[L] Some questions from someone switching to Z

The two matchups I've found challenging since switching are ZvZ and ZvT. I'm high gold(for context), and I have a few questions on these two matchups.

So, as far as ZvT do you think someone at my level can control Zergling infestor effectively, and if so, can I have some tips? If not what unit composition should I go? I find that with ling bling muta I'm not cost efficient at all because my control isn't quite there. And other general tips on ZvT would be helpful as I have found I understand this matchup the least.

As far as ZvZ how can I be the most safe? That is have a defense and not get killed by random ling runbys, and what do you Z out there like to do in this matchup.

And as a simple side question is it better to take 4 or 5 drones from one base and maynard when my expansion comes up or to just rally to the new base?

Last edit: 2012-03-30 06:23:03

digitaltomato Lithuania. March 30 2012 06:35. Posts 17

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i also recently switched to zerg, and have problem with bio terran(lots of marines, medivacs etc) should i do mass ling with some ultras? Or there are better ways

IMLyte Canada. March 30 2012 06:51. Posts 671

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Mid Masters, for ZvT Ling, Infestor + rush to brood is the most effective strategy right now but Ling/Bling Muta is still viable. if your control isn't good I find it harder to play Infestor style cause they're so damn slow. whereas i find Ling/Bling Muta pretty easy "a" click and just controling the banes to hit marines.

ZvZ is kind of a weird match-up and ull get better with experience. I usually 15 hatch and then 16 pool 16 gas (not as risky as it may sound) if your opponent 6 - 10 pools you can stall time for your pool to pop while making sure not to lose too many drones and if he 14/14 then your ahead in econ and their's no imminent threat. also if you see no expo from your opponent use your first 50 gas to get a baneling nest to hold off his ling/bling allin (otherwise get baneling nest after zling speed). In mid game i usually get a third a lot of spines and go for mutas' after making 8 mutas i immediately transition by throwing down Infestation pit and Roach and continue to play out the game that way. **** ZvZ is very scouting based knowing when your opponent is pumping units and when he's pumping drones is very important. (you want to pump units when he does and attack or pump drones when he pumps drones)

Hope this helps! GL on Ladder

Last edit: 2012-03-30 06:53:41

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ETisME Hong Kong. March 30 2012 13:02. Posts 4903

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I feel ling infestors was easier for me when I was in gold because the terran isn't so well on spreading the marines and there are less multi proned drops to deal with.

ZvZ is a tough match up, try to go 14/14 for earlier speed and learn to use your drones to trap the early lings if he goes for early pool. I myself like 15 hatch (quite a gamble), 14 pool, 17 gas and a baneling nest before speed to prevent any mass lings play

naggerNZ New Zealand. March 30 2012 13:24. Posts 700

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Ling/Infestor is easier to micro than Muta/Ling/Bane. Just move command your infestors at the enemy, attack move your lings, then start dropping fungals on the bio and infested terrans on the tanks. ezpz.

For ZvZ, since you're only Gold, your ling/baneling micro is probably pretty bad. You can either just go with 1base roach every game (which will probably win you games just fine in Gold league, but won't get you very far) or you can go with a 1base bane all-in until you have the fundamentals of ling/baneling micro down.

Last edit: 2012-03-30 13:48:25

Graphix United States. March 30 2012 13:29. Posts 159

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i am a bronze and have been playing for less than a month so take my post as such:

i origionally started by playing protoss and didnt connect to it. I switched to zerg.
ZvT is VERY dificult for me as well for the same reason (mass stimmed bio, with siege tanks). i have tried Ling,Bane,Muta and i havent been able to make it work, and same with infestor ling to brood lord.
i usually try to do a 14extractor/14pool and just try to get as much Stuff as i can as fast as i can without harming the econ.

ZvP isnt really as much of a problem for me. I usually go mass roaches and just push usually with some lings and harass with mutas. For me, surviving the early game with as little of damage as possible is the key.

Hope something i have said helped. GL

Stoopid0boi Australia. March 30 2012 14:28. Posts 48

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High masters random player (I don't cheese) for context. I feel that the two main styles of zvt depend on your own play style. For example long bling muta is much more micro intensive because of the fact that you have to do damage with you mutas. And infestors are a more reactive method of play (my person view please don't rage). I personally play a mixture of the 2 styles and get double upgrades for lings and get mutas. Because mutas are so bad in a straight out fight I find that the upgrades make my army much stronger.

For zvz, a build I do is 15 hatch into 16 pool and 17 gas. Depending on their opening you place a certain amount of drones into your gas geyser. if 14 14 then 3 drones and get bling nest ASAP. If 15 hatch put 2 in gas and go delayed roaches. I tend to get atleast 2 spines in my natural with a quick third queen to ensure you get double injects

lysergic United States. March 30 2012 14:56. Posts 319

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Watch DRG/Nestea replays to learn correct build orders, saturation, worker/unit rally, scouting/reactions, and anything else you'd want to know about zerg. There's a ton of them in the MLG Winter Arena replay pack.

DRG and Nestea rally their main to natural once there's 16 drones mining in the main; use that to figure out how many to transfer. It's also somewhat situational - sometimes 4-6 are pulled if Terran starts a bunker or you know there's a proxy rax etc.
DRG also makes sure his queen production is lined up so his injects are in sync.

Since you're in gold, I'm sure your mechanics are terrible and that's what you really should work on instead of worrying whether to go infestor or muta. I hope you aren't doing the base camera inject method (or something even worse like minimap injecting or using Dark Grid layout). I suggest you copy the hotkey setup Idra uses (1-3 units, 4 hatcheries, 5-8 consecutive queens).

Belial88 United States. March 30 2012 15:09. Posts 5217

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This has been asked a million times already. Please, please, please, UTFSE.

So, as far as ZvT do you think someone at my level can control Zergling infestor effectively, and if so, can I have some tips? If not what unit composition should I go? I find that with ling bling muta I'm not cost efficient at all because my control isn't quite there. And other general tips on ZvT would be helpful as I have found I understand this matchup the least.

As far as ZvZ how can I be the most safe? That is have a defense and not get killed by random ling runbys, and what do you Z out there like to do in this matchup.

And as a simple side question is it better to take 4 or 5 drones from one base and maynard when my expansion comes up or to just rally to the new base?

- I prefer ling/bane/muta. I've writtent he general build order a million times in zerg help me thread, search my posts, You basically use 20+ mutas on 4 bases vs 3 base T to keep terran stuck inside his base else you wreck him. As long as you keep mutas alive, you will crush any push he makes. Then, when terran starts geting a large 3 base army, you go for broodlords while the mutas delay T indefinitely. I don't like ling/infestor, it seems like flavor of the month more than an actual stable build, it's came and gone before, and it didn't work too well in the GSL recently. I think it would be beyond your level anyways, people who play that style usually have mastered ling/bane/muta, that's why they can do it.

And it's extremely map specific. None of the current ladder maps have extremely easy to take thirds for both races, very large map distances, no airspace around bases for muta harass, impossibly hard to take fourths, and lack of multiple attack routes. And extremely large map distance. And usually as a 'counter' build to fast third T opening hellions into rine/tank/upgrades.

ZvZ, go 14/14/21. It's a shit build for general play, but it's great until you reach high masters (which I'm not even at anyways). Get baneling nest around 30, get 1 spine whenever necessary (maybe before 30, or after, or never if you are aggressive). Get evo chamber and 2nd gas ~40 if opponent moves past just ling/bane or is passive.

From there depends on opponent, but basically either take third if he takes third or is droning up and no one has roach warren ~50 and lair at 68, or go lair ~55 and choose the tech you feel is necessary and take third while tech is still morphing.

If ling runbys are an issue, 1 spine to buy time, overlord spread (who does ling runbys in zvz anymore?).

Depends. If you take great care in drone pairing, then rally new workers until the bases even out and then reset rallies to either new bases or their respective mineral fields. If you don't worker pair, then just maynard half, and keep hatches rallying workers to their respective fields.

For example, my build order is worked out so finely in ZvT that when my new hatch is 25 seconds from completion (17 drone build time, ~5 second transfer time, ~5 second mining at field before going to return cargo), or 3/4ths done, I have 3 drones rallied to the new hatch (which is also where I take first geyser) and exactly 16 drones perfectly paired on each mineral field in main.

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Big J Austria. March 30 2012 15:54. Posts 5040

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ZvT:
I think like Belial said, Muta/ling/bling is the "easier" build to learn, mostly because you won't die so much against drops and midgame cheeses.
Generally I think, at your level the most important thing to learn as a zerg is, when to drone. Try to play around with as little gas as possible in the early game, which means: late gas (~26supply; around the time you build your third overlord), get speed with first 100gas, get lair with second 100gas and try to play as greedy as you can get away with.
It makes it way easier if you can start the midgame of a very solid economy, because from there on the game becomes much more forgiving for zerg; you don't just lose anymore because you made an unnecessary round of units, something that happens a lot in the early game.

for ZvZ:
Again like Belial said, 14g/14p/21h is a good build to start playing, alternatively I want to recommend 16h/15g/14p - you build your hatch at 16supply and immidiatly add a gas and then wait for 200minerals, add a pool and start zergling speed the moment your pool finishes.
If your opponent goes for a 14/14 build, your speed should finish in time for any attack and if he goes for a gasless hatch first build, you can often just kill him with mass speedling/baneling. Else you can simply go for a macro game.

Last edit: 2012-03-30 15:54:20

-Exalt- United States. March 30 2012 15:58. Posts 966

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IMO until you get to a high level, play a ling baneling + muta ZvT style. the reason being, low level terrans probably are bad at defending mutas properly.. with mutas out on the map they will feel a lot more pressure than if you just go infestor/ling.

for ZvZ look up destiny 4 gate (on TL), it's a really old build but it still works up until masters MMR.. really easy to execute and crushes any early ling baneling shenanigans. that's an all in though, if you want to play standard learn a baneling expand style by watching pro's play, seems to be the dominating opening in ZvZ nowadays (ling speed > expand > baneling nest).

Last edit: 2012-03-30 15:59:58

corose United States. March 30 2012 17:32. Posts 31

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Yes, of course you can cantrol ling infestor, and the only way you'd get good enough to is by doing it. The more you do it the more familiar you'll get.

Just use one hotkey for both lings and infestors, no need to complicate it, and you can see a lot of GMs hotkeyed like this too, even though it's probably not ideal if you have their control.
At your level (or GM if you're stephano), you can probably get away with mass lings and a couple banes too. If you take an early-ish third, around the seven minute mark, and upgrade heavy on 3 gas, you can over make lings, and if they go mass marine, add a few banes. Spam hatches and keep injecting and you're good to go!

For ZvZ, i recommend practicing your ling/bane control by going 14/14 all in. Just focus on controlling your banes from not exploding on queens/buildings. Once you have gotten the hang of it, then if you want to play defensive, macro style, you can hatch at 20, deny mining vs hatch first, and defend with ling/bane!

GL!

Drunken.Jedi Germany. March 30 2012 17:57. Posts 390

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On March 30 2012 06:16 SCTallbus wrote:
The two matchups I've found challenging since switching are ZvZ and ZvT. I'm high gold(for context), and I have a few questions on these two matchups.

So, as far as ZvT do you think someone at my level can control Zergling infestor effectively, and if so, can I have some tips? If not what unit composition should I go? I find that with ling bling muta I'm not cost efficient at all because my control isn't quite there. And other general tips on ZvT would be helpful as I have found I understand this matchup the least.

Unfortunately there really isn't an easy way of playing ZvT aside from all ins. Both Muta-based builds and Infestor-based builds require good control. Since it currently looks like Infestor builds are overall better and more solid and Muta builds seem to be on the way to becoming obsolete, it's best to just stick to Infestor builds.
As far as for controlling Ling Infestor, it's very helpful to have Lings and Infestors on seperate control groups. When engaging a terran with siege tanks, start the engagement by throwing a small number of infested terrans toward him to take the first volley from the tanks and then immediately send in your lings and infestors. Be careful not to cast fungal too fast since they don't stack. If the battle isnt going well, it's very important to retreat your infestors in time as preserving your infestor count as much as possible is very important.

As far as ZvZ how can I be the most safe? That is have a defense and not get killed by random ling runbys, and what do you Z out there like to do in this matchup.

There really isn't any way to play safe in ZvZ since the matchup is so dynamic. If you're playing safe in a game where you don't already have a significant lead, then that really just means that you didn't make enough drones.

As for ling runbys, if you have a baneling nest, leaving one or two banelings behind in your base can help a lot, especially a baneling at the top of your ramp is very useful.

ZvZ is quite diverse, but currently the most common style in high level ZvZ is to get a relatively fast third and then go into Roach Hydra (with mostly Roach, as Hydras are bad if you don't have a good number of Roaches tanking for them) or Roach Infestor, with the former being the more aggressive composition.

And as a simple side question is it better to take 4 or 5 drones from one base and maynard when my expansion comes up or to just rally to the new base?

Normally it's better to saturate up to 2 per mineral patch and then start rallying to another expansion, the only time you want to transfer before that is if you might need those drones to fight, for instance against a Terran who's bunker rushing you.

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