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[G] PvZ 7-gate Immortal +1/+1

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 All
 
 RemarK   United States. March 31 2012 07:55. Posts 404
Profile Blog # 
Introduction:

Hello all,

I’m RemarK, top masters Protoss on the NA server, this is my first guide – I’ll be teaching you guys a relatively simple PvZ build, the 7-gate, +1/+1 immortal all-in! For lack of a better name, I’ll just refer to it as the Immortal 7-gate.

This build is a 2-base PvZ all-in (very strong timing attack) that I saw Choya do in the GSTL. It’s a neat build – the goal is to build a miniature death ball and attack before the Zerg’s unit production has 100% kicked in. It’s especially strong vs Zergs who try to go straight into mutas on 3 hatches, if you execute properly, you will kill them most of the time!

Infrastructure:
+ Show Spoiler +

The Build:
+ Show Spoiler +

Notes for execution:
+ Show Spoiler +

Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +

About Me:
+ Show Spoiler +
Last edit: 2012-03-31 08:19:45
Thug means never having to say you're sorry | Grandmaster Protoss for Team FXO: www.twitch.tv/tsremark | @FXORemarK
Old Post

 
 VoirDire   Sweden. March 31 2012 08:00. Posts 1774
Profile # 
As a zerg player, I can see this working well.

When does the attack hit approximately? 11 min?
Playing meaningless games are a travesty to competition.
Old Post

 
 RemarK   United States. March 31 2012 08:07. Posts 404
Profile Blog # 

On March 31 2012 08:00 VoirDire wrote:
As a zerg player, I can see this working well.

When does the attack hit approximately? 11 min?


Yup, there's some variance depending on the map / how well I'm executing, but I usually hit between 10:35 and 11:00. By 11:00, you should definitely have 2 immortals, 6+ sentries, and ~20 stalkers (and the warp prism). So about 60~ supply in army.
Thug means never having to say you're sorry | Grandmaster Protoss for Team FXO: www.twitch.tv/tsremark | @FXORemarK
Old Post

 
 TangSC   Canada. March 31 2012 08:14. Posts 1611
Profile Blog # 
Thanks for posting the guide, remark, this is definitely helpful.

It is a really strong all-in but it would be useful if you went into the in-game timings a bit more. If Zerg goes for any type of tech beyond roach/ling with upgrades, it's so difficult to hold. Do you think this has a strong chance of success against a player who masses Roach/Ling or mixes in Hydras?
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
Old Post

 
 Zheryn   Sweden. March 31 2012 08:17. Posts 867
Profile # 
You didn't lose the second game and it's against "RoK".
hundred thousand krouner
Old Post

 
 RemarK   United States. March 31 2012 08:22. Posts 404
Profile Blog # 
@TangSC - sure, I'll try to add some in-game timings more. I'll have to go through the replay and get time-stamps myself, because I always just execute based on feel / resource allocation. Sorry if the build order seemed a little vague on account of that!

In my experience, it seems like lots of speedlings + hydras are the best way to defend this. If the Zerg can hold their 3rd base / trade armies effectively, they've almost always won the game. And versus stalker sentry immortal, hydralisks + speedlings are the most cost-effective composition you can get as Zerg (I think infestors + fungal growth are less reliable vs so many sturdy units). As Zerg, your goal is to make the Protoss run out of energy, if you can last that long and without taking critical damage, you'll overrun him.

@Zheryn - thanks, I accidentally copy pasta'd the wrong link. Updated with proper replay.
Thug means never having to say you're sorry | Grandmaster Protoss for Team FXO: www.twitch.tv/tsremark | @FXORemarK
Old Post

 
 CecilSunkure   United States. March 31 2012 08:23. Posts 2233
Profile Blog # 
Hey I remember playing you on ladder and you asked how to write guides Thanks for taking the time to write this up! Have you considered attacking a minute later with blink and +2? I feel the combination of those two is much more effective than a slightly earlier attack and +1 armor.
http://bit.ly/HJBjgK - Free RTS I dev'd!
Old Post

 
 CCalms   United States. March 31 2012 08:24. Posts 341
Profile # 
I thought you only 10 gated ^^
Old Post

 
 TangSC   Canada. March 31 2012 08:26. Posts 1611
Profile Blog # 

On March 31 2012 08:23 CecilSunkure wrote:
Hey I remember playing you on ladder and you asked how to write guides Thanks for taking the time to write this up! Have you considered attacking a minute later with blink and +2? I feel the combination of those two is much more effective than a slightly earlier attack and +1 armor.

Have to agree, +2 blink all-ins ftw
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
Old Post

 
 Metalteeth   United States. March 31 2012 08:32. Posts 115
Profile # 
Thanks, will have to try this out!
Twitter: @Metalteeth9 GoGo Starcraft!
Old Post

 
 VoirDire   Sweden. March 31 2012 08:33. Posts 1774
Profile # 

On March 31 2012 08:26 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +


Have to agree, +2 blink all-ins ftw

A 2 base 12 minute attack with no initial pressure? Way to late imho. Zergs can very well be maxed at that point.

I think 11 minute is the latest a 2 base all-in should hit. In fact, I think 9-10 min with 3 immortals and +1 attack is stronger.
Playing meaningless games are a travesty to competition.
Old Post

 
 TangSC   Canada. March 31 2012 08:35. Posts 1611
Profile Blog # 

On March 31 2012 08:33 VoirDire wrote:

Show nested quote +


A 2 base 12 minute attack with no initial pressure? Way to late imho. Zergs can very well be maxed at that point.

I think 11 minute is the latest a 2 base all-in should hit. In fact, I think 9-10 min with 3 immortals and +1 attack is stronger.

I also like oGsVINES 7gate blink stalker build
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
Old Post

 
 TheGodneyDog   United States. March 31 2012 09:03. Posts 99
Profile # 
This guys an ISTL stud.
iMpulse eSports Media Manager (www.impulseesports.com) Twitter: iMp_eSports Facebook: www.facebook.com/impulseesports
Old Post

 
 saltymango   United States. March 31 2012 09:12. Posts 120
Profile # 
I've been doing this ever since i saw it in the gstl and it's the most powerful timing attack i've learned so far. harder to hold than +2 blink stalker 7 gate in my opinion, as well as less common.
Old Post

 
 monk   United States. March 31 2012 09:48. Posts 6816
Profile Blog # 

On March 31 2012 08:33 VoirDire wrote:

Show nested quote +


A 2 base 12 minute attack with no initial pressure? Way to late imho. Zergs can very well be maxed at that point.

I think 11 minute is the latest a 2 base all-in should hit. In fact, I think 9-10 min with 3 immortals and +1 attack is stronger.

I have to agree with Voirdire here and disagree with cecil and tang.
  • The earliest you can hit with immortals, +2, and blink is 12minutes. If you hit after 11 minutes without early pressure, any zerg will be free to drone to 60-65 and then mass units to hold this off.
  • Getting blink/+2 also reduces your sentry count and you don't even get that many stalkers to utilize blink.
  • The strength of this build is forcefields + immortals. Blink doesn't synergize well with these 2 other units/abilities. You're relying on forcefields to prevent damage, not blink

I've tried both this build and another version that Sage used vs a TSL zerg in this GSTL and I have to say that I prefer that one much better. The OP shold take a look at that one. The difference between that build and this one are as follows: Sage opens some variation of zealot/stalker/stalker for initial gateway pressure then follows it up with a warp prism for warp prism pressure. He then goes for obs then 3 immortals off of 3 gas and doesn't get +1 armor. I feel it's a better, more lean build, because you put on more pressure earlier and get 3 immortals instead of 2, because you skip the first sentry thus allowing you to build your robo faster. The disadvantage is that you have less sentry energy and don't have +1 armor in your push.

Finally, I think it might be useful if you benchmark all the robo timings: when you drop the robo, when each of the robo units start and come out. When I was working on this build, I found that was very helpful.

Last edit: 2012-03-31 09:48:49
@TL_monk
Old Post

 
 Skyro   United States. March 31 2012 10:05. Posts 1414
Profile # 
-IMO it is worth it to wait to push with 3 Immortals. Think about it this way, 1 Immortals = ~4 Stalkers DPS-wise vs. armored units. With 2 Immortals you are basically increasing your DPS by ~4 Stalkers vs. Roaches if you replaced 4 Stalkers (the cost of 2 Immortals) with those 2 Immortals. Is ~4 Stalkers worth of DPS vs armored worth it vs. Blink and +2 weapons? IMO no.
-Why not make a warp prism first? It allows you to wait do some sentry drop harass. You can mix this up if you are playing the same opponent by sometimes doing just a light sentry harass in their mineral line and other times a more full-blown perma-FF their ramp backed by ~6 gates type of strategy.
-You probably want to mention possible warp prism uses in this strategy. The main advantage of these pushes over a +2 Blink pushes is that you have some harass options available to you mid-game before your push and the options available to you with your prism during your push (i.e. warping in his mineral line while pushing his front, using the warp prism to protect your immortals when they get focus fired, etc.).
Old Post

 
 Mikelius   Germany. March 31 2012 10:14. Posts 498
Profile # 
I'm actually using a similar build, but instead of Immortals I go for Colossi and attack the second I have my second Colo with range, it does come out about a minute later and I sacrifice sentries/gas for more zealots. But yeah, robo timing attack at around that time are very strong.
Less QQ, more PewPew
Old Post

 
 Th1rdEye   United States. March 31 2012 10:16. Posts 809
Profile Blog # 
Watch out for fast infestors from zerg, will shut this down. Most zergs know that hydralisks are a bad option against this due to the FF's/timing and that roach ling is obviously c ountered by immortal FF

ive played many all ins like this on KR ladder, and only thing that works for me is fast infestors and pure fungal/roach ling mass-

note: mass units *can* work, but you have to have great positioning and flanks. the strength of this build is the initial push, that FF's half your units, kills your third, blocks you out of third, etc.

my best advice to zergs trying to hold this off is to scout it in time, and work on spines/infestors.. go light on the roaches, if you mass roach like herp derp zerg does to 12 minute max, you will probably die. you will have no gas left for infestors.

the timing of this build hits later than warp gate pushes and blink all in, so you have plenty of time to go up to 5-6 gasses and full saturation in time. i would not suggest going for a fourth until you see toss go for his third.
Last edit: 2012-03-31 10:20:47
high masters (NA,EU,KR) zerg stream: http://www.twitch.tv/galaxyzerg !
Old Post

 
 Mikelius   Germany. March 31 2012 10:18. Posts 498
Profile # 

On March 31 2012 09:48 NrGmonk wrote:

Show nested quote +


I have to agree with Voirdire here and disagree with cecil and tang.
  • The earliest you can hit with immortals, +2, and blink is 12minutes. If you hit after 11 minutes without early pressure, any zerg will be free to drone to 60-65 and then mass units to hold this off.
  • Getting blink/+2 also reduces your sentry count and you don't even get that many stalkers to utilize blink.
  • The strength of this build is forcefields + immortals. Blink doesn't synergize well with these 2 other units/abilities. You're relying on forcefields to prevent damage, not blink

I've tried both this build and another version that Sage used vs a TSL zerg in this GSTL and I have to say that I prefer that one much better. The OP shold take a look at that one. The difference between that build and this one are as follows: Sage opens some variation of zealot/stalker/stalker for initial gateway pressure then follows it up with a warp prism for warp prism pressure. He then goes for obs then 3 immortals off of 3 gas and doesn't get +1 armor. I feel it's a better, more lean build, because you put on more pressure earlier and get 3 immortals instead of 2, because you skip the first sentry thus allowing you to build your robo faster. The disadvantage is that you have less sentry energy and don't have +1 armor in your push.

Finally, I think it might be useful if you benchmark all the robo timings: when you drop the robo, when each of the robo units start and come out. When I was working on this build, I found that was very helpful.




Would a 4 gate +1 7(ish) zealot pressure work well with this build? As in get the Robo as you pressure with Zealots to force units/roaches and then transition into chronoing Immortals?
Less QQ, more PewPew
Old Post

 
 RemarK   United States. March 31 2012 11:53. Posts 404
Profile Blog # 
@Cecil - thanks for the feedback. In general with timing attacks vs Zerg, I feel like the sooner they hit the better. Blink and +2 timing attacks are really strong, but I would probably either scratch the immortals or throw a pressure into my strategy if I wanted to hit that timing. I find 4-gate zealot pressure while teching to robo + twilight is a good way to gear up for a 7-gate, +2 blink stalker immortal all-in.

@VoirDire - I'll try that out on the ladder and see if it seems stronger. I'll post in here once I have.

@Skyro - that's a pretty good point. I think getting the warp prism first would definitely be a smarter allocation of resources. I just copied the build based on what Choya did in the GSTL, but the flexibility of warp prism harass would increase the strength of the build a lot.

@Mikelius - I don't think +1 zealot pressure is ideal with this build, if you were gonna do that, might as well just do HerO's Pvz opener exactly and go into both robo and twilight to get blink, +2, and 2-3 immortals for an all-in. But as skyro mentioned, it would be good to get warp prism first and then you can harass with that
Thug means never having to say you're sorry | Grandmaster Protoss for Team FXO: www.twitch.tv/tsremark | @FXORemarK
Old Post

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