose a different search: skills that the Terran race has that Flash utilizes to the best of his ability. I'll be redundant (relative to other contributions to this thread) and list a few:
1) Scanning
Although recently he has displayed an exploitable pattern in scanning, it is because he has reached a level of precision and timing with scans that gives him near-maphax comprehension of the enemy's build that he is able to cut corners in his own BO so accurately most of the time. This of course leads to advantages that are often imperceptible to the casual non-Korean-speaking viewer.
2) Repair
Why do few people cheese Flash nowadays? It's because of the Terran ability to repair their first bunker,their wall, their turrets, and their CC. This ability is what allows for the Rax FE opening. Although it has been less frequently used recently (an on-the-spot guess with a few years of BW viewership and no actual stats to back this up, could be wrong), it is in my opinion a large factor for why Flash is hard to hit when he goes for this build and other repair-centric builds.
3) Floating buildings
Floating his forward rax to fill the wall at his nat, floating his CC to expansions that would otherwise be exposed if he were forced to plant a Nexus there, floating engineering bays to give vision behind a natural mineral line, floating Rax when doing a mech switch to gain vision of the map: these are things that most pros are capable of, but I suspect that Flash is best at utilizing. The reason for this hypothesis is his recent attraction to forward Rax builds which have only recently been used in games where he lost in TvP, and probably not due to the forward rax placement at all. Just to present all the potential factors.
4) The vA and vG range of Goliaths/Tanks respectively.
Although this is more race-centric and probably closer to what you would consider imbalance, I feel that Flash's tank layout is prettier, his Goliath targeting better than other T. This leads him to utilize the maximum range of these units to their greatest capacity.
These are opinions of a max C protoss who has watched most of but analyzed few of Flash's games in the past 4-5 years.Last edit: 2012-03-28 07:41:02 |
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| hellbound United Kingdom. March 28 2012 07:29. Posts 2242 | Profile # |
On March 28 2012 07:03 danl9rm wrote:
He's just that good. Also, I don't think it's possible to be "that good" with zerg. You can be as good, per se, but the sheer volatility and lack of depth of zerg makes it entirely unlikely for someone to achieve similar win rates - even if they had as much skill with their race.
You also might note that I root for Oz. Lol.
Gibberish. Lack of depth? Zerg has the most complicated economy management and the most flexible production. You dishonour your Oz badge.
Flash is good. All there is to it. |
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| Lightwip United States. March 28 2012 07:29. Posts 5497 | Profile Blog # |
Balance may or may not be an issue, that's certainly arguable.
He really shines in execution and strategy. He tends to have a pretty good grasp of what the opponent will do at any time.
+ Show Spoiler +He's also pretty good at cheesing. Last edit: 2012-03-28 07:30:30 |
| | If you are not Bisu, chances are I hate you. | |
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| blueblimp Canada. March 28 2012 07:31. Posts 251 | Profile # |
| I believe Flash said in an interview that if he were starting over, he'd play Zerg instead because of the large racial advantage against Protoss and manageable racial disadvantage against Terran. That may be the case, but I doubt that he could maintain as high a winrate in ZvZ as he maintains in TvT, simply because the games are shorter, which disadvantages the more skilled player. |
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| Chef March 28 2012 07:32. Posts 9708 | Profile Blog # |
lol what a terrible OP. Common. Here are some factors I think contributed to Flash's success
-He became a progamer very young and has had time to develop (he wasn't always that fearsome, he was just pretty good before)
-He was on KT with some of the biggest stars and names you could ever hope to surround yourself with. Searching for reasons Flash has such incredible confidence and stage presence? Some of the could be from here. The rest of it comes from the game just being second nature since he has played on TV since he was a kid.
-He doesn't get shaken easily. He takes loses with grace and learns from them. A lot of players start slumping when they lose a really tragic game or they have a bad day, but Flash doesn't let that happen to him.
-He's very calm during games. If you've seen glimpses of his FPVODs this proleague, you'll see that there's some points in the game where he's very neatly moving his units without becoming frantic or overexerted. He knows where and when his attention is needed, he doesn't look tense on stage... He's just relaxed and focused. That's critical to his ability to react to cheese and tricky situations.
-Other tediously obvious things like hard work, sacrificing his body to improve even when he's already at the top etc.
To call Terran imbalanced because Flash seems unstoppable right now is just an insult to his dedication and skill. Every race in Brood War has many ways to win. That is why TBLS has all three races in it, why Yellow, Boxer, Reach were not all the same race... It's just silly to say Flash is amazing because he's Terran. He would be just as good at Protoss or Zerg if he had played them from the beginning.
Compare what I've said about Flash to other top players:
Bisu: sometimes looks very unfocused. When he is into it he performs amazingly, but when he's got that dumb dazed look on his face you can pretty much predict his loss, and it's why he slumped for so long.
Stork: very self-conscious. Gets angry over losses. He gets over his anger and players well again, but on that final stage there's a reason he's a silver hero, and it's because he gets nerves.
Jaedong: I love him, but there's no denying that he is super tense every game. He doesn't play relaxed like Flash does and he's earned ridicule over the faces he makes during games because he does get so strung during them. He's got amazing confidence like Flash, but he's prone to mistakes from his tenseness (which leads him to be very aggressive).Last edit: 2012-03-28 07:38:17 |
| | LEGEND!! LEGEND!! |  |
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| Jealous United States. March 28 2012 07:32. Posts 2200 | Profile Blog # |
On March 28 2012 07:29 hellbound wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 28 2012 07:03 danl9rm wrote:
He's just that good. Also, I don't think it's possible to be "that good" with zerg. You can be as good, per se, but the sheer volatility and lack of depth of zerg makes it entirely unlikely for someone to achieve similar win rates - even if they had as much skill with their race.
You also might note that I root for Oz. Lol.
Gibberish. Lack of depth? Zerg has the most complicated economy management and the most flexible production. You dishonour your Oz badge. Flash is good. All there is to it.
I won't argue about which race is deeper, but I would like to note that plague, swarm, and ensnare are skills that are so useful and powerful that a lot of ZvT (probably ZvP also, but I have little understanding of the MU unfortunately) strategies/builds center upon getting to the Hive stage of the game where you can use at least one of the three, often two (plague + swarm is a serious combination). Savior has shown that Zerg has a lot of advantages in tactics as well, read the FE on that if you still doubt that. |
| | бум бум сучка! | |
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| shaftofpleasure Korea (North). March 28 2012 07:34. Posts 1127 | Profile Blog # |
On March 28 2012 07:29 Lightwip wrote:Balance may or may not be an issue, that's certainly arguable. He really shines in execution and strategy. He tends to have a pretty good grasp of what the opponent will do at any time. + Show Spoiler +He's also pretty good at cheesing.
You never cease to disappoint with your comments about flash! I wholeheartedly agree  |
| | It's either the holes of my nose are getting smaller or my fingers are getting bigger. /// Always Rooting for the Underdog. Hyuk/Sin/Jaehoon/Juni/Hyvva/Hoejja/Canata //// Hiding in thread somewhere where BW is still in it's pure form here on TL. | |
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| Jealous United States. March 28 2012 07:37. Posts 2200 | Profile Blog # |
On March 28 2012 07:32 Chef wrote:
lol what a terrible OP. Common. Here are some factors I think contributed to Flash's success
-He became a progamer very young and has had time to develop (he wasn't always that fearsome, he was just pretty good before)
-He was on KT with some of the biggest stars and names you could ever hope to surround yourself with. Searching for reasons Flash has such incredible confidence and stage presence? Some of the could be from here. The rest of it comes from the game just being second nature since he has played on TV since he was a kid.
-He doesn't get shaken easily. He takes loses with grace and learns from them. A lot of players start slumping when they lose a really tragic game or they have a bad day, but Flash doesn't let that happen to him.
-He's very calm during games. If you've seen glimpses of his FPVODs this proleague, you'll see that there's some points in the game where he's very neatly moving his units without becoming frantic or overexerted. He knows where and when his attention is needed, he doesn't look tense on stage... He's just relaxed and focused. That's critical to his ability to react to cheese and tricky situations.
-Other tediously obvious things like hard work, sacrificing his body to improve even when he's already at the top etc.
To call Terran imbalanced because Flash seems unstoppable right now is just an insult to his dedication and skill. Every race in Brood War has many ways to win. That is why TBLS has all three races in it, why Yellow, Boxer, Reach were not all the same race... It's just silly to say Flash is amazing because he's Terran. He would be just as good at Protoss or Zerg if he had played them from the beginning.
I would like to begrudgingly add that as upsetting it is to say this, I think that Terrans have the most individual league wins (perhaps more than Z+P combined, or close to it) because their players were simply better than the opposition at the time. That is also why the torch was passed so frequently - other players and races study the best player and how to beat them, because they play the most games in individual leagues, leading to the situations where the other races won a league (with exceptions of finals such as Jangbi vs. Luxury/Jaedong and Best vs. July, for example). |
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