Every time I'm watching a cast, be it from IPL or EG, I see several things that I find that a caster/observer should/shouldn't be doing. Instead of posting these grievances in the LR threads and never being seen by anyone who might have some affect over these suggestions being taken into consideration, I thought it might be helpful for everyone involved if we had a place to bring our thoughts, ideas, comments, and criticisms all into one place.
I'm not starting this thread so that the negative vibe-rs have a place to spout their unhelpful nonsense. If you find a caster personally aggravating I would suggest you not let yourself be clouded by your distaste for them. Allow yourself to take a step back, and without letting your emotions get in the way try to find a logical explanation as to why you are put off by a certain caster's style or mannerisms.
But that's not really what this thread was made for, if you do have a problem tho keep it polite and remember not to be controlled by your stupid human emotions when posting. I know from experience, while sometimes it can make quite a few people laugh along with you about it, eventually its just bad taste and not the type of scene that we want to be associated with this community. We're above all that.
Here is the issue I was having while watching IPL just now that sparked the idea for this thread's inception. MC had already pushed himself all the way into Violet's base and the camera didn't have anywhere else really to be other than on the army and watch the engagement as Violet slowly was crippled into submission. (This goes for every league and tournament not just this one isolated incident I used as an example.)
While the engagement was happening I was extensively wondering as to what certain stats and upgrades were for both players. I wanted to know how many kills the last surviving immortal had on him, as well as know what the Protoss upgrades were in comparison to the Zerg's. Unfortunately the observer just proceeded to select groups of units as they battled. I'm not really sure how that benefits the cast.
I'd also like to see much more usage of all the things that we all were so thrilled to see implemented into the replay interface. Seeing what our favorite player's APM is has always been something we're interested in knowing. And it used to be seemingly important to the casters themselves as well. Now its very rare we see them check it. Do people not care anymore about it, is it just me? I feel as though it adds quite a bit of insight into our experience of watching our most revered players and seeing the difference in APM between the two competitors just adds that much more intrigue into a series.
Of course I'd also like to see more variance in the use of drop down tabs such as the units lost tab and economy and army value etc. But not in quick succession, I think if you look at one in a moment of downtime, then go back to play by play and analysis, and then look at another a little later... that would be the best way to utilize them. They're there, why not use them? If there is a reason as to why they don't look at some of them.... such as if they do that it may be taking some of the excitement out of the game let me know if thats the case, but I don't see it that way myself.
---------------------------------------------------------- That is basically it, I'd like to see more work out of our Observers instead of just watching the battles and doing the same old thing we've seen countless times during countless hours of casts. Lets see some fresh ideas come into play, like what we saw at Dreamhack with the Pulse Meter. Watching Hero's pulse rise and fall and thinking how his heart must be bumping incredibly fast as the game would start and then when he would get into his groove watching his nerves calm. And at the end pnce he knew he had the game won you would see him get excited again.......
Point is, this added so much more depth into the experience. And that is something I believe should be sought after for each of these varying tournaments and leagues. Ultimately what will separate any other tournament/league from one that will be remembered is how much of an experience it really was, how much you felt you were enthralled how deep you were immersed into every aspect of the games you were watching. You want to feel as much a part of the games as the players themselves, and I believe one important way of accomplishing that will be how you go about delivering to the viewers as much information available as possible. As well as remembering that for something to stand out it of course must have some innovative, original qualities. Something as simple as the TSL3's use of the astounding portrait art by Glider as their competitor's profile. Keeping things fresh will be what helps to drive this sport into the next tier of entertainment and popularity, and then the next one. As soon as we think that everything is figured out and there's one way to do it best that's when things will stagnate and lose the incredible pace at which we're seeing it grow. New isn't always better however, but I'd rather see someone try something and realize next time not to go that way than never take a risk.
EDIT: Another few ideas....
On April 05 2012 13:47 Probasaur wrote: I had a pritty strange idea while watching EGMCSL tonight. When Puma was going mech against Cocoa in the final game he moved out with his thors and caught Cocoa's army moving around and the 10 or so thor's seemingly all got in range of the mutas and a huge volley came out all at once towards the mutas. Unfortunately they only caught the tail end of it on camera so we saw the sun blacked out by thor missiles, and then just "red mist" as Wheat described it. So we really had no idea how many mutas were just wasted there.
So my idea was to have some sort of replay feature. Maybe even finally starting to implement the future of what internet streaming is heading towards, which is of course interactive media. What Day9 always talks about why he think its the way watching shows and such live online have such a huge advantage over traditional media. Right now I don't see anything relative to that in the starcraft scene other than when we see talk shows like SOTG, InsideTheGame, and the Daily taking calls. But what we need to see more of I think is real interactivity. What I'm talking about is have some sort of voting pop up during the games. It could ask something like, "WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE A REPLAY OF THAT THOR BLAST?" And then of course everyone votes yes, and then a small split screen similar to what they use now in the EG MCSL will pop up and show us. Or it could ask something like... "What one unit would you like to follow?" And then everyone votes on like one immortal or one infestor and we have a PIP screen following their journey.
I actually think something like that could seriously change the way we watch Starcraft.
Last edit: 2012-04-05 15:05:21
"He who makes a beast of himself.... gets rid of the pain of being a man" -Hunter S Thompson.
Not trying to be mean, but you should just tell the organizations. They won't know unless you tell them.
I am a: Brood war fan, high level Tribes Ascend player, Web/graphic designer, and lover of competitive gaming. Proleague is best league. Symtex in Dota 2/sc2/Tribes
Probasaur United States. April 04 2012 13:03. Posts 461
Caster duos work because of this. One guy does the john madden thing, while the other guy makes these kind of observations, like artosis does, but everyone hates on him because of that. When both casters are being enthusiastic for no reason and just blabbering nonsense, well, mute it and put some music, everyone is learning and I'm quite sure they know they are not perfect.
0neder United States. April 04 2012 13:11. Posts 3732
I would like to see no visible progress bars. Show me the game, not the stats. Also, promote uncertainty, do not predict that viewers will be bored if they watch the rest of the match by calling the game prematurely.
On April 04 2012 13:03 Probasaur wrote: Thats what I'm hoping to accomplish here.... isn't it?
Its an open letter to all organizations not just one in particular.
Than just email the organizations themselves. Here your just hoping they'll read it.
I am a: Brood war fan, high level Tribes Ascend player, Web/graphic designer, and lover of competitive gaming. Proleague is best league. Symtex in Dota 2/sc2/Tribes
CPTBadAss United States. April 04 2012 13:18. Posts 593
I'd love to see the MCSL style split-screening of the games. I'm tired of missing the drop because the camera can only focus on the main push.
I'd also love to see a BW style overlay with map name, total score in the series, and proper player name. Too often is a tournament lazy and just uses the standard SC2 overlay. If someone doesn't have an NA account and is borrowing an account to play in the clan war/tournament, it doesn't display the real players name. This is a real pain in the ass when you start watching half way through. In the same vein, there should be the total score displayed; if its a bo5, there should be a little marker that says 1-1 or whatever. And with the huge array of map pools and new maps, it'd be nice to have a little map indicator.
I'll keep on struggling, 'cause that's the measure of a man | "That was the plan: To give him some hope, and then crush him" -Stephano
Probasaur United States. April 04 2012 13:34. Posts 461
On April 04 2012 13:18 CPTBadAss wrote: I'd love to see the MCSL style split-screening of the games. I'm tired of missing the drop because the camera can only focus on the main push.
I'd also love to see a BW style overlay with map name, total score in the series, and proper player name. Too often is a tournament lazy and just uses the standard SC2 overlay. If someone doesn't have an NA account and is borrowing an account to play in the clan war/tournament, it doesn't display the real players name. This is a real pain in the ass when you start watching half way through. In the same vein, there should be the total score displayed; if its a bo5, there should be a little marker that says 1-1 or whatever. And with the huge array of map pools and new maps, it'd be nice to have a little map indicator.
I too have wished many times that the map name would be displayed, as well as everything else you mentioned.
Here's a fresh idea I just had. What if they would show the upgrades for each player on a small portion of the interface on the bottom where its mostly just not important graphic things. Just have a person on the production staff (a SirScoots type job, that he does very well) updating it during the game. Some sort of overlay similar to the EG players use whilst streaming, and on this overlay display the things you just mentioned as well as the upgrades instead of somewhere on the top where its the actual game.
Last edit: 2012-04-04 13:36:25
"He who makes a beast of himself.... gets rid of the pain of being a man" -Hunter S Thompson.
I think there's a lot to learn from Korean casters for foreign commentators. Things like talking more about players in the game than the outside joke, or making a joke that is related to the game (Serving Bulgogi is a really good joke they use in the end).
Without love, we can't see anything. Without love, the truth can't be seen. - Umineko no Naku Koro Ni
Mohdoo United States. April 04 2012 14:02. Posts 3940
Observing is downright terrible across the board in every foreigner event. Compared to GSL, its a pain to watch. This is definitely one of the biggest issues that needs to be addressed.
Additionally, casters need to do everything they can to model their casting after the youtube video posted above of the Koreans.
One thing that bugs me is the preemptive GG that some of the casters do. DRG vs Parting on Crossfire last GSL is the perfect example, where + Show Spoiler +
Tasteless preemptively GG for DRG, then DRG comes back and wins it
Every person who observe a sc2 game should go for a week long stage with ST_Legend, that would be very beneficial. He's so good man, i have so much respect for his work. His observer's skill is so huge he has often shown what's coming before the casters gets to see it/talk about it. Seriously, this guy is wow.
The only thing i feel awkward is when he's constantly switching between production and units tabs. That's so weird, sometimes you get confuse if you're not watching carefully. Anyway he's seriously good.
Last edit: 2012-04-04 14:29:20
Probasaur United States. April 04 2012 16:07. Posts 461
On April 04 2012 13:51 Veldril wrote: A good start:
I think there's a lot to learn from Korean casters for foreign commentators. Things like talking more about players in the game than the outside joke, or making a joke that is related to the game (Serving Bulgogi is a really good joke they use in the end).
This is definitely something people should take notice of and if they're serious about what they do I would hope they would take a lot of mental notes while watching. Looking forward to more of these.
Last edit: 2012-04-04 16:08:16
"He who makes a beast of himself.... gets rid of the pain of being a man" -Hunter S Thompson.
Probasaur United States. April 05 2012 13:16. Posts 461
Everything I'd like improve caster/obs wise requires blizzard to improve the observing interface.
Look at DotA 2 or custom 1v1 obs maps on bnet to see what kind of features I'm talking about in particular.
Zoom in/Zoom out Cinematic mode Action based alerts (so casters dont miss drops) Smoother camera movements, 360 degree rotation Ability to drag around production tabs and other parts of the overlay
prowala United States. April 05 2012 13:35. Posts 147
On April 05 2012 13:16 Probasaur wrote: Ahh my first thread dies a miserable death..... I thought I had a pretty nice OP too. Oh wells, good writing practice.
Aw dude, I thought that was a nice OP and a fine thread.
When in doubt, nydus.
Probasaur United States. April 05 2012 13:47. Posts 461
I had a pritty strange idea while watching EGMCSL tonight. When Puma was going mech against Cocoa in the final game he moved out with his thors and caught Cocoa's army moving around and the 10 or so thor's seemingly all got in range of the mutas and a huge volley came out all at once towards the mutas. Unfortunately they only caught the tail end of it on camera so we saw the sun blacked out by thor missiles, and then just "red mist" as Wheat described it. So we really had no idea how many mutas were just wasted there.
So my idea was to have some sort of replay feature. Maybe even finally starting to implement the future of what internet streaming is heading towards, which is of course interactive media. What Day9 always talks about why he think its the way watching shows and such live online have such a huge advantage over traditional media. Right now I don't see anything relative to that in the starcraft scene other than when we see talk shows like SOTG, InsideTheGame, and the Daily taking calls. But what we need to see more of I think is real interactivity. What I'm talking about is have some sort of voting pop up during the games. It could ask something like, "WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE A REPLAY OF THAT THOR BLAST?" And then of course everyone votes yes, and then a small split screen similar to what they use now in the EG MCSL will pop up and show us. Or it could ask something like... "What one unit would you like to follow?" And then everyone votes on like one immortal or one infestor and we have a PIP screen following their journey.
I actually think something like that could seriously change the way we watch Starcraft.
"He who makes a beast of himself.... gets rid of the pain of being a man" -Hunter S Thompson.
I never felt that this was an issue for me, but now that you bring that up, its true that the casting could/should be a lot better. Maybe we are focusing too much in the personality, voice and popularity rather than good (korean good) casting habilities.
I think that caster should work in this mechanical aspects of observing the game as you said, checking ups and using a lot more the good amount of tools we have in the game.
Good thread overall keep it up
Liquid.Hero Startale.Bomber MVP.Dongraegu
AcrosstheSky United States. April 05 2012 13:53. Posts 237
Oh my god. The korean casters are fantastic. They talk about the game and understand it as well as making it incredibly exciting to watch and funny. It's really true that good casting makes the esport since here i can appreciate all the things and decisions that are being made compared to a caster saying nothing is going on except their macroing, time to make jokes.
spancho United States. April 05 2012 14:04. Posts 159
I support this thread in no uncertain terms. So many times Ive seen casters fail to show what actually happening because all they focus on in the one big engagement in the middle. Seriously, keep your eyes on the minimap! Not to hate on the casters, I love you guys, but a little map awareness goes a long way.
Specifically one improvement I would like to see would be if obs would give us the camera view from the players perspective more often, especially in the early game. In a game where intel is so important, there is surpisingly little time spent talking about the information that players know about eachother.
"Your face can't hurt 'cuz you're ugly." -Tasteless
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Probasaur United States. April 04 2012 12:30. Posts 461
