PvZ, what the heck is up...

Hihi,

I need your help guys. I am a diamond level Protoss, and for ages, I haven't won a fucking single PvZ on the ladder. In customs, I manage to beat mid-master Zergs, but today, every 2nd match was a PvZ, I lost all of them.
Yes, this line is true. ALL of them.

I just sit here, in a mix of rage, anger and sadness.
I just cant figure out what I am doing wrong.
What I am trying to do is going FFE into 5-6 gate robo into defending a third, but that just seems impossible...

I got some replays from today, including several cheeses from zergs, which I can't stop neither (proxy hatch), or I have no clue how to scout them (Roach busts)...

http://drop.sc/149548 + Show Spoiler +
http://drop.sc/149552 + Show Spoiler +
http://drop.sc/149551 + Show Spoiler +

You are my last hope guys :/

Last edit: 2012-04-01 10:24:50

gogo Naniwa :D

Berailfor April 01 2012 10:15. Posts 423

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You really might want to edit in some of your own analysis on each of the replays. That is in the forum guidelines and this could be closed without doing that. Ya can't expect other people to watch and analyze your replays if you don't do it yourself right?

As for scouting allins, first thing, if you see a gas opening against a FFE something is already fishy. So make sure you get your scout probe in a hidden spot (or send another probe out if you have to as some Zergs are really diligent about finding your worker if it goes missing.) to come back and see if he is still mining gas after 100 (you can click the geyser to see the amount.) if he did. He isn't doing a speedling expand so prepare adequately.

brain_storm Sweden. April 01 2012 10:27. Posts 24

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From what I saw on the replays your scouting needs improvement, but considering you wrote that you have no clue to how to scout cheeses my best advice would be first off to try scouting with your first zealot and even stalker(if you have one) and if you get denied just assume he is doing something fishy if you haven't been able to scout a third base. Throw a couple of cannons up and just start to tech.

Also from what you're saying I think that what you're dealing with here is a common slump. Everyone has had one of those bad weeks or even months where every game seems bad and from my own experience(mid-master toss) what helped me was to just keep fighting and watching lots of pro replays. Eventually I got a great understanding of the MU.

Last edit: 2012-04-01 10:29:59

Watercrystal April 01 2012 10:31. Posts 55

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On April 01 2012 10:27 brain_storm wrote:
Also from what you're saying I think that what you're dealing with here is a common slump. Everyone has had one of those bad weeks or even months where every game seems bad and from my own experience(mid-master toss) what helped me was to just keep fighting and watching lots of pro replays. Eventually I got a great understanding of the MU.

About a half year now

So what would you suggest to scout? Probe scouts? Zealot attacks? Could you explain me what you are doing, that would be very nice from you

gogo Naniwa :D

brain_storm Sweden. April 01 2012 11:48. Posts 24

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On April 01 2012 10:31 Watercrystal wrote:

Show nested quote +

About a half year now

So what would you suggest to scout? Probe scouts? Zealot attacks? Could you explain me what you are doing, that would be very nice from you

half a year.. now that's tough but don't quit!

yes well early game the most obvious signs of cheese (or at least early attacks) will be the gas. Always scout if he has gas and if he has it doesn't necessary mean it is cheese but it DOES mean he will delay his third at least a little bit for the zergling speed. Your probe doesn't have to do anything except scout or maybe put a pylon to delay the hatch if you prefer. But after that you have to go hide your probe in the darkest of holes around the map. It can be far away.. doesn't matter as long as it's out of your base and not getting killed.

Around 4.50 or 5 mins send it in their main or at their third, and look for roach warren or how many workers he has at his natural and if something smells fishy throw down two or more cannons and wait.

As for the proxy hatch keep an eye on when he throws down the pool and natural base. If it looks late scout for his drone around your base and if you see it put down a pylon and two cannons and then make units as fast as you can.

Hope this helps

bertu Brazil. April 01 2012 13:09. Posts 580

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On April 01 2012 10:07 Watercrystal wrote:

Show nested quote +

You are my last hope guys :/

I watched the replays:
+ Show Spoiler +

First tip would be work on a better opening (either pressure a lot faster with zealots, or go stargate, or build more sentries to expand faster). Try to avoid that full wall-off, its a waste. When trying to secure your third, you can leave back a sentry, a zealot on hold position and maybe build another cannon at the natural. Then get on habit of spliting your army (that sentry will give you time to figure out the size of the army trying to take your natural).

Scouting for all-ins after a FFE is tricky and you won`t always get it right, but with practice it can be reliable. I learned a lot watching col.rsvp stream (sadly, he hasn`t been streaming any more).

In general, you should work on getting the initial probe alive longer to scout for faster thirds or at least if he didn`t cancel his natural. Scout again with the probe that builds the cyber core. If you still can`t get useful info, chrone the first two zealots and walk to his third, while sending a probe to natural.

You should have a "anti-cheese"check list. It goes like: if you can`t confirm a natural before 3:30, build cannons and try to scout it again. If you see early gas, build a second cannon and get a probe ready to make a full wall at the main-to-natural ramp against a runby. If you saw a natural but not a third with your chrono`d zealots, get the watch towers (to watch for roaches) and prepare against two-base tech play (you need a fast robo to actually know which tech). If your zealots see roaches coming, build cannons + stalkers. And always have vision inside your base. This will help in like 90% of the time you are getting cheesed, until observer comes out.

If you see speedling expand, scouting is harder, so you have to send multiple probes early, build a blind second cannon with at least one sentry ASAP, and a faster robo.

Overall, you are doing a lot of things right, you just need to work on a few things to be back on a winning track again. : )

Last edit: 2012-04-01 13:11:53

Garoodah United States. April 01 2012 16:56. Posts 54

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I haven't watched your replays yet but I thought id offer some insight on my ZvP (high plat zerg player). The biggest thing to watch for early on is gas. Generally if a zerg sees a FFE he will try to take a quick 3rd for maxing on roach into broodlord/infestor, or 2 base roach "all-in". Normally I start early gas production for ling speed to do some aggressive scouting and potentially kill some probes. The only other option is to start a fast lair, which is a clear indication of roach pressure/all-ins. The only way I can do this is to delay my 3rd for a long time. If you dont see a 3rd going down try to get an observe out asap.

2 base roach all-ins go straight for burrow+burrow movement to abuse you skipping on your tech tree. If you cant get the obs out fast enough try having 2-3 well placed cannons at your natural for sight and having an adequate amount of stalkers out with a sentry or 2. Depending on the map and ramp size you can really delay the roaches for another warp in cycle or two, and at that point youll be more than set for handling them.

If you do scout a 3rd going down very early (under 5-6minutes depending on how much you pressured him early on) you will have a fair amount of time to tech up and build an army before you see any kind of aggression. For something like this the zerg will probably max right around 12:00-13:00 and will have no problem steamrolling through your 3rd unless you set him behind.

Even small pressure like 4-7 stalkers at a 3rd or natural can really set a zerg player back because he has to spend larva on units instead of droning up like he wants. If you ever scout the 3rd put pressure on it, force him to make spine/spore crawlers. Also hit his gas geysers. Any early roach pressure will need at least 4 geysers(sometimes 6) actively getting gas to be maxed in time. I tend to have 6 in order to transition to infestor/broodlord asap and my 4th starting around the time i start making roaches ~8:30-9:00.

One last thought, when in doubt, just add an extra cannon or 2 for defense, especially if you cant tell what the zerg is up to or feel like really early pressure is coming to your natural. 2 cannons and 1 sentry can easily hold off a speedling expand until more zealots are out.

Youll get back to winning in no time, and dont be afraid to lose more either or try something different like warp prism harass while you get your 3rd up.

Hopefully this helps a bit! :D

"Oh man we've got GG-lords"

Drowsy United States. April 01 2012 17:42. Posts 4824

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I think Don'tgiveup pretty much covered it as far as game by game breakdown and better pvz scouting.

I think your build badly needs to be optimized. The way Socke does the fast robo fast third build is this:
Build zealot+3sentries from your first gateway.
5:00 core
6:00 robotics
6:40 double gas at nat
As soon as you begin building your first immortal add in 3 gates
Spend all chronos on probes/robotics, don't put it on WG like normal
8:30 send probe to 3rd and begin nexus, cut probes briefly (you should have exactly 52 while you're building your 3rd+wall) until you have a full walloff built at your 3rd and a cannon contstructing. On cloud you can do it on the ramp with 3 gates+2 pylons and he'll only have 1 entrance into your 3rd which you can easily cover with ffs.
Go up to about ~8-10 sentries, 3 immortals, and begin stalker production.
~10:30 robo bay+twilight
From here you'll need to make a few decisions about tech path based on what your obs sees.

I would avoid using this playstyle on some maps. On entombed close positions you're way better off doing a 2 base timing (look at the +1/+1 triple immortal 7 gate thread, the opening build for this allin as well as the fast robo fast 3rd are really similar and don't diverge until 8:30. On Korhal its pretty much impossible to keep a 3rd pvz and you should always 2 base. Overall this is a much more advanced way to play pvz and you'll experience a lot more tricky situations with mothership vs broodlords+infestor and you'll plainly have a higher win % if you do something like +1/+1 triple immortal 7 gate because your mechanics and game sense are still in infancy. But fast 3rd you'll probably improve more.

Last edit: 2012-04-01 17:50:04

Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us.

chestnutcc India. April 01 2012 17:49. Posts 429

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Watching the replays, will edit as I finish each one:

Shakura's Game: Your chronoboost is too high too early on. This makes an enormous difference in the matchup. You want to be constantly chronoboosting probes at least until warp gates are done. In this game, your opponent made an uncharacteristically large number of zerglings early on, so his drone count was not as high as it could have been, but it still dwarfed your probe count.

You are extremely paranoid in the match up and it shows. Despite opening with a robo first and having obs over his main, you play extremely scared, sitting in your natural with your stalkers and immortals until well past the 10 min mark, when roach speed is done, and the zerg is doing nothing but pumping units. Your warp prism harass is also extremely delayed. Throughout the game you had no vision of the map and no idea what the zerg was doing. This is clear in the end where you attack into infestors and a spine wall when you could have clearly walked around them, a fact you would have known if you had taken the towers.

Bad unit composition. You have 1 sentry for the most part of that game. Against mass roach ling you will straight up die without sentries. Also no higher tech or upgrades. You did not have blink or colossi.

Your third must be taken much earlier than when you attempted to take it, simply because that is the time the zerg begins shooting up in supply.

Smaller nitty gritty: The double gate you built to wall yourself in should have been cancelled, since he couldn't really make it past your cannon. The extra minerals you spent on 3 largely ineffectual zealots should have gone to probes. However, your opponent's zergling over reaction may have been the result of scouting this, so that might not have been a bad idea.

Cloud Kingdom: Same mistakes as above, the most important one is the chronoboost thing.

I must take stronger objection to your double gateway approach than in the previous game. I'm not sure whether its part of your build or you do it because you're worried about an early run by, but walling yourself in is psychologically bad for you in this match up. It heightens your nervousness at the prospect of run by's and busts. Secondly, you can't get a probe or anything out till you kill one of your gates. Thirdly, it delays your cy core and all tech. In this game it was disastrous for you since you never plugged the gap after killing the gate. A zealot wall off with an additional gate is strongly recommended. You were killed by constant runbys and you didn't move to rectify the fault.

Your tech was faster this time, but you had only a single colossus. Again, v low early sentry count. Basically no upgrades. Use the robo and litter the map with observers.

Antiga Game: Proxy hatch is just a silly thing, like a cannon rush, sometimes you don't scout it and lose, no big deal. You scouted the lack of an expo but also need to run into the main with your probe to see what he was trying. Try to keep an eye out for when the drone enters your base. If you don't remember it leaving, scout around. Ideally the drone should be harassing your probes at the natural.

My two cents on scouting: Pylon block the zerg's natural without exception, then run to his third and delay the drone should it move there for as long as you can. This should force 2-4 lings.Do not pylon block the third, you should eventually let him plant the hatch in your face. This will have reduced the chances of an all in substantially. Now run away with your probe and hide it somewhere on the map. Around 5-5:30, run the probe into the natural and confirm that it is there. You can outrun lings at this point since they usually skip speed. Another way to do this is to get out a zealot or two and rally them into his natural. Clear out his lings from in front of your natural and third while doing this.

If you see a speed first build, be paranoid. Scout around your main, use chrono'd zealots to scout aggressively. If you can, run a probe into his main and check the amount of gas he's mined. If he hasn't stopped mining gas, go berserk with cannons. An important thing to do when facing an early all in is to pull probes off gas and put them to mining minerals.

Last edit: 2012-04-01 18:12:30

Iatrik Germany. April 01 2012 17:58. Posts 159

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You don't pressure the zerg at all.
I'm a high Diamond Player myself and face the same Kind of Problem.

The Problem you have: You are way too passive.
Keep the Zerg on a low amount of bases.
Zergs only get really scary, once they are on 3+ bases.
Attacking is your best defense.

If you just sit there and let the zerg do whatever he wants to do, you'll lose.
No matter what league your Opponent is.

Diamond Zergs tend to drone to much in the early-mid game. (Because mid-late game will be very easy for them)
Try to punish them for it with aggression.
If you really want to play a macro game with a super greedy zerg, get greedy yourself and get a 3rd at around 8-9 min.

Feed me more

charliexjustice United States. April 02 2012 07:31. Posts 40

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Noob question here: do you ever 16 nex against z? I was under the impression that if you get to their base first try and see pool >14, you are safe to 16 nex.

Would the early game build order be changed at all by a 16 nex?

Also, on some maps like antiga and entombed, I like to get a 2nd cannon at the front just to be safe, but I noticed that with this build it delays my gases and messes things up. Should I not get that 2nd cannon, since this build is vs non gas openers by zerg? It just seems like one cannon can't quite cover the whole front, and I hate when those 4 zerglings are attacking the pylon on the very edge because the cannon can't reach them.

Thanks, Charlie

chestnutcc India. April 02 2012 07:44. Posts 429

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On April 02 2012 07:31 charliexjustice wrote:
Noob question here: do you ever 16 nex against z? I was under the impression that if you get to their base first try and see pool >14, you are safe to 16 nex.

Would the early game build order be changed at all by a 16 nex?

Also, on some maps like antiga and entombed, I like to get a 2nd cannon at the front just to be safe, but I noticed that with this build it delays my gases and messes things up. Should I not get that 2nd cannon, since this build is vs non gas openers by zerg? It just seems like one cannon can't quite cover the whole front, and I hate when those 4 zerglings are attacking the pylon on the very edge because the cannon can't reach them.

Thanks, Charlie

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=274355

charliexjustice United States. April 02 2012 17:59. Posts 40

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On April 02 2012 07:44 chestnutcc wrote:

Show nested quote +

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=274355

Very sorry, I asked this question in the wrong thread. Serves me right for having multiple threads open at once.

From now on I will be more careful!

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