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 Hetz April 03 2012 02:48. Posts 196 | Profile # |
Hi folks,
I am a platinum zerg player and I ran into a near GM toss today saying this about ZvP in which P goes FFE:
'If below masters, don't go for fast 3rd, but go for a 2 bases plus macro hatch instead'.
It should be easier to macro and better suited vs all-ins (which tend to happen a lot in the lower leagues).
Do you guys agree? |
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| mumpfel Germany. April 03 2012 03:01. Posts 43 | Profile # |
| I do not agree with the statement. Maybe it is easier to macro if you only have 2 bases but with the same logic you could just do a 1-base-allin against FFE because it is very easy to execute. If your macro falls apart every single game because of the 3rd base you could change your playstyle, but i think that a platinum zerg should be able to handle 3 early bases. |
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| Grayboosh United States. April 03 2012 03:30. Posts 68 | Profile # |
I agree if all you're trying to do is win games, because I remember as a younger zerg I had a tough time scouting and feeling out when pressure was coming and how hard it was going to come (that sounds really dirty).
That being said, you're not really going to be improving on your macro this way, and that should really be a zerg's strongest skill. You might end up winning a lot against cheesy 2 base all ins from toss in plat league, but when you get to diamond, toss might apply a little pressure, then take a quick third, and you're left with two bases preparing for an all-in.... you're going to get smoked.
I'd suggest working on the one-size-fits-all Stephano build. 70 supply and two expansions by the 8 minute mark, it'll teach you how to beat two base all-ins with macro.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324733 |
| | You're goin down gray bush. |
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| Berailfor April 03 2012 03:35. Posts 423 | Profile # |
Ya I don't agree with that statement at all. That's basically saying this "if your in a low league. Abuse the fact that your in a low league. And don't practice what is known to be the best play at higher leagues."
When I was in lower leagues. I played with the exact strategies I studied and knew were good that pros used. What happens when you get into master and your 2 basing and the toss steamroll you every game cause you really have no clue how to play standard against them? |
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| Ry-Masta-T United States. April 03 2012 03:46. Posts 478 | Profile Blog # |
I think this is actually pretty sound advice. You can always add a 4th hatch at your third if you get a good scout in and verify that they're not going to be too aggressive. I don't know too much about how platinum tosses play, but I have a feeling they very rarely play for a fast third, and mostly go for 2-base timings.
I think 2 base/3hatch muta/ling and then expanding while harassing would be a very strong style if you're not as comfortable with the fast 3rd base. |
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| dUTtrOACh Canada. April 03 2012 03:52. Posts 1642 | Profile # |
| Fast 3rd IS a macro hatch if you don't drone the third. Also, the 3rd base gases come in handy if you need tech to stop the all-ins. Honestly, I don't approve of any advice from a Toss on Zerg. Maybe if the guy was GM level Zerg. Just don't build your third towards the Toss. On maps where your 3rd is toward their base, this advice is a bit more understandable. |
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| MugenXBanksy United States. April 03 2012 03:56. Posts 382 | Profile # |
| as a dumb gold protoss aspiring to one day become great one day, some times I do try to take a fast third mostly to no avail thanks to ling run-by before i get a gate wall with cannons like on a map like tal'darim. Then again I still get the retards who get 40 mutas because they think it would be funny to make too many mutas when I only had a couple archons and a ball of blink stalkers with +2 attack |
| | we all hope to be like whitera one day |
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| Schnullerbacke13 Germany. April 03 2012 03:59. Posts 1181 | Profile # |
yes, its more safe to get a macro hatch before 3rd, because you can get an army more quick in case of a push. in fact this delays your 3rd not that much, as you'll have money for the 3rd pretty quickly when being 2 base. I don't think its less skilled, its just more safe. Ofc you'll profit more in lower leagues as 2 base pushes are more common.
Depends on map and spawning location. If the third is near and not easily cut off, always take it before macro hatch as there is low risk.Last edit: 2012-04-03 04:04:08 |
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| Filter Canada. April 03 2012 04:07. Posts 590 | Profile Blog # |
On April 03 2012 03:56 MugenXBanksy wrote:
as a dumb gold protoss aspiring to one day become great one day, some times I do try to take a fast third mostly to no avail thanks to ling run-by before i get a gate wall with cannons like on a map like tal'darim. Then again I still get the retards who get 40 mutas because they think it would be funny to make too many mutas when I only had a couple archons and a ball of blink stalkers with +2 attack
With any kind of reasonable control 40 muta's will destroy your eco and infrastructure. Archons are great to have but ideally try to land a good storm.
I can agree with what he's saying, the fast macro hatch is something a lot of high level zergs do anyway when they're not sure if there will be a fast +1 zealot push to kill the third. There's also a lot of weird shit at low levels like 3 stargate play that will just straight up kill your third, even if it is lategame crippling.
With a macro hatch you can saturate the third extremely fast, it's not even that tough on economy. |
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| lwwkicker United States. April 03 2012 04:49. Posts 134 | Profile Blog # |
I don't agree with that GM Protoss' statement at all. 3 base is the norm, and (imo) it is the way to go against an FFE Protoss. If the build is 'above your head', then what better way to remedy that than by trying to get the build down. If you are finding yourself getting stomped over and over by all-ins (or you are on a map where the third is hard to take or secure), then you might need to switch things up. Otherwise, I see absolutely no reason not to go for it. You should still be able to hold all-ins on 3 base, as long as you scout it coming and practice the appropriate responses.
If you aren't good at something, there's one surefire way to get better. Just do it. Get better at it. Profit. |
| | If you want advice on something, include a god damn replay! |
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| lhr0909 United States. April 03 2012 04:57. Posts 531 | Profile Blog # |
| Even if you are trying to hold an all in, it is way better to have 55 drones mining on 3 bases than 2. So if you are going to put down a hatch to get the production for holding off an all in, you might as well put it in the mineral patches. |
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| Grayboosh United States. April 03 2012 05:10. Posts 68 | Profile # |
I assumed it went without saying that the OP is considering a macro hatch versus a hard to defend third base. Obviously if the third is at a location that's easy to defend, you should definetely just build your "macro hatch" at your third base.
On a map like TDA, you're probably going to lose a lot before you get the hang of macroing off of 3 bases versus FFE, just because the third is so vulnerable and you probably won't have creep to connect your bases without sacrificing critical injects up to 8 minute mark. That's not to say you shouldn't still practice taking a third on TDA, it just means that you have to be even more vigilant with scouting proxy pylons with your initial lings and overlord scouting to make sure you're ready for a 2 base all in.
A couple general reactions / tips if you attempt to go for 3 bases on tough maps like TDA:
For maps with hard to defend thirds, if you scout a toss setting up a proxy pylon near your third, you know that he's going to look to exploit that. You probably won't have enough units out to kill that pylon (unless you haven't been droning that hard), so as soon as you spot the pylon getting created, throw down a couple spines at your third, because he's coming for it or he's going to die trying. You better have your roach warren up at this point. Start rallying to your third, and delay his push by running your speedlings around, threatening to take out his proxy pylon. |
| | You're goin down gray bush. |
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| Tobberoth Sweden. April 03 2012 05:14. Posts 4549 | Profile # |
Definitely do the 3 hatch roach style. It puts great strain on your macro ability, which is great since that's what every player should want to improve, and if you macro well with it, it's extremely strong and good against pretty much anything, unlike other styles like 2base muta which relies on gimmicky play.
Learn how the style works, train it against very easy AI until you can do a good benchmark until you're maxed and you should be OK. |
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| lwwkicker United States. April 03 2012 05:43. Posts 134 | Profile Blog # |
On April 03 2012 05:10 Grayboosh wrote:
I assumed it went without saying that the OP is considering a macro hatch versus a hard to defend third base.
There is absolutely nothing to suggest that in the OP, at all.
'If below masters, don't go for fast 3rd, but go for a 2 bases plus macro hatch instead'.
Seems to imply that in all circumstances he should be going for a macro hatch.
Personally, I veto any and all maps that have rocks at the third. That is really the only thing I care about when vetoing maps as zerg. |
| | If you want advice on something, include a god damn replay! |
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| Drowsy United States. April 03 2012 05:45. Posts 4826 | Profile Blog # |
Yes, I do agree. Allins probably don't came that much more often in plat vs masters, but your mechanics and timing probably suck too much to defend them. I think 2 base mass spines+mutas is probably the strongest strategy at your level.
In the interest of getting better, however, I would practice stephano style. You're going to lose some games foolishly but it will help develop your mechanics and timing a lot better. Last edit: 2012-04-03 05:47:37 |
| | Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us. |
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| TheV Brazil. April 03 2012 05:54. Posts 99 | Profile # |
I don't think most GM players understand the skill level of "Masters and below".
I just got promoted from Platinum to Diamond and I must disagree with his statement, I pretty much always go for a 3 base Stephano style roaches, it is GREAT for you to establish macro benchmarks and improve your play. (65 - 70 food @ 8 mns for instance)
And if you plan to improve and reach masters one day, I don't see the point of practicing a build that would not work on those higher levels. |
| | Storm is coming that cannot be avoided. |
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| PlacidPanda United States. April 03 2012 05:57. Posts 243 | Profile # |
| If you were a low gold maybe, GM players underestimate the rising skill level of plat players, they are still obviously not amazing but are good enough to be able to easily benefit from 3 bases and hold allins. |
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| WolfintheSheep Canada. April 03 2012 06:03. Posts 1768 | Profile # |
I get the statement, even if I don't agree with it.
In lower leagues, it's really easy to take that 3rd base, but damn hard to know how to defend it properly against All-Ins, or just normal aggression. Unless someone tells you specifically to do 5:00 and 7:00 building timings (or 6:00 & 7:00 for Stephano style), and exactly what to scout for and when to pump units, you'll almost always lose your 3rd base to anyone that attacks.
With that said, it's a problem of the "Macro better" mentality where people refuse to tell you the proper builds when you're not in Masters, and not that lower league players can't defend a 3rd. |
| | Average means I'm better than half of you. |
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| Grayboosh United States. April 03 2012 06:05. Posts 68 | Profile # |
[QUOTE]On April 03 2012 05:43 lwwkicker wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 03 2012 05:10 Grayboosh wrote:
I assumed it went without saying that the OP is considering a macro hatch versus a hard to defend third base.[/QUOTE]
There is absolutely nothing to suggest that in the OP, at all.
I should've said that YOU should assume it goes without saying that we're talking about a hard to defend third vs a macro hatch. Obviously, you should always take an easy to defend third over a macro hatch. |
| | You're goin down gray bush. |
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| ShinyGerbil Canada. April 03 2012 06:07. Posts 510 | Profile Blog # |
| At GM, you will have a hard time winning with 2 base in the midgame for zvp. At any other level, it won't give you any problems. The only difference is that 2 base lets you be slightly safer vs all ins. Therefore, if you want to win, you mine as well go 2 base. It really won't put you further behind, as long as your mechanics are sound. But if you want to take on the task of learning a harder build, by all means go ahead. |
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