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| Gl!tch United States. April 01 2012 09:23. Posts 573 | Profile # |
As a disclaimer, this is my first guide ever posted. I'm open to any feedback on the post if you feel I didn't cover everything.
How I stumbled into this build:
+ Show Spoiler +At first I just wanted to try teching to HT's before Collosus tech. At first it was a one base all-in. I ran into quite a few roadblocks, getting crushed by simple 2rax pressure while I tech'd too fast.
I went back to more standard play, 1gate FE into 3gate w/robo. Here is when I decided I could 1gate FE, hold off some pressure, and instead of robo tech go into a 5/6gate timing with psi storm.
The build:
The build has two variations, and while each of those variations can play out a few ways, they still serve as a general guideline. Which variation I use depends on what I scout.
Against a Terran who goes 1rax FE:
+ Show Spoiler +9 pylon 12 gate 14 gas 16 pylon *first 3 chrono's on probes, then alternated between WG and probes17 cyber (keep eye on scout probe, seeing no gas here probably means 1rax FE)19/20 zealot ~ 22 stalker ~ 24/25 (4:30) Expand (will stop probes @ ~20 before this) build 3rd pylon @ natural - resume probes then 2 gates when affordable. - sentry (optional, but should do if pressure is likely) - When natural finished, rally probes (leave 2per mineral @main and 3per gas) to natural - Build 1 gas when natural finishes. Immediatly fill w/probes ~32 food WG & 2 gates finish, build 2 zealots out of the gates ~32 Twilight Council (when finished immediatly start Templar Archives) Continue building probes and a few zealots when affordable (4th gas)~ 60 food Templar archives finished, Start psi storm, all gas goes to HT's, minerals go to 2 additional gateways making 5 total. Continue probes after gates are building. The attack should come from 10-11 minutes (game time). Depending on how early you put up the 4th gas, you should have 4HT's and an archon, possibly a 2nd archon (but at least 4HT's and an archon). Build the 2HT's for the archon at a proxy pylon as your army moves out. Here's a screenshot of the army during the attack after this build: (while the picture may not show it, you can take a third during the attack, as I should have with my 800 minerals banked lol) + Show Spoiler +
Replays of this variation of the build:
+ Show Spoiler +
Even though its pretty standard, those annoying Terrans don't always 1rax FE.
Against a Terran with 2rax pressure:
+ Show Spoiler +9 pylon
12 gate
14 gas
16 pylon (w/this variation you want to gas steal after scouting one gas, delays possible 1-1-1 or banshee)
*first 3 chrono's on probes, then alternated between WG and probes
16 cyber (keep eye on scout probe, seeing no gas here probably means 1rax FE)
19/20 zealot
~ 22 stalker
~ 25 2nd and 3rd gate
~ 28 sentry (required as opposed to the one in the other build)
~ 30 (5:30) Expand
- WG finishes, build 2 zealots and a stalker (2rax will hit around here)
- Expo finishes, 1 gas and Twilight Council
~ TC finishes, build robo and Templar Archives (can afford because of extra gas from waiting longer)
- Get obs from robo, but otherwise all gas goes to HT's and Psi-Storm research when Templar Archives finishes.
- Put minerals into 3 additional gateways and zealots.
Again attack when you have 4 HT's and an archon. The difference is that here you should have 6gateways and a robo, a more sizeable zealot force, and more probes. Also this variation tends to come more around the 12 minute mark (again, game time.) You can squeeze in a Warp Prism just before attacking for a warp in of zealots while you storm the natural (no pun intended). With this variation you definetly will have money for a third base while you attack. (I will get a screenshot of army soon after I post, forgot silly me)
Replays of variation against 2rax (***)
+ Show Spoiler + http://drop.sc/149529 (This is the closest to the BO) http://drop.sc/149530http://drop.sc/149531*** The second replay is actualy a 3gate expo against a 4rax that I suspected to be a 2 rax, I barely defend and get delayed in the build a bit, but with the extra gas mining time I get charge as well.
*** The third replay I did not scout the 2rax, and did the 1gate expo variation. I managed to hold it off anyway and continue with the build.
Transitioning:
+ Show Spoiler +If the attack doesnt crush their natural, and it doesn't always, then a third should be taken. Preferably you take a third during the attack, along with teching to robo (If you hadn't already) and getting double forge for upgrades. I often transition to Collosus archon chargelot lategame (I think there is one or two of the replays that go into a longer macro game)
Ty for reading, hope some people try my build. As an afterthought, this build has worked up to low-mid masters range. Heres my profile: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1611582/1/Glitch/Last edit: 2012-04-01 09:25:36 |
| | “I mean, they say you die twice. One time when you stop breathing and a second time, a bit later on, when somebody says your name for the last time.” ― Banksy |
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| johnnywup United States. April 01 2012 09:31. Posts 2743 | Profile Blog # |
| Anything above lowmasters they'll just exploit your lack of units and kill you. It's way too risky imo. Not to mention if they have bunkers you pretty much lose. |
| | Infinity Seven #1 Favorite Team~ | Startale #2 favorite~ |
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| Gl!tch United States. April 01 2012 09:35. Posts 573 | Profile # |
| While I wouldn't know about what goes on in high masters, I have run into people with 3+ bunkers. In one of the replays I attack into it, fail, and it just goes into a macro game that I won. However since then If I see 3+ bunkers I just pull back and take a third. Any push they go with at that point is held off with psi storms. |
| | “I mean, they say you die twice. One time when you stop breathing and a second time, a bit later on, when somebody says your name for the last time.” ― Banksy |
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| EmilA Denmark. April 01 2012 09:51. Posts 2737 | Profile # |
| What advantages does this have over chargelot archon |
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| oOOoOphidian United States. April 01 2012 09:56. Posts 1235 | Profile # |
| This doesn't hit before common medivac timings (as most timings in the matchup are intended to hit), so how do you deal with a likely base trade scenario without charge and with all your units out of position? |
| | http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian |
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| -Exalt- United States. April 01 2012 10:03. Posts 966 | Profile Blog # |
tried this on the KR server (low master on KR = high/mid master on NA) and it failed miserably vs a terran with good micro. he went for a 1 rax marauder expand into 3 rax, scouted I was going for such fast tech and no robo while expanding and just rallied nonstop stim units, as you simply can not defend it.
3 gates, no robo for immortals, no sentries, teching to storm = dead vs any good terran. i even got up to 5 gates during the aggression and still couldnt defend it cause you dont get enough sentries early on to defend any decent'y micro'd stim aggression. |
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| Zaxdrique United States. April 01 2012 10:05. Posts 15 | Profile # |
| There is also the possibility that terran goes cloaked banshee and destroy you because you have no observer. |
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| oOOoOphidian United States. April 01 2012 10:10. Posts 1235 | Profile # |
On April 01 2012 10:05 Zaxdrique wrote:
There is also the possibility that terran goes cloaked banshee and destroy you because you have no observer.
While that's a risk, I think in general this build would be best used if you don't scout indications of 1/1/1. |
| | http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian |
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| Artline April 01 2012 10:36. Posts 171 | Profile # |
On April 01 2012 10:10 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 10:05 Zaxdrique wrote:
There is also the possibility that terran goes cloaked banshee and destroy you because you have no observer.
While that's a risk, I think in general this build would be best used if you don't scout indications of 1/1/1.
Will it work if Terran expands and then techs to banshees? |
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| Gl!tch United States. April 01 2012 10:51. Posts 573 | Profile # |
| I've never actually come across a Terran who expanded and then went cloak banshee, its only ever come up in the 1-1-1, which I would definetly not use this build against if I scouted it. |
| | “I mean, they say you die twice. One time when you stop breathing and a second time, a bit later on, when somebody says your name for the last time.” ― Banksy |
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| bertu Brazil. April 01 2012 11:35. Posts 584 | Profile # |
On April 01 2012 10:36 Artline wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 10:10 oOOoOphidian wrote:
On April 01 2012 10:05 Zaxdrique wrote:
There is also the possibility that terran goes cloaked banshee and destroy you because you have no observer.
While that's a risk, I think in general this build would be best used if you don't scout indications of 1/1/1.
Will it work if Terran expands and then techs to banshees?
You could incorporate indirect scouting techniques to assess the chances that he teched to banshees after expand.
I`ve been following the one iamke55`s PvT guide: a 7:30 poke, where you look for his marine count, bunker count or maybe marauders:
On February 15 2012 16:06 iamke55 wrote: Walk into the ramp, but don’t use guardian shield or force fields yet! What you see will influence the rest of the build. - 1 or 2 bunkers, 8 marines or fewer: this is likely cloaked banshees followed by either the 2 base “1/1/1” with banshee/tank, or Sage/jjakji’s banshee thor build. Make a robo ASAP and try to do as much damage as you can with your units. Meanwhile at home, switch your strategy to whatever you do against the 2 base 1/1/1.
- There are already 3 bunkers: this is probably the fast 3 orbital build. You can continue with step 4, or if you’re super paranoid you can get detection. This is a bit tricky because fast cloaked banshees don’t actually have enough marines to fill all 3 bunkers yet so they usually stick with 2. If you do see marauder shots this early in the game with 3 bunkers, you can just build a nexus and a twilight council immediately.
- Mass marines with no marauder, or you got attacked by mass marines before you poked: this is gasless FE into 4 or 5 rax marine pressure. I haven’t seen this enough to know exactly what to do, but what’s worked for me so far is to just continue on with step 4 because zealots under a guardian shield will always trade effectively against un-upgraded marines. You might be able to just add 3 more gates and all-in because the stim research is so late, but I haven’t tried that yet.
- Marauder: this is most likely the standard build (3 rax then starport). This is your cue to continue with step 4.
This is a scouting poke only. You should not try to do damage yet unless you see something like 1 bunker with only a few units around it.
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| Grobyc Canada. April 01 2012 11:51. Posts 16966 | Profile Blog # |
Even you scout at 7:30 and it takes 105 seconds to get an observer out (65s for robotics, 40 for obs) you aren't going to have an obs out until 9:00ish. Doesn't a banshee get out at like 7:00-7:15 if you expo -> banshee? Cloak probably at 8:00-8:30. You're still going to suffer enough losses to put you behind even if you react asap I would think. Of course there isn't too big a chance of them doing that, but it's still a risk. You could also think he's doing banshee, drop the build and get a robo, and find out he's done something else as well.
I still think this can have success, but if you get scanned and he anticipates the attack, he can comfortably take a 3rd in base with another bunker or two and split units. It seems a little bit gimmicky, even if it can work. I wouldn't make this my go-to build, although it might be worth mixing in every now and then.Last edit: 2012-04-01 11:52:56 |
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| bertu Brazil. April 01 2012 12:07. Posts 584 | Profile # |
On April 01 2012 11:51 Grobyc wrote:
Even you scout at 7:30 and it takes 105 seconds to get an observer out (65s for robotics, 40 for obs) you aren't going to have an obs out until 9:00ish. Doesn't a banshee get out at like 7:00-7:15 if you expo -> banshee? Cloak probably at 8:00-8:30. You're still going to suffer enough losses to put you behind even if you react asap I would think. Of course there isn't too big a chance of them doing that, but it's still a risk. You could also think he's doing banshee, drop the build and get a robo, and find out he's done something else as well.
Cloak would be ready at 8:45 according to this (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202400). In this scenario, Protoss can go ahead pushing with the 7:30 poke and hopefully do same damage to equalize what the Banshee will cause in the counter. Observer is less than 40s build time, with Chronos.
But I agree that it is unreliable scouting and Protoss would likely be behind, but at least it is not a straight loss. I can`t see other ways to scout for cloaked Banshees without ruining the build. If Protoss wants to be safer, there are better builds than a psi-storm agressive timing. : PLast edit: 2012-04-01 12:08:41 |
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| oOOoOphidian United States. April 01 2012 12:18. Posts 1235 | Profile # |
On April 01 2012 10:36 Artline wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 10:10 oOOoOphidian wrote:
On April 01 2012 10:05 Zaxdrique wrote:
There is also the possibility that terran goes cloaked banshee and destroy you because you have no observer.
While that's a risk, I think in general this build would be best used if you don't scout indications of 1/1/1.
Will it work if Terran expands and then techs to banshees?
You should be okay with HT for feedback and if you see it coming you can go robo or cannons. I think cannons are a better choice for this kind of build, but I guess either could work out. |
| | http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian |
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| KING CHARLIE :D United States. April 01 2012 12:43. Posts 423 | Profile Blog # |
| I think this is a really strong build and a well written guide! =D |
| | NO TEAM WILL EVER BE AS GOOD AS TEAM LIQUID! |
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| RemarK United States. April 01 2012 13:27. Posts 404 | Profile Blog # |
| Good work on the guide - I'm a top masters Protoss and I have a similar style build that I use. There's inherent risks with skipping robo tech vs Terran but it can lead to a very strong mid-game. I think as you get mechanically you'll figure out some improvements you can make - I can afford charge and 6-gates without cutting probes and still having storm done by the 10-11 min mark |
| | Thug means never having to say you're sorry | Grandmaster Protoss for Team FXO: www.twitch.tv/tsremark | @FXORemarK |
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 Dhalphir Australia. April 01 2012 13:39. Posts 1305 | Profile Blog # |
Its just not worth going storm for offensive purposes. It is much harder to attack into a Terran with storms and do well than it is to play greedy and let him attack you.
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| | Supporting TypeII Gaming - www.typeii.net - TypeReaL, TypePhoeNix, TypeSuN, TypeDBS!! |
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| KawaiiRice United States. April 01 2012 13:41. Posts 2807 | Profile Blog # |
| you can go storm 3rd and still have the potential to outright win if ff + storms land .. no real need to go storm allin imo, that's so coinflippy ... everything gambles on the storm landing anyway ++; |
| | っ( ≧▽≦)/ Playing T and Z~ \(≧ω≦ ) || @MYiKawaiiRice |
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| Josh_rakoons United Kingdom. April 01 2012 13:42. Posts 1157 | Profile # |
Storm is just not a worthy investment until you have your third. It is better to sink that gas into a robotics facility, 1 / 2 obs, and blink, in addition to charge.
Also storms are quite bad in the mid game offensively because of bunkers.... to be aggressive in the mid game you really need colossus IMO.Last edit: 2012-04-01 13:43:26 |
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| kyllinghest Norway. April 01 2012 18:21. Posts 1098 | Profile # |
Hmm, would be interesting to see more of builds like these versus zerg. If you shut down scouting this could potentially be pretty good versus both infestor builds and muta builds, no?
Versus Terran Im way more fond of defensive storming, makes it incredibly hard for the terran to be any way near costefficient when he attempts to harass and such! |
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