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 Aunvilgod April 02 2012 19:00. Posts 2031 | Profile # |
| Well I am damn happy to live in Germany. |
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 zalz Netherlands. April 02 2012 19:01. Posts 3291 | Profile Blog # |
On April 02 2012 18:54 Supamang wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote:
2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
Eh...what would North Korea and their military have anything to do with unhappy citizens and high suicide rates? "Oh snap, those North Koreans are gonna kill us! Better kill myself before they do!"
There are recorded situations in which people killed their own children because they believed the end of the world was just around the corner.
Why would a much more real threat (North-Korea) not inspire people to kill themselves?
I don't believe that is the major contributor, but living next to a highly unstable nation that wants to more or less wipe you out, must add some level of stress.
On the other hand, Israel is surrounded by several nations that want to kill them, but they don't seem to be that depressed.Last edit: 2012-04-02 19:03:32 |
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| RancidTurnip United States. April 02 2012 19:03. Posts 105 | Profile # |
On April 02 2012 18:58 zalz wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote:
And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
There are people living in literal slavery, right this very moment. You might want to hold off on the hyperbole by claiming that working as a doctor and earning a six-digit salery is the same as being sold off into debt slavery from the age of 13 to work in some Pakistani mine, the only release being running or snuffing up the coal that you have to mine with equipment that would make it seem barbaric in the 1820's. Or maybe some Indian house-maid, working on Saudi-Arabia, where she can't leave because they take her passport and if she happens to die, regardless of the cause, it is deemed a suicide. It isn't slavery, it isn't nearly as bad as slavery. Slavery has a meaning, and despite what people like to believe, is still a very real problem in this day and age. You make light of the suffering of others when you pretend that the fate of slaves and office workers are so identical that they deserve the same name.
It's just the generic anti-capitalistic mantra of people who are familiar with nothing but socialist ideology.Last edit: 2012-04-02 19:06:53 |
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| horsebanger April 02 2012 19:03. Posts 132 | Profile # |
| I'm not surprised. This also explains the high ammount of gamers. |
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| zalz Netherlands. April 02 2012 19:04. Posts 3291 | Profile Blog # |
On April 02 2012 19:03 RancidTurnip wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 18:58 zalz wrote:
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote:
And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
There are people living in literal slavery, right this very moment. You might want to hold off on the hyperbole by claiming that working as a doctor and earning a six-digit salery is the same as being sold off into debt slavery from the age of 13 to work in some Pakistani mine, the only release being running or snuffing up the coal that you have to mine with equipment that would make it seem barbaric in the 1820's. Or maybe some Indian house-maid, working on Saudi-Arabia, where she can't leave because they take her passport and if she happens to die, regardless of the cause, it is deemed a suicide. It isn't slavery, it isn't nearly as bad as slavery. Slavery has a meaning, and despite what people like to believe, is still a very real problem in this day and age. You make light of the suffering of others when you pretend that the fate of slaves and office workers are so identical that they deserve the same name.
It's just the generic anti-capitalistic mantra of people who are familiar with nothing but socialist ideology.
I know it is, but those anti-capitalist people that care so much for people should stop and think about what they are saying. |
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| Supamang United States. April 02 2012 19:15. Posts 2084 | Profile # |
On April 02 2012 19:01 zalz wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 18:54 Supamang wrote:
On April 02 2012 18:41 Taf the Ghost wrote:
2 words: North Korea.
6 more words: Dictator with massive amounts of Artillery.
Any societal analysis of South Korea, without taking this into account, renders it completely mute.
Oh, and that regime just happened to recently acquire Nuclear Weapons. That's a true "fear factor".
The hours studied, per student, just means that Korean children are 1/2 as efficient as Finnish children at studying. That strikes me as a failure completely apart from economic.
The opening paragraph just happens to forgets Korean history from 1900 to 1960. Hard to build an economy when you aren't actually a country. Especially when compared to a former British Protectorate and a major world shipping hub (at the time).
Yeah, it's a pointless article that means nothing. But it fits well with the Guardian's political leanings. (I.e. if you think the reason this piece ran is really about South Korea, you're kidding yourself)
Eh...what would North Korea and their military have anything to do with unhappy citizens and high suicide rates? "Oh snap, those North Koreans are gonna kill us! Better kill myself before they do!"
There are recorded situations in which people killed their own children because they believed the end of the world was just around the corner. Why would a much more real threat (North-Korea) not inspire people to kill themselves? I don't believe that is the major contributor, but living next to a highly unstable nation that wants to more or less wipe you out, must add some level of stress. On the other hand, Israel is surrounded by several nations that want to kill them, but they don't seem to be that depressed.
Maybe, but I feel that those sorts of cases are so rare that its we shouldn't use them to generalize an entire nation.
Here in the US, we are made to believe that terrorists are out to get us, but we don't seem to be that unhappy. You also brought up Israel, which is a better example than the US. In both cases it seems like it just bolsters a stronger sense of nationalism. It might still be different though, since both US and Israel are significantly better armed than our enemies.
Anyway, I just thought that the guy was fishing for an alternative reason to divert attention away from the very reasonable arguments made by the article and that he came up with a pretty bad one. It might be a stretch to attribute a country's unhappiness (which is a highly subjective idea) to just economic deregulation, but arguing against it by bringing up an even worse reason to pin it on isnt great either. |
| | "I wish nothing but TheBestfOu" - Adele |
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| naVaz Germany. April 02 2012 19:15. Posts 38 | Profile # |
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote:
And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
exactly. it IS slavery. a very advanced form. all arround the world.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
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| Eiaco April 02 2012 19:16. Posts 170 | Profile # |
| That sounds trully awful. Thank god I do not live there. |
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| RancidTurnip United States. April 02 2012 19:17. Posts 105 | Profile # |
On April 02 2012 19:15 naVaz wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote:
And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
exactly. it IS slavery. a very advanced form. all arround the world. "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
If Capitalism is slavery, then by that same logic, so is Socialism.
You might not have to worry about losing your jobs, but you still need to have a job.Last edit: 2012-04-02 19:18:04 |
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| Dali. New Zealand. April 02 2012 19:23. Posts 671 | Profile # |
On April 02 2012 19:04 zalz wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 19:03 RancidTurnip wrote:
On April 02 2012 18:58 zalz wrote:
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote:
And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
There are people living in literal slavery, right this very moment. You might want to hold off on the hyperbole by claiming that working as a doctor and earning a six-digit salery is the same as being sold off into debt slavery from the age of 13 to work in some Pakistani mine, the only release being running or snuffing up the coal that you have to mine with equipment that would make it seem barbaric in the 1820's. Or maybe some Indian house-maid, working on Saudi-Arabia, where she can't leave because they take her passport and if she happens to die, regardless of the cause, it is deemed a suicide. It isn't slavery, it isn't nearly as bad as slavery. Slavery has a meaning, and despite what people like to believe, is still a very real problem in this day and age. You make light of the suffering of others when you pretend that the fate of slaves and office workers are so identical that they deserve the same name.
It's just the generic anti-capitalistic mantra of people who are familiar with nothing but socialist ideology.
I know it is, but those anti-capitalist people that care so much for people should stop and think about what they are saying.
Its probably prudent to hang your own biases at the door before accusing others of not doing the same.
The article did little more acknowledge Korea's rapid growth in GDP, innovation and academic excellence and contrast it with its abysmal rankings in 'human satisfaction'.
The conclusion simply suggested that were Britian to undertake the same growth-intensive measure in their economic model, they will likely see the decrease in the personal happiness of their population.
I must have missed the paragraph loudly extolling the gospel of Marx. |
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| Cereb Denmark. April 02 2012 19:31. Posts 2400 | Profile # |
Interesting article. From my own personal perspective I feel we have a smiliar situation between Denmark and Sweden. (I spent alot of time in both countries)
The Swedish people are amazing. They worker harder and longer. They study more and get better grades than us. And I have no study about this, but I'm pretty sure Danes rank very highly on the "laziest people on earth" list.
Yet if you look at the outcome, Sweden has a very high rate of suicides meanwhile Denmark was labeled as the happiest place on earth not too long ago. Also, for some reason, Sweden isn't even doing better than us economically which blows my mind since they also have alot more huge multinational businesses.
I've always felt good and safe having this tremendous security network in my country, but it turns out it might actually be benificial, too. |
| | "Until the very very top in almost anything, all that matters is how much work you put in. The only problem is most people can't work hard even at things they do enjoy, much less things they don't have a real passion for. -Greg "IdrA" Fields |
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| Deleuze United Kingdom. April 02 2012 19:43. Posts 1233 | Profile Blog # |
On April 02 2012 19:04 zalz wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 19:03 RancidTurnip wrote:
On April 02 2012 18:58 zalz wrote:
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote:
And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
There are people living in literal slavery, right this very moment. You might want to hold off on the hyperbole by claiming that working as a doctor and earning a six-digit salery is the same as being sold off into debt slavery from the age of 13 to work in some Pakistani mine, the only release being running or snuffing up the coal that you have to mine with equipment that would make it seem barbaric in the 1820's. Or maybe some Indian house-maid, working on Saudi-Arabia, where she can't leave because they take her passport and if she happens to die, regardless of the cause, it is deemed a suicide. It isn't slavery, it isn't nearly as bad as slavery. Slavery has a meaning, and despite what people like to believe, is still a very real problem in this day and age. You make light of the suffering of others when you pretend that the fate of slaves and office workers are so identical that they deserve the same name.
It's just the generic anti-capitalistic mantra of people who are familiar with nothing but socialist ideology.
I know it is, but those anti-capitalist people that care so much for people should stop and think about what they are saying.
It's really depressing when people come out with supposedly 'anti-capitalist' statements such as these about 'slavery'. How is anyone meant to be take any politically left thought seriously when people spout this nonsense? It just makes it so easy to ridicule the left.
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| | “An image of thought called philosophy has been formed historically and it effectively stops people from thinking.” ― Gilles Deleuze, Dialogues II |
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| Crushinator Netherlands. April 02 2012 19:43. Posts 1171 | Profile # |
Since the article mentions international testing, I would like to add that comparing nations by standardized tests can give a very misleading picture. The Netherlands for example scores the best out of non-asian nations for 'Grade 12', but this has to be because only the most gifted kids go to secondary school for that long, excluding the less gifted kids from being tested at all. Those not suited for University go to more proffesion-oriented colleges either 1 or 2 years sooner.
Math education in the Netherlands is extremely lacking in secondary schools for example, even comparing to only western nations, that is pretty much a fact. It is then very strange to see The Netherlands so high up the list. Though the 'advanced' list does paint a more realistic picture, because advanced classes don't exist in the same way.
Fact is that Asian, American and European education systems emphasize different skills. Asian systems very heavily emphasize Math and individual achievement, while Dutch education strongly emphasizes critical-thinking skills, understanding and group-work. From students that go for a semester abroad almost all agree that work-load in the US and Asia is much higher than here, but the work tends to be 'easier' in terms of depth of analysis, atleast for Economics.
I follow an English-language program that gets alot of international students, many of whom are Asian. The Asian students all score much better than other students on Math-heavy subjects, and the opposite is somewhat true for non-Math subjects. All international students agree that their Dutch class-mates are in general extremely lazy in their eyes. Point is that any test that wants to directly compare scores from different educational cultures is likely to be extremely biased one way or the other. Concluding that Asian education is outright better because of Math-testing and work ethic is questionable at best, considering many countries largely ignore the social sciences that are important in many Western nations.
Considering the great burden it puts on young people, perhaps the Asian nations would be wise to chill out a bit on the work-load. It really isn't necessary to be so proficient at math at such a young age. Some things are absorbed more efficiently by a fully matured brain.Then again I wouldn't want them to be as lazy and as terrible at Math as the average Dutch student either.
Edit: Scores from http://4brevard.com/choice/international-test-scores.htmLast edit: 2012-04-02 19:45:37 |
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| TeeTS Germany. April 02 2012 19:47. Posts 1729 | Profile # |
On April 02 2012 19:17 RancidTurnip wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 19:15 naVaz wrote:
On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote:
And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery.
exactly. it IS slavery. a very advanced form. all arround the world. "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
If Capitalism is slavery, then by that same logic, so is Socialism. You might not have to worry about losing your jobs, but you still need to have a job.
you are wrong. Because in socialism companies are owned by the state, and the state is owned by its people. (in theory!) So it's more or less a circle there people -> state -> companies -> people, while in capitalism with companies owned by private persons: boss -> company -> worker
This is VERY simplified, but more or less it works out this way. |
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| oldgregg April 02 2012 19:53. Posts 1162 | Profile # |
It could be due to inequality! There is a lot of evidence that suggests that more equal societies do alot better in terms of happiness and alot of other 'social' criteria, check it out!
http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/why/evidence |
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| goldenwitch United States. April 02 2012 19:53. Posts 319 | Profile # |
| Clearly an economist finds non-cultural reasons for unhappiness. If it's a free market that is making koreans unhappy, why is the rest of the western world which is also on a free market not unhappy? Japan and Korea have and have had more than just one thing in common culturally, particularly an intense pressure to conform. Why is that not even touched on? I feel like this guy simply has an opinion and then picked someone to try and back up his opinion. It's the kind of logic you find on the internet all the time(and usually dismiss out of hand). |
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| getpicture April 02 2012 19:53. Posts 128 | Profile # |
as a foreigner this is how i see it.
korea's economy grew too fast,and ppl failed to adapt. the so called modern high life, aka glamorous Las vegas has ruined and taunted men to work hard and earn their hot trophy wives and to enjoy their nightlife and the girls. men in power will do anything to have what they want. possibly masochistic(think korean internet trolls) this is why there's so much gender inequality. every guy there is thinking about hot girls > think kpop and overly sexualised women.many feel discouraged and turn to gaming/heavy drinking soju and other activities. the work for pleasure(hot wife) model there is ruining peoples' lives. think about the celeb scandals/ suicides/gossip. people perhaps are sick and tired of the korean bureaucratic ministers sexually taking advantage of the women there. that must explain the constant disturbed misogynistic male internet troll. Am I correct about this?(asking koreans here) For those that didn't know korean ginseng makes men horny.
on another note japan does resemble skorea mostly as in the lost decadeas well as being technologically advanced with high suicide rates with cram schools.
I mean look at china, so many ppl starving in poverty yet ppl are still so resilient and hardworking. To sum up I think people are frustrated at the extreme hierarchical structure there. I live in Australia and things are so relaxed- the high school is waste of time and rote learning in asia is a waste of time. Last edit: 2012-04-02 19:57:49 |
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| opisska Czech Republic. April 02 2012 19:55. Posts 654 | Profile Blog # |
Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up.Last edit: 2012-04-02 19:56:39 |
| | Not only do Germans continually save the economical asses of the rest of the EU, their Amazon also provides beta keys with preorders! |
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| Paperplane Netherlands. April 02 2012 19:57. Posts 1498 | Profile # |
People there have to realize there's diminishing returns on hours of studying. There's a limit to how much information you can absorb in a day. Those school children who make these crazy hours every day would probably learn the same amount if they spent less hours studying so they can recharge and refocus during breaks. And they'd be a whoooole lot happier!
It's like the people who say they just study 10 hours a day before major tests. They're actually wasting their time. Half the time you're just on "autopilot", reading but not really registering what you read.
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| TeeTS Germany. April 02 2012 20:01. Posts 1729 | Profile # |
On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote:
Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up.
you actually know, that the whole economical system would collapse, if everyone would start saving half of his income and stop spending?
And yeah, people just want too much... You seem to have a lot of life experience. Those greedy people working 50+ hours a week, they just want too much, while beeing so lazy. And you really dare to say such things while never having experienced how it is to have a regular full time job.
This is such a stupid post, really shame on you, so much words and so less sense!
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