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| scDeluX Canada. March 31 2012 00:29. Posts 1246 | Profile Blog # |
The "developers often ignore the advice of QA testers" is true in pretty much all IT. Just the same as infrastructure guys don't listen to tech support. I'd think it's really worse in video game industry.
As for they don't get pay much, work overtime and have no employement security it could be said about a lot of jobs. Video game tester doesn't require studies, therefore you don't bring important expertise to your buisness and you threated that way.
I don't agree with this but sadly it's how our world works. |
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| scDeluX Canada. March 31 2012 00:31. Posts 1246 | Profile Blog # |
On March 31 2012 00:25 Krowser wrote:
Can you post the article in a spoiler? Almost everything is blocked over here.
Thanks
+1. I'd like too. THAT WEBSENSE !!!! |
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| DeVx United States. March 31 2012 00:31. Posts 85 | Profile # |
Speaking as a QA tester, I find the article lacks any real information about what's really happening. This person who wrote obviously never contacted HR for the contractors.
As game tester, yea it can get tedious at times because you won't see a new build for weeks, or worse months so you're stuck playing the same game over and over but that's what we're paid to do. I remember the longest I had to work was 36 days straight 12hr days.
If anything the reason why the developers don't like the QA testers in this article is because they're bragging to the developers telling THEM they need to change parts of the game. As a QA tester, our job isn't to tell the developer what needs to be changed, we inform them of bugs that are occurring and if the developers feel it's a bug that needs to be fixed they will, if they don't well no big deal, it's their game they'll get the bad review for it.
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| Podzz United Kingdom. March 31 2012 00:35. Posts 14 | Profile # |
QA is generally considered a rout into the games industry for more posts. This being the case you would expect to have to work hard to succeed and get noticed. No one is forced to do unpaid over time.
As for the long hours everyone is in the same boat. from the junior artists up to the directors. We work hard for a reason, because we love it. |
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| Too_MuchZerg Finland. March 31 2012 00:35. Posts 2728 | Profile Blog # |
On March 31 2012 00:17 Jealous wrote: My own experience with this job is similar. Especially the fact that the "developers often ignore the advice of QA testers." 100% true.
I never got advice from QA testers when I was game programmer. I guess designers got those from QA lead tester instead. But I did fix every bug I got from bug database. We chatted a lot with QA testers if we didn't manage to reproduce bug.
And I always told QA testers to mark bugs to database even how small it is or I fixed while he was talking to me.Last edit: 2012-03-31 00:39:07 |
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| Equity213 Canada. March 31 2012 00:36. Posts 868 | Profile # |
Its called supply and demand. If you dont like your job, quit. Theres tons of other people who would like to have it. You would have played video games all day anyways. I dont get the outrage.Last edit: 2012-03-31 00:36:59 |
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| Hairy United Kingdom. March 31 2012 00:36. Posts 1045 | Profile # |
On March 31 2012 00:26 TheToast wrote: Also if someone is getting paid via an hourly wage, you cannot force them to work 92 hours per week without paying overtime. That's against federal law in the US and I am guessing the EU has fairly strict laws on this as well. I highly doubt these people are salaried. In the US overtime means time and a half, so $15 per hour which honestly isn't too bad for a menial occupation.
When you join any company you must sign a "terms of employment" contract (every employer will have a similar contract you sign). However, in games work this contract states you give up the right to overtime pay and that you accept to working more weekly hours. If you don't agree to this contract, you get no job. |
| | Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits |
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| kanada Canada. March 31 2012 00:42. Posts 228 | Profile # |
| this is why i don't understand sony's reality series to win a job as a tester. |
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| ThatBronyGuy United States. March 31 2012 00:47. Posts 169 | Profile Blog # |
When I had finished school a couple years ago and was doing the job searching, I had actually applied for a couple positions at game companies and some of those positions did include game testing. Unfortunately, one thing that I came across is that the people they are looking for game testing usually need to be in the same area as the game company. In the listing, there would be a request for someone living in the Austin, TX area or somewhere on the West Coast. A little disheartening since I am from the East Coast and there really isn't much out this way. I suppose, in some way, it was a good thing for it not to happen.
Anyway, back more on topic, I would say that game testing would be a similar occupation to a normal McDonald's staff member. As others have said, these kinds of jobs are like lowest common denominator jobs where there are certainly skills needed to perform them, it's just that the skills can found in a wide range of people or, at least, can be taught. With such a wide base for possible employees, you can be easily seen as the next chopping block, if you were to get to a higher pay level, promotion, etc.
For example, "Why keep the same person on the team and pay him more when you can find a similar person and put him on the lowest pay scale?" That's something I can see project heads and other execs. saying.
If there was any meaningful change that could be in the works, I would say if would have to come from the top and go down. There's really nothing that the people in these positions can do and just not be replaced. It would have to take someone who understands what's going on and really want to affect change. It's a sad state that a part of the industry that we love to take part in has these seedy under-bellies that make it look so ugly. While I respect businesses and what a business can stand for, it's situations like these that really make me reflect on how I act in my own business environment and how I work with others, no matter what level they may be.Last edit: 2012-03-31 00:47:43 |
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| Hairy United Kingdom. March 31 2012 00:48. Posts 1045 | Profile # |
On March 31 2012 00:36 Equity213 wrote: Its called supply and demand. If you dont like your job, quit. Theres tons of other people who would like to have it. You would have played video games all day anyways. I dont get the outrage.
Being a games QA / tester is VERY different from "playing video games all day". If you had actually read any of the article you would have known this.
This isn't anything particularly new though - it's well known that the games industry can have some pretty shitty working conditions and extreme overtime, and these conditions aren't restricted to only QA. It isn't a big secret either - anyone being caught out by this has simply not done their research into what the industry is like, or have wildly unrealistic expectations as to what being a games tester actually involves. |
| | Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits |
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| TheToast United States. March 31 2012 00:52. Posts 4804 | Profile Blog # |
On March 31 2012 00:29 scDeluX wrote: As for they don't get pay much, work overtime and have no employement security it could be said about a lot of jobs. Video game tester doesn't require studies, therefore you don't bring important expertise to your buisness and you threated that way.
I don't agree with this but sadly it's how our world works.
Pretty much this. I don't see how being a game QA tester is any different from being a QA tester in a lightbulb factory. Some knowlege of the process and product is required, but for the most part you sit there all day and do the same thing over and over looking for defects in the product. When big orders come in, I'm sure you'd be doing long hours there as well.
On March 31 2012 00:36 Hairy wrote: Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 00:26 TheToast wrote: Also if someone is getting paid via an hourly wage, you cannot force them to work 92 hours per week without paying overtime. That's against federal law in the US and I am guessing the EU has fairly strict laws on this as well. I highly doubt these people are salaried. In the US overtime means time and a half, so $15 per hour which honestly isn't too bad for a menial occupation.
When you join any company you must sign a "terms of employment" contract (every employer will have a similar contract you sign). However, in games work this contract states you give up the right to overtime pay and that you accept to working more weekly hours. If you don't agree to this contract, you get no job.
I guess this is the only part of this that I would find annoying. But then, I guess you should get a different job. The lightbulb factory probably even has a union. |
| | I like the way the walls go out. Gives you an open feeling. Firefly's a good design. People don't appreciate the substance of things. Objects in space. People miss out on what's solid. | |
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| Roflhaxx Norway. March 31 2012 00:56. Posts 1011 | Profile # |
On March 31 2012 00:31 scDeluX wrote: Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 00:25 Krowser wrote:
Can you post the article in a spoiler? Almost everything is blocked over here.
Thanks
+1. I'd like too. THAT WEBSENSE !!!!
I have copied the whole thing into spoiler now. Deliberately didn't do it at first so that people would actually bother to read original article instead of my copy. |
| | A game where the first thing you do is scout with a “worker”. Does that make any sense? Who scouts with a “worker”? That’s like sending out the janitor to perform recon, what general would do that? Retarded game. |
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| haegN Norway. March 31 2012 01:02. Posts 473 | Profile # |
| I wonder why you put "force". I see no forcing of any kind, these people are working there voluntarily! I agree that this isnt the best way to treat your employees, but if they dont like it, they can just change jobs. |
| | None can give you skills, ubermicro, wins or anything. If you are man - you take it! |
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| paralleluniverse Australia. March 31 2012 01:05. Posts 2972 | Profile # |
On March 30 2012 23:50 Roflhaxx wrote:Came over an article on IGN where they have talked to some guys who work with QA at several companies. They have been forced to work 92/h a week for months without pay (crunchtime, like with devs). And I should mention that while working this much the hours they are actually paid for they only make 10$ an hour!! They are all anonymous so we do not know what companies they work for, but one of them says that he worked on testing skyrim. One thing the article mentions that is really relevant for us gamers The truth, according to Phil, is that "many reported bugs don't get fixed." Furthermore, developers often ignore the advice of QA testers.
Here is a quote from the article Because playing videogames all day as a career has been heavily glamorized, companies are never at a loss for willing recruits. "Everyone in QA is expendable," says Frank. Reuben adds, "If management doesn't like someone, they just refuse to renew their contract, thus avoiding any hassle at all. This leads to people who start asking questions about workload and length to be branded as trouble makers and their contracts are simply not extended." Another quote I find very offensive is While financial benefits are one form of compensation, Danny believes that respect is also severely lacking. "We deserve to be treated like regular employees, instead of someone you don't invite to your Christmas party but then tell them to have their own last minute [party] in another building through the back entrance...True story." Link to article (IGN)All this makes me wonder, is there really no kind of security for workers in USA? Can you really be forced to work like this? Don't you have some kind of labour inspection people you can contact? Article linked in spoiler, but if you can of course go to ign's website to read this, support people who write these kinds of articles. + Show Spoiler +What gamer hasn't dreamed about playing games for a living? While this may seem like a great career, and a cool way to get a first job in the games business, the truth is less appealing.
IGN reached out to quality assurance (QA) testers from all over the world to hear their sides of the story. We received dozens of emails from contributors across numerous game companies. They told us stories of demanding working conditions, low pay and shaky worker morale.
They have been employed by a broad range of publishers, including traditional games publishers and newer outfits operating in the mobile games business.
QA testers sign non-disclosure agreements (NDAs) with their employers and can be fired or even sued for divulging information. All the testers we contacted spoke to us on condition of anonymity. We have given them pseudonyms to protect their identities. We have checked each of their credentials. We asked for comments from a variety of games publishers, but have received zero responses.
Tedious Tasks
While the job may sound like a dream come true, Reuben says it's really not about getting paid to play games all day. "Imagine your favorite movie. Now take your favorite 30-second clip from that movie. Now watch that 30-second clip over and over again, 12 hours a day, every day for two months. When you've done that, tell me if what you've been doing is watching movies all day. I'm willing to bet you'll find that it's not quite the same thing...You get an area of the game, that's your area, and you test everything about that one area for months on end."
Furthermore, testers don't get the luxury of choosing the titles they'd like to play. "It's very boring playing a kid's game over and over," says Rich.
Frank adds, "I have seen people quit gaming because of the frustration of the process plus the repetitive nature of playing a game that you may hate or not recognize as something you would play. You get jaded."
Poor Compensation
Though some boring and repetitive jobs can pay decently, game testers do not get compensated nearly as well. Because the industry is made up almost entirely of contractors with zero union protection, they receive no benefits or negotiating power.
Companies often pay contractors a higher base pay in lieu of benefits, but Danny only made $10 an hour. Extrapolating this data, means the average salary for a full-time position is roughly a meager $20,800. The federal minimum wage is $7.25, but game-testers are information workers, not burger flippers. It takes skill and knowledge to test and judge a game.
Though the industry doesn't pay well for entry-level positions, what about more seasoned QA testers? Danny says, "I work with a guy who has spent the last eight years keeping his nose clean, never in fights with leadership, does whatever is asked of him, and is a freaking QA Ninja when it comes to PC testing. After eight years, he is still paid $14 an hour. I just think we're worth a whole heck of a lot more than $10 an hour." He believes that game developers/publishers should "offer some benefits like they do the rest of the company".
Lack of Respect
Keith tells a story about how his employer was too cheap to give him a promised copy of the game he'd worked on. He wrote, that "after two months and forty hours a week of playing this game, there was no way in hell I was going to buy it."
While financial benefits are one form of compensation, Danny believes that respect is also severely lacking. "We deserve to be treated like regular employees, instead of someone you don't invite to your Christmas party but then tell them to have their own last minute [party] in another building through the back entrance...True story."
"I am absolutely not alone in these feelings," he adds. "Most probably won't voice their opinion for fear of getting fired; others who might are already out of the industry because of the very conditions I'm talking about."
Harsh Working Conditions
Unlike typical nine-to-five jobs, the final months leading up to the release of a videogame company's product have been come to known as "crunch time."
According to tester Pete, there were numerous occasions in which he was neglected pay. "They had us stay overtime on the studio for a particular game release, but they never paid those extra hours worked."
For Frank, this meant mandatory overtime every day. "It got borderline illegal. It got to that point when I was so tired at three or four in the morning that I passed out a couple of times. Others did too and not anyone of us disturbed that person. We just let it go for a bit and brought each other back to life when we needed to."
Sleep deprivation wasn't the only way these harsh hours physically affected Frank and company. "Our nutrition habits were horrible. The only thing near us that was open at those hours: a McDonalds attached to a Chevron station that we quaintly called 'Chevronalds.' I was feeling like s*** and I just wanted to get it over with."
Reuben says that maintaining a healthy family life extremely difficult. "Once the overtime starts, the hours seem to be nearly endless...My longest period of straight overtime lasted just over seven months where my shortest work week was 65 hours and my longest was 92. This was stretched out over two projects that just bled straight into each other."
Poor Job Security
Compounding the physical and mental stresses that QA testers endure was the complete lack of job security. "During training, they told us it's not a matter of 'if' you'll be laid-off but 'when'," says Keith. "They flat-out tell you that what makes a good employee is the number of bugs you find and it is this number that will determine if you are kept on or not." This methodology, however, did not accurately take into account the quality of dedication that went into a project. "Here I was recreating and logging how to get stuck in the tail of a helicopter. I would have other testers comment on how much they liked my bugs, because I was one of those guys who would be able to reproduce those bugs that stumped everyone else, but when it came to the end of the project, the guy next to me had more bugs, so I was laid-off and he was not."
If being laid off isn't bad enough, finding continued employment is also difficult. "Everyone tries to advance to positions that aren't available and won't get," says Phil. While this may also be true for other careers within the games industry, he believes this problem is compounded because testers are often hired through a staffing company and not internally. Many publishers won't offer a reference because of contractor policies. Most testers are not, technically, employees.
Reuben explains, "The majority of people will come in, give up their outside lives for six months to a year, and then be let go. It's disheartening to see so many people you've spent so much time with be laid off like that."
While being laid off can be a part of any career, he adds that the process is cold. "The way [my employer] used to handle these things was to send out meeting notices. You would go to a meeting, and someone would walk into the QA area where everyone who didn't have the meeting request were still sitting and simply say, 'If you're here, you've been let go, pack up your stuff, we're escorting you out'...you always hoped that you would be one of the few that would be kept on."
No Power to Change
Because playing videogames all day as a career has been heavily glamorized, companies are never at a loss for willing recruits. "Everyone in QA is expendable," says Frank. Reuben adds, "If management doesn't like someone, they just refuse to renew their contract, thus avoiding any hassle at all. This leads to people who start asking questions about workload and length to be branded as trouble makers and their contracts are simply not extended."
Forming a union at the tester level is next to impossible Frank says, "Once the product ships, you're out of a job. There are no benefits, no perks and definitely no promise of being hired full time. There have been so many talented people I have worked with and it's a shame to see that talent getting wasted." While some organizations offer job protection, "there is no union for QA contractors" he adds.
Could testers form a union? While it is theoretically possible, Reuben believes it isn't realistic. "Forming a union at the tester level is next to impossible due to how contracts are handled. If you try, you'll find your contract not being extended. The part that really hurts is that the industry is so small that if for some reason you are let go, most companies in your area know about it and won't hire you."
Facing the Blame
Even after passing through QA, it's still commonplace for today's videogames to have bugs both small and game-breaking. Take the PlayStation 3 version of Bethesda's Skyrim. If QA testers work as fervently as they claim, how can such technical travesties slip through the cracks?
The truth, according to Phil, is that "many reported bugs don't get fixed." Furthermore, developers often ignore the advice of QA testers. Frank says, "They shot our opinions down without even a slight bit of consideration. They waste money and resources" before faulty projects are canned.
The company blames us for all the bugs that make it into the final product. "Sometimes game companies have to pick and choose their battles and decide what bugs must be fixed," says Trent. "The thing about QA testing is that not everyone games the same. There are millions of combinations of things a gamer could do that a team of 100 or less won't find and it ends up in the final product." This, combined with some bugs not being repeatable, explains why catastrophic glitches are able to seep through. "There were plenty of times you would find a bug, but if you can't write up a detailed way to reproduce the bug, you can't count it, even if it's game breaking...You must be able to make it always happen or happen often enough for it to be reported."
Even when developers listen to the QA team, issues can still arise. Trent adds, "Sometimes the developers swear they fixed something, but the next build of the game breaks something else that wasn't an issue or sometimes their fix doesn't solve the problem."
Though many of these glitches may not be the fault of QA testers, Saul, who declined to name the company he worked for, stated. "The company blames us for all the bugs that make it into the final product." Pete notes that "Producers don't listen to QA anymore....but if a bug shows up when the game goes live or gold, that's QA's fault, even if QA previously reported it as an issue."
To avoid delays, Sam says publishers "bully" their QA testers to "get projects to retail on expected time tables, meaning excessively long hours." He described one employer as "very totalitarian" in the way it treated QA staff. Among the testers who contacted IGN, this was a common complaint about a variety of publishers.
Conclusion
While the popular view of the game tester living an easy life is a misconception, there are alternatives to the over-worked, mistake-prone model that testers have reached out to talk about. Companies like Valve and Blizzard are famed for taking their time finishing games and eradicating bugs although, for different reasons, this is not always a luxury available to companies squeezed by stock-holder expectations. Other companies are opening up their games to the public via crowd-sourced beta programs, which creates a whole new set of issues.
History has demonstrated that when QA testers are a more integral part of the development cycle, game companies end up with a better product, greater sales, and most importantly, perhaps create more humane working conditions as a result.
IGN would like to thank all the QA testers who spoke to us. Let us know your thoughts in the Comments section.
92 hours a week...
WTF.
That's over 13 hours a day. |
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| Roflhaxx Norway. March 31 2012 01:07. Posts 1011 | Profile # |
On March 31 2012 01:02 haegN wrote: I wonder why you put "force". I see no forcing of any kind, these people are working there voluntarily! I agree that this isnt the best way to treat your employees, but if they dont like it, they can just change jobs.
Its not "just change jobs" these days with the unemployment rate rising it's even worse, and these people who do genuine work gets treated even worse than people who work illegally here. (without work permit) |
| | A game where the first thing you do is scout with a “worker”. Does that make any sense? Who scouts with a “worker”? That’s like sending out the janitor to perform recon, what general would do that? Retarded game. |
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| klo8 Austria. March 31 2012 01:16. Posts 831 | Profile # |
On March 31 2012 00:36 Equity213 wrote: Its called supply and demand. If you dont like your job, quit. Theres tons of other people who would like to have it. You would have played video games all day anyways. I dont get the outrage.
This here is bullshit. QA testing is nothing like "playing video games all day". You play certain sections of a game over and over and over to find bugs, you try purposefully to break the game to expose bad design and that's it. No "oh, I'm just gonna run around in Skyrim all day weeeee!". |
| | This post is clearly not a hurr, as you can see from the graph, the durr never intersects with the derp. |
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| Nevermind86 Somalia. March 31 2012 01:20. Posts 410 | Profile # |
On March 31 2012 00:14 Spidinko wrote: Quit and get a better job. Why are you punishing people that have nothing to do with it? That's a terrorist thinking.
More and more in this forum and over other forums I see the word terrorist thrown in so many situations, it's very scary... the fact that people accept it more and more, government and media propaganda are changing the language making an enemy of every possible person to justify whatever actions, the light use of the word is proof that it's getting implanted in our minds. It's totally offtopic but in my country Venezuela, in our history terrorist acts were in the legislation after the late 50's but not a single case was considered a terrorist act until recently, in the last few years a few acts have been labeled terrorism which carry a 30 year sentence, which is like 7 times more the punition that what would normally be if it wasn't labeled as terrorism... "Punishing people... that have nothing to do with it?... "a terrorist's thinking...", sounds like a quote from 1984.Last edit: 2012-03-31 01:26:58 |
| | Interviewer: Many people hate you and would like to see you dead. How does that make you feel? Trevor Goodchild: Those people should get to know me a little better. Then they'd know I don't indulge in feelings. |
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| Holytornados United States. March 31 2012 01:28. Posts 625 | Profile # |
Even if labor officials were to be contacted, a lot of state's are what is called "right-to-work" states.
This basically means that they can be fired for any or no reason at all, without question. The state I live in is one such state.
Even if you contacted anyone about possible labor violations, you could be let go/have your contract not renewed for speaking out. I'm sure there will be someone to replace you in a short amount of time. |
| | I need your love like a boy needs his mother's side. |
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| TheAngryZergling United States. March 31 2012 01:30. Posts 335 | Profile # |
The knowledge that games testers have some of the worst working conditions amongst jobs in first world countries has been known for well over a decade. Just a quick look into the career when I was 15 or so made that obvious. So I have zero sympathy for people who put themselves in that position. Its a shitty job that stupid people continue to flock to. I would think eventually the public perception would catch up to the reality, the applicant pool will shrink, and those remaining in the field will start getting at least a few of the working condition improvements they deserve.
Also, virtually ALL software complex enough to have commercial value is going to have bugs. No matter how many smart, talented coders and testers are thrown at the project.
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| | Everything in life is most clearly explained through a Starcraft analogy. |
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| TheToast United States. March 31 2012 01:31. Posts 4804 | Profile Blog # |
On March 31 2012 01:28 Holytornados wrote: Even if labor officials were to be contacted, a lot of state's are what is called "right-to-work" states.
This basically means that they can be fired for any or no reason at all, without question. The state I live in is one such state.
Even if you contacted anyone about possible labor violations, you could be let go/have your contract not renewed for speaking out. I'm sure there will be someone to replace you in a short amount of time.
No, Right to Work means you can choose not to be a part of a Union. That is, if your work place votes to establish a union you as an individual can choose not to be a member of the union and not have to pay Union dues.
All other Federal and State employment laws still apply. |
| | I like the way the walls go out. Gives you an open feeling. Firefly's a good design. People don't appreciate the substance of things. Objects in space. People miss out on what's solid. | |
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