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| dronefarm United States. April 05 2012 23:39. Posts 260 | Profile Blog # |
Hey guys. I've been having a lot of trouble versus terran. I open with a 2 base 3 hatch style using my gas for double ups while waiting for infestors to double expand going for a fast hive with 3/5 ultra/ling. I'm having some problems throughout various stages of the game.
1) I'm having big problems versus Stim timings. I feel like the push is coming at me around the time I start pathogen glands, so I don't have my infestors in time to stop it, and my lings just get eaten alive. 2 base allins of any kind really give me trouble to be honest
2) I don't know how to play versus anything but reactor hellion, really. I know if I can I should be expanding earlier, but no matter what I stick to my 2 base 3 hatch style even when I could get my third much faster (sometimes I put my macro hatch at the expo, but still, I feel it's late). I don't really know how to capitalize on any advantage; I pretty much just know the timings based on my one build.
3) When my opponent is aggressive, I feel like I have a really hard time making decisions in the midgame about how to spend my money. If my opponent plays passively, I feel really comfortable with all my unit decision making, because It's pretty straightforward, but when I can't jump straight to hive, I feel uncomfortable spending my gas, so I end up with a lot of extra resources.
4) My lategame sucks. I'm really bad with my decision making with my ultras and when to switch into broodlords. I feel like I don't have very strong multitask, and drops (even with 3 spines a base) become a big problem for me and I lose track of things I really need to focus on, like tracking my opponents expansions. I also feel like almost every game I win in the lategame (that is to say my first ultra push didn't do irreparable damage) is due to my opponent not being able to macro appropriately to take advantage of my poor decision making with my hive tech units/infestors.
I would appreciate if some people would browse over A few replays I have that showcase some of my problems.
What A pretty normal game looks like for me so you know what my goals are like
http://drop.sc/154118
Bunker pressure
http://drop.sc/154116
Longer Game shows problems with decision making in mid and poor lategame
http://drop.sc/154119
Against a 2 base allin
http://drop.sc/154120
A good example of a stim timing giving me problems, the terran pulled back unnecessarily, but he should have won the game.
http://drop.sc/154121
Thanks for any help ^^ |
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| dronefarm United States. April 06 2012 01:47. Posts 260 | Profile Blog # |
I just played another ame that demonstrates my poor decision making in the late game even better, so this might help ^^
http://drop.sc/154188 |
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| dronefarm United States. April 06 2012 03:19. Posts 260 | Profile Blog # |
Nothing?  |
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| MugenSC United States. April 06 2012 03:50. Posts 11 | Profile # |
I think your thread is much too general, its almost like coaching than an issue that requires advise, try to deal with one issues with a time.
BTW bullets 1-3 are like the problems most Zergs are facing,
1. What most people do against this is banes... incorporate that into your build and if you spread your creep even without speed you can hold pretty easily
2. seriously? what kind of response are you expecting here? >_<
3. the advantage that Muta have over infestor play is the ease of applying pressure, but there are other ways to do that - what you should aim for is delaying the push, making everything you can to buy yourself time to get more bases and hive tech.
first thing i can think of is borrowed Infestors. 1 with full health can cause hell in the mineral line and force the army back, unlike muta where he can pull 10 marines with 1 medivac and stop most Muta aggression infested terrans require more to stop and so he will probably pull a lot more, if he pulls too much you can kill him.
another thing would be runbys. leave 20 lings somewhere around his base, if you see him pushing run them in, i can assure you that unless your a masters player he 90% he will pull his army back.
4. whats broken now about the game is that T lost their counter to both tech choices (ghosts). they used to be able to make ghosts and deal with both, now its not so simple - so any tech switch, Ulta-Brood or vise versa is very effective (much like P massing Zealots after the T makes 20 vikings).
Practice, think, push yourself to work faster but do everything you can to stay calm. otherwise you "lose track of things"
hope this helps.
Enjoy.
Last edit: 2012-04-06 03:52:30 |
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| dronefarm United States. April 06 2012 04:03. Posts 260 | Profile Blog # |
On April 06 2012 03:50 MugenSC wrote:
I think your thread is much too general, its almost like coaching than an issue that requires advise, try to deal with one issues with a time.
BTW bullets 1-3 are like the problems most Zergs are facing,
1. What most people do against this is banes... incorporate that into your build and if you spread your creep even without speed you can hold pretty easily
2. seriously? what kind of response are you expecting here? >_<
3. the advantage that Muta have over infestor play is the ease of applying pressure, but there are other ways to do that - what you should aim for is delaying the push, making everything you can to buy yourself time to get more bases and hive tech.
first thing i can think of is borrowed Infestors. 1 with full health can cause hell in the mineral line and force the army back, unlike muta where he can pull 10 marines with 1 medivac and stop most Muta aggression infested terrans require more to stop and so he will probably pull a lot more, if he pulls too much you can kill him.
another thing would be runbys. leave 20 lings somewhere around his base, if you see him pushing run them in, i can assure you that unless your a masters player he 90% he will pull his army back.
4. whats broken now about the game is that T lost their counter to both tech choices (ghosts). they used to be able to make ghosts and deal with both, now its not so simple - so any tech switch, Ulta-Brood or vise versa is very effective (much like P massing Zealots after the T makes 20 vikings).
Practice, think, push yourself to work faster but do everything you can to stay calm. otherwise you "lose track of things"
hope this helps.
Enjoy.
Well, I do backstabs, and do techswitch, the issue is when I do it. I think you probably didn't watch the replays :/
As for bullet point 2, there are a lot of responses someone could give. For example someone could suggest "if you have map control, don't make the third queen right away and make a hatch at your 3rd instead" or something (I'm not sure what the real answer is, but it's certainly not a horrible question.
And for 3, my question is how to make decisions with my larvae (and especially gas) in midgame :/
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| vorxaw Canada. April 06 2012 04:19. Posts 227 | Profile # |
| What works well against me is zergs that cut a tiny bit of economy and over make lings that crush my first attack, then the zerg can easily catch up in economy where as i will never be able to have as strong of a marinetank army. Been seeing this strat on streams as well, dont try and balance your units/economy too finely, overmake lings a bit first, then get back to cranking out drones once youre safe, as terran i dont really know how to deal with that yet |
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| dronefarm United States. April 06 2012 04:23. Posts 260 | Profile Blog # |
On April 06 2012 04:19 vorxaw wrote:
What works well against me is zergs that cut a tiny bit of economy and over make lings that crush my first attack, then the zerg can easily catch up in economy where as i will never be able to have as strong of a marinetank army. Been seeing this strat on streams as well, dont try and balance your units/economy too finely, overmake lings a bit first, then get back to cranking out drones once youre safe, as terran i dont really know how to deal with that yet
I do. If you watch the reps, I make pure zergling until my third base is about to be done after I have 2 base saturation and I don't start my third untill infestors are out...Last edit: 2012-04-06 04:25:32 |
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| Aalo United States. April 06 2012 04:48. Posts 33 | Profile # |
havn't had the time to look at the replays, but from the sounds of things, you're unsure of when to put up your macro hatch (or you're torn between expanding or putting down a macro hatch).
Generally around 45-50 food i'll poke at the front, and attempt to get a feel for how much stuff the Terran has. If he doesn't have a lot, i'll expand to my third. However if he has a lot of, let's say a decent sized force of Marines and a small amount of tanks, i'll put down a macro hatch, and a baneling nest. (just because the nest is there doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be used) If the Terrans forces doesn't look all too imtimidating i'll throw down my 3rd instead of a macro hatchery and get one shortly after i put down my infestation pit. |
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| 6xFPCs United States. April 06 2012 12:32. Posts 357 | Profile # |
watching replays.
game 1 notes:+ Show Spoiler +
solid opening. good scout, though you leave the drone at the tower and lose it. i think you realize that gas meant reactor hellion, but your spine feels late.
you see his expo, but you don't try to take your third. no hellion pressure and you don't bother to sneak your third? hm.
you're doing ok, but your macro hatch is a bit late. no scouting, either.
you go to four gases without evos or lair started, not even a baneling nest.
by 9min, you've glanced at his base twice total, one of those times being with your scouting drone. this is why you feel lost in the midgame--no scouting info. by 9:30 you're floundering, with 1k minerals, 500 gas in the bank, and no real tech. you have 0-0 lings and no baneling nest or roach warren or lair, you've barely started 1-1 for lings. this is ZERO tech. based on what you've seen, banelings at the very least are needed to not die to a stim timing, or a marine-tank timing.
you put down infestation pit at 9:45. infestor ling with late upgrades is not how the strategy goes.
you have trouble with the marine drop because you have ONLY lings.
side note: don't freak out when he scans your third. it usually means he hasn't moved out yet, and is trying to decide if he should.
he's not upgrading, your lings start taking things apart.
then you throw your lings away before your ultras pop, and before 3-3, and before adrenal glands finish. all just to force him to float his third? i guess you got some workers too. still, you should wait for your investments in tech to pay off.
why don't you bring your infestors with your ultra-ling?
why did you have me look at a win...? not nearly as useful to either of us.
thus far, this is my take: you have problems scouting, which leaves you unsure of what to do. so you do nothing. you don't take a third OR a macro hatch. you don't choose a tech path (muta or infestor), or even get banelings to defend yourself against your feared stimmed marines. eventually you makes choices, but you putter around for so long that you've managed to introduce a third option in both cases--do nothing. which is worse than either of the other options. this is like leaving idle larvae for several minutes because you don't know if you can drone or not. first, find out if you can. second, you need to make a choice even if you're not sure. you're failing on both those counts.
the good? you stay ahead in econ.
game 2 notes:+ Show Spoiler +
keep your second overlord over your 15hatch so you don't get bunker surprises like that. when the bunker is done, yes place the spine, but don't use your drones to attack a finished bunker, go sniff out the rallied marine and pick him apart. if you can get him before he gets to the bunker his pressure is delayed by, in this type of one rax bunker pressure, a whole marine's build time (25s).
your gas is very early, and is cutting into your econ.
short and sweet. he was still in the game, though, with that second CC and a full wall.
but, stop showing me wins. this is ridiculous, are you just trying to brag? because with these wins, plus how you're responding to posts, it's like you're not ready to acknowledge your problems.
game 3 notes:+ Show Spoiler +
you stall at 26-28 supply, just like in game 1. make this mental note: when i pull drones off gas, i start speed, then i start an overlord. you're getting at least 30s supply block, plus it really feels like you try to fudge around it by placing a tumor and timing it so you start ling speed here. why ling speed? why tumor? i don't think you need either at the time you're getting them. if that tumor was an inject and you didn't grab gas, you'd be up a few workers on the terran, instead of about even.
while we're at it, 44 is a weird small supply block for you, too. could be due to the shift to two hatch injects instead of one hatch inject plus tumor at natural. be aware of it.
there you go with four gases and no gas sink again. you also haven't scouted beyond the early gas, just like game 1. so you know it's reactored hellions, have you confirmed expo? do you see marauders (red flag for potential all-in)? nope, even though you have an overlord above your third, ready to scout him.
your macro hatch is somewhat late, 8min. plus your evos. you know you shoot up to 500 gas before even starting lair? and you floating at least 400 for the next two minutes (generous, you go up to 1k)?
you let him siege at your third because you have no scouting info. this is terrible. you have no scouting info ever. but yay 1-1 lings clean up marine tank, even without infestors, so you're fine.
you're floating 1.2k gas, what are you going to do with it? you start hive, once you realize that 3-3 requires hive i think, but why don't you attack after crushing that army?
you guys fumble around near your third for awhile. you won't move past the ramp, he has the tanks in his main supporting his army. eventually you lose your third, not surprising, but good, you have other bases up.
fumbling... use infested terrans when trying to break siege line...
past 28min, it seems to be the two of you pseudo-macroing.
oh god, another win. sigh, why am i even surprised.
Here's your problem: scouting. You feel afraid of things because you don't scout and see what he's actually doing, so you're afraid of all possibilities, and I guess are too paralyzed by that to commit to a tech or expo, or really any focused plan. You stay on lings for too long, and the only thing that keeps you alive is that no one is upgrading their marines, so your 1-1 lings shred everything.
So start scouting. Keep a ling at the front of his base. Hellions? fine, let him have map control, build a few roaches to secure your third. Float an overlord in to scout if necessary.
A few other issues:
If he denies your third, put down that macro hatch; you need the production, earlier, especially with such a ling-heavy style.
Get banes if you're afraid of marines, and spread creep.
Either take your gases later, or learn how to properly spend the gas on tech. Have your evos ready earlier, have the lair done faster, something so that you can actually use the gas. Feels like you're following one build at the start (solid), then you heard some timing for four gas and just assumed that would tack on ok.
But really? Your problem is not scouting.
And your other problem is posting wins. I'm confident you're bad at scouting--so bad that you don't do it more than once or twice each game--and that your macro needs some work (whose doesn't?), but by looking at wins, I can't tell for sure what is giving you ZvT problems. Where are those stim timing replays? You said you're afraid of 2-base stim, so show me why. Not even going to look at the other games in the OP, I bet they're also wins. |
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| dronefarm United States. April 06 2012 13:15. Posts 260 | Profile Blog # |
On April 06 2012 12:32 6xFPCs wrote:
And your other problem is posting wins. I'm confident you're bad at scouting--so bad that you don't do it more than once or twice each game--and that your macro needs some work (whose doesn't?), but by looking at wins, I can't tell for sure what is giving you ZvT problems. Where are those stim timing replays? You said you're afraid of 2-base stim, so show me why. Not even going to look at the other games in the OP, I bet they're also wins.
I posted 2 wins in the entire thing (well, 3, but I was very clearly dead in the ST game because of the same stim timing I was asking about, the terran just let me live for some reason), 1 of which was intended to show what a really clean game looks like for me, the other shows really well my problems in midgame with larvae decision making and lategame and really should be a loss (I won with 4 broodlords , no bank and long distance mining against a terran floating almost 6k, obviously should have been a loss, too). I got hit by 2 base stim in most of those games as well. Also, in game 2 you said I won when I lost (hence a 5 minute game), so I don't know if you're just not paying attention or what :/
Last edit: 2012-04-06 13:19:08 |
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| dronefarm United States. April 06 2012 13:18. Posts 260 | Profile Blog # |
| Double Post, sorry :/ Last edit: 2012-04-06 13:18:41 |
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| 6xFPCs United States. April 06 2012 13:43. Posts 357 | Profile # |
On April 06 2012 13:15 dronefarm wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 12:32 6xFPCs wrote:
And your other problem is posting wins. I'm confident you're bad at scouting--so bad that you don't do it more than once or twice each game--and that your macro needs some work (whose doesn't?), but by looking at wins, I can't tell for sure what is giving you ZvT problems. Where are those stim timing replays? You said you're afraid of 2-base stim, so show me why. Not even going to look at the other games in the OP, I bet they're also wins.
I posted 2 wins in the entire thing (well, 3, but I was very clearly dead in the ST game because of the same stim timing I was asking about, the terran just let me live for some reason), 1 of which was intended to show what a really clean game looks like for me, the other shows really well my problems in midgame with larvae decision making and lategame and really should be a loss (I won with 4 broodlords , no bank and long distance mining against a terran floating almost 6k, obviously should have been a loss, too). I got hit by 2 base stim in most of those games as well. Also, in game 2 you said I won when I lost (hence a 5 minute game), so I don't know if you're just not paying attention or what :/
Sorry, thought he gg'd in game 2, not you. Either way, game was far from over, and I feel that my advice on how to fight bunker rushes still applies.
You did not get hit by 2base stim all-in. You got hit with standard (late, really) marine tank, or marine medivac, that was weak, and you crushed it in games 1 and 3. If you really want advice about those, it would be "add banelings", as I already said.
Your scouting is your problem. I don't really care where you find yourself lategame, I know you're not scouting early, mid-, or lategame, and instead you're just building what you think should work. You are making decisions more or less blind throughout the game, and that's why you're feeling lost as to what to do. Your drone/ling balance seems fine for blind play. I took an hour to go through your games and analyze them, and I am sitting here telling you that you never scout. Talk to me about scouting, or at least tell me why you think scouting isn't a problem in your case.
Please stop sandbagging those of us who are trying to help. Thus far, your replies feel mostly like "you didn't watch replays" or "I did that, didn't you see?" or "you're not paying attention". You haven't really discussed some of the feedback, you've dismissed it. And I am being blunt and as rude as I can because I've had that same attitude towards sc2, and towards a lot of other things, and I never saw significant improvement in anything until I dropped it and started really listening to people, humbly and earnestly.
So let me tell you one more time: you are not scouting.
EDIT: I am going to watch that stim timing game. I am guessing you make nothing but lings, and don't have banelings, and with the late upgrade timing you have, I bet you will have 0-0 lings that don't fare well against stim and shield marines.Last edit: 2012-04-06 13:46:11 |
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| dronefarm United States. April 06 2012 14:02. Posts 260 | Profile Blog # |
On April 06 2012 13:43 6xFPCs wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 13:15 dronefarm wrote:
On April 06 2012 12:32 6xFPCs wrote:
And your other problem is posting wins. I'm confident you're bad at scouting--so bad that you don't do it more than once or twice each game--and that your macro needs some work (whose doesn't?), but by looking at wins, I can't tell for sure what is giving you ZvT problems. Where are those stim timing replays? You said you're afraid of 2-base stim, so show me why. Not even going to look at the other games in the OP, I bet they're also wins.
I posted 2 wins in the entire thing (well, 3, but I was very clearly dead in the ST game because of the same stim timing I was asking about, the terran just let me live for some reason), 1 of which was intended to show what a really clean game looks like for me, the other shows really well my problems in midgame with larvae decision making and lategame and really should be a loss (I won with 4 broodlords , no bank and long distance mining against a terran floating almost 6k, obviously should have been a loss, too). I got hit by 2 base stim in most of those games as well. Also, in game 2 you said I won when I lost (hence a 5 minute game), so I don't know if you're just not paying attention or what :/
Sorry, thought he gg'd in game 2, not you. Either way, game was far from over, and I feel that my advice on how to fight bunker rushes still applies. You did not get hit by 2base stim all-in. You got hit with standard (late, really) marine tank, or marine medivac, that was weak, and you crushed it in games 1 and 3. If you really want advice about those, it would be "add banelings", as I already said. Your scouting is your problem. I don't really care where you find yourself lategame, I know you're not scouting early, mid-, or lategame, and instead you're just building what you think should work. You are making decisions more or less blind throughout the game, and that's why you're feeling lost as to what to do. Your drone/ling balance seems fine for blind play. I took an hour to go through your games and analyze them, and I am sitting here telling you that you never scout. Talk to me about scouting, or at least tell me why you think scouting isn't a problem in your case.Please stop sandbagging those of us who are trying to help. Thus far, your replies feel mostly like "you didn't watch replays" or "I did that, didn't you see?" or "you're not paying attention". You haven't really discussed some of the feedback, you've dismissed it. And I am being blunt and as rude as I can because I've had that same attitude towards sc2, and towards a lot of other things, and I never saw significant improvement in anything until I dropped it and started really listening to people, humbly and earnestly. So let me tell you one more time: you are not scouting. EDIT: I am going to watch that stim timing game. I am guessing you make nothing but lings, and don't have banelings, and with the late upgrade timing you have, I bet you will have 0-0 lings that don't fare well against stim and shield marines.
I didn't say I got hit by it in every game, but replays 4 and 5 (and I believe 6) I took a lot of damage from a stim timing (one with a cute BF hellion elevator thing). I never said I didn't have a problem with scouting, but I take offense to someone saying "you must be bragging because the rep I watched was you winning", so I said so. I am listening to people, but if someone tells me "hey, overmake lings early" and I overmake lings in every replay, there's nothing to take from that tbh, if someone tells you something you're already doing in the example games, what am I supposed to take from that? Probably that that person didn't watch. As you said I don't scout very well, because most zergs that people base their play on don't scout very well (not to say that they aren't making great reads, but zergs like Ret, Stephano, and Idra don't scout a lot. I don't understand why they do a lot of what they do, so I just try to copy the stuff they make and try to mimic their general game look. I don't know what I'm scouting for (and how to scout in most cases in early game because I'm contained by hellions) which is why I created this thread
I'll try to fit banelings into the build, but I feel like I never see them in games I watch, so I don't know how to budget that extra gas.Last edit: 2012-04-06 14:05:12 |
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| 6xFPCs United States. April 06 2012 14:11. Posts 357 | Profile # |
quick notes on game 5 (stim):+ Show Spoiler +
yeah, you had unupgraded lings against stim-shield marines and marauders. you eventually push it back, but that's half because 1-1 finishes. flooding lings not a bad thing, i think you were in less trouble than you thought, you were ok on injects and would have pushed him back slowly (since he had no medivacs).
saturate your third.
he's outexpanded you. well, in the sense that it's 3 base to 3 base.
some micro issues with that frontal attack. just let the infested terrans finish shooting up the wall if necessary, don't funnel in lings, and certainly keep infestors back. why didn't you wait for ultras before attacking?
3-3 lings against 2-0 bio. no way he can win if you keep building ling-infestor-ultra. yeah, eventually he can't keep trading, even with the econ from earlier.
Seems like my prediction was correct; your upgrades are too late to handle the stim timing. You probably want banelings, to be safe. This is a two-base stim attack at 10:30. So with this late of a push, you could get your dual evo earlier, you can handle it with pure ling if you have 1-1 to his 0-0. You definitely want that macro hatch earlier, you're so set on lings and yet you can't even spend all your money. Two macro hatches is not out of the question; of course, you'd rather have a fast third instead of one of those.
I really don't know what else to tell you. You basically sit around, not scouting and not pressuring, until 3-3 and ultras, then kill people with ling-infestor-ultra. No one can stop it, because they don't upgrade (this guy held out pretty well because he upgraded, though late). Hell, you could pump lings and they might not be able to stop you. This game he out-econ'd you, but took too much damage from your pseudo-deathball. You remade, and he couldn't stop the second one.
EDIT: Didn't mean to hit post.
So. Put down that macro hatch ASAP, take third when you can. Your midgame timings seemed ok, you went upgrades then lair. If you see the stim timing coming, similar to this game, don't make a lair, put down a baneling nest as soon as you suspect it. Engage on creep, slow banelings are terrible otherwise.
Lategame, you seem to do fine. Watch your engagements, ultras can be wonky. Otherwise, you seem fine (in this game). Your broodlord play seems even more sluggish, make sure you're constantly besieging him with those floating war machines, it will force him to fight you. I don't see any issues with your lategame, you take more bases, remember to add drones, etc. (this from the Antiga game, I think game 3).
I still think your scouting is the biggest issue. Did you even realize he took a third this game? After your drone scout, you don't see inside his main again. Ever. You never look at your overlord near his third, you never glance over there after it dies either. You have almost zero information, besides what his army is, and only then when he's walking through your front door. At the end of the game, all you have seen of his bases is pretty much just the front of his natural. This is why you don't realize he's doing a stim push until he's on creep, you don't scout. Could that be why you're not prepared for it?
I don't know what else to tell you. You could also macro better, but I'm afraid to say that because you might just dismiss that piece of advice, too.Last edit: 2012-04-06 14:21:01 |
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| 6xFPCs United States. April 06 2012 14:51. Posts 357 | Profile # |
You're still busy arguing with the advice.
On April 06 2012 14:02 dronefarm wrote:
I never said I didn't have a problem with scouting, but I take offense to someone saying "you must be bragging because the rep I watched was you winning", so I said so.
The problem with posting replays of wins is that they're not nearly as helpful. The other problem is exactly what he called you out on. I don't care whether you're bragging or not, of course. The proper thing to do is post losses, because those are assuredly cases where you could do with some help.
On April 06 2012 14:02 dronefarm wrote:
I am listening to people, but if someone tells me "hey, overmake lings early" and I overmake lings in every replay, there's nothing to take from that tbh, if someone tells you something you're already doing in the example games, what am I supposed to take from that? Probably that that person didn't watch.
He said to overmake and then use them to pressure the front and control the map. You overmake and sit around. I feel like in every case where someone said something, you found a reason to not listen. Although in this case, it does sound like he didn't watch the replay. But if they explicitly say they didn't watch, just report them.
On April 06 2012 14:02 dronefarm wrote:
As you said I don't scout very well, because most zergs that people base their play on don't scout very well (not to say that they aren't making great reads, but zergs like Ret, Stephano, and Idra don't scout a lot. I don't understand why they do a lot of what they do, so I just try to copy the stuff they make and try to mimic their general game look. I don't know what I'm scouting for (and how to scout in most cases in early game because I'm contained by hellions) which is why I created this thread
Ret, Stephano, and Idra lose when they don't scout. Lots of zergs lose when they don't scout. Stephano lost to Polt's hellion-marauder attack at MLG (think I have this right) because he didn't scout and felt ok playing blind. I don't know what games you're watching, but pro zergs scout religiously. The difference is that they get a ton of information from subtle cues, so it may not LOOK like they're always scouting, but they may be able to deduce builds just from seeing when the natural CC lands, how many marines are at the front, etc. We lesser beings have to see more to get the same amount of info. Their general game look is often quite reactive, too. They may get fast four gases to get a spire, but you'd better think about why they're getting those gases (spire), and why they want the spire (tank heavy? map good for muta harass?). Don't blindly copy builds, think about them. I say this because you seem to have solid builds, so it's time to start thinking. If you prefer well-structured builds and dictating the flow of the game based on your build, I suggest switching to Protoss.
Scouting against hellions isn't impossible, nor even that difficult. Speedlings can split and survive a shot or two, and more reliably, you will almost always have an overlord in position to suicide into the main. If you're dying from lack of info, you do what you have to to get that info. Even just seeing that he's aggressively using marines to deny overlords, or lings, can suggest an all-in or something else sneaky (e.g. cloaked banshees).
On April 06 2012 14:02 dronefarm wrote:
I'll try to fit banelings into the build, but I feel like I never see them in games I watch, so I don't know how to budget that extra gas.
Don't try to fit it in, just remember it as a reactive option you have. Put down a baneling nest if you see lots of marines, or suspect lots of marines. And--I mean this in a non-offensive way--you are floating gas in most of the games, you should have enough for a few banes. Even 4-6 will give you the tool you need to run over a stim timing. You don't even need to build banelings, just having the nest can give you the option, should you see him leaving his base with way more marines than you thought he had. |
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| Aalo United States. April 07 2012 16:40. Posts 33 | Profile # |
Should always remember, and as much as it goes against how i feel playstyle wise (i absolutely HATE making a building i might not use) you don't need to morph a single baneling until the push is coming toward you. With proper map vision (with Xel'naga tower control/overlord spread) you should be able to see when the terran is moving out.
So if you scout and suspect a rather large Marine push/timing you can place the baneling nest, without spending any extra gas in banes until the Terran begins to push out. |
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| PhilipScrewdriver New Zealand. April 07 2012 19:05. Posts 28 | Profile Blog # |
| You want to be scouting midgame, you want to see if he is still building hellions or into building tanks or pure marine medic. With hellions and marines, a basic ling force un mass should be able to deal with it until festors come out, with marine tank force or a marine drop/mass marine play, you want to get that baneling nest up. Although the the MU has turned into infestor ling, lots of pro players still drop their baneling nest while their lair is coming up to stop these weird marine/tank timings. |
| | "When in doubt, run out then press 4, S, ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ." |
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