| Xanbatou United States. April 06 2012 10:12. Posts 786 | Profile Blog # |
I've been watching some pro ZvT's lately, and I've noticed something that seems strange to me. I've seen other Zergs do it, but I noticed DRG do it in the following games:
http://sc2casts.com/cast7990-Dongraegu-vs-TSLHeart-Best-of-3-MLG-Winter-Championship-Winners-Semifinal
Although DRG scouted the terran going for a ton of marines, he still opted to get a spire. Why does he choose that tech? Wouldn't it be smarter to go infestors since there are so many marines out? Or does one go mutas to combat the eventual drop play and to take advantage of the damage stim can do because of the late medivacs?
Even if, at the pro level, going mutas vs that type of play is a good idea, is it also a good idea at lower levels of play?Last edit: 2012-04-06 10:20:25 |
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| [AG]AggressionGaming Canada. April 06 2012 10:50. Posts 43 | Profile # |
| Lately I've found that terrans have gotten really good at splitting marines... So infestors are kinda useless when you run out of fungals. At least mutalisk are good at harassing. |
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 lorkac United States. April 06 2012 10:53. Posts 2297 | Profile Blog # |
Mutalisks are proactive, infestors (in general) are reactive.
You don't get Mutalisks to stop a certain unit composition. You get mutalisks to dictate tempo and map control.
For a real life example--take the practice of opening doors for a woman.
You open the door for a woman in order for her to think you're nice--not because you feel that she is too physically weak to open the door. You, with your door opening, are attempting to dictate your role in the relationship you are forging with that specific woman. You then reinforce this by not opening doors for others except for the people that the woman expects you to open it to. Once again, you're doing that in order to communicate and dictate your role in the relationship. Mutalisks are the same way. No, Mutalisks do not counter marines much like girls don't really give a crap who opens a door (it's just a fucking door) what matters it what environment the action (or unit choice) creates. |
| | By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography |
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| GGzerG United States. April 06 2012 11:01. Posts 3526 | Profile Blog # |
On April 06 2012 10:53 lorkac wrote:
Mutalisks are proactive, infestors (in general) are reactive.
You don't get Mutalisks to stop a certain unit composition. You get mutalisks to dictate tempo and map control.
For a real life example--take the practice of opening doors for a woman.
You open the door for a woman in order for her to think you're nice--not because you feel that she is too physically weak to open the door. You, with your door opening, are attempting to dictate your role in the relationship you are forging with that specific woman. You then reinforce this by not opening doors for others except for the people that the woman expects you to open it to. Once again, you're doing that in order to communicate and dictate your role in the relationship. Mutalisks are the same way. No, Mutalisks do not counter marines much like girls don't really give a crap who opens a door (it's just a fucking door) what matters it what environment the action (or unit choice) creates.
... Wow I am sorry but that is the most ridiculous example when trying to explain why he went mutalisks instead of infestors, I would imagine he went mutalisks instead of infestors either A) because he was thinking that he couldn't use solely infestors to stop the marines because of marine splitting or he wasn't at the point in the game where making pure infestors to stop marines wasn't logical, or B) because like he said with his strange metaphor, you can deny drops and harass / do damage to the terran a lot easier with mutalisks.
Also I think that it is generally smarter to open with mutalisks then transition into infestor play, I honestly just don't think the example the poster above gave was a very good explanation. Gl hf |
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| Zennith United States. April 06 2012 11:06. Posts 784 | Profile Blog # | |
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| LighT. Canada. April 06 2012 11:08. Posts 2980 | Profile # |
| Mutalisks are countered by marines but the poster is correct, they are proactive units than reactive. mutalisks allow the terran to play defensively for a small window of time. and cannot easily move out from it. their timing attacks do get thrown off. Infestors cannot assume this role because they have poor mobility and pure support units. Zerg in this time are given an opportunity to react and make the proper counter while scouting, harassing, and giving opportunity to snipe key buildings and prepare for the inevitable push |
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| Spekulatius Germany. April 06 2012 11:10. Posts 2140 | Profile # |
| I still don't get the "metaphor". Last edit: 2012-04-06 11:10:59 |
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| lorkac United States. April 06 2012 11:17. Posts 2297 | Profile Blog # |
On April 06 2012 11:10 Spekulatius wrote:
I still don't get the "metaphor".
The reason you open doors for a girl is not because the girl cares whether you open doors or not.
Much like making Mutalisks after scouting marines has nothing at all to do with the fact that you scouted marines.
You open doors for women to dictate how your relationship will be.
You start mutalisk production to dictate how the tempo of the game will be. |
| | By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography |
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| vBr Sweden. April 06 2012 11:22. Posts 175 | Profile # |
On April 06 2012 10:50 [AG]AggressionGaming wrote:
Lately I've found that terrans have gotten really good at splitting marines... So infestors are kinda useless when you run out of fungals. At least mutalisk are good at harassing.
You gotto be kidding, perhaps you can split alright if you are in a sieged position but other than that there is no way. Then you arent doing it right*. During a macro game, you will catch the terran several times with, so called, money fungals and if you arent, then you need to correct that |
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| zJayy962 April 06 2012 12:00. Posts 1313 | Profile Blog # |
On April 06 2012 11:22 vBr wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 10:50 [AG]AggressionGaming wrote:
Lately I've found that terrans have gotten really good at splitting marines... So infestors are kinda useless when you run out of fungals. At least mutalisk are good at harassing.
You gotto be kidding, perhaps you can split alright if you are in a sieged position but other than that there is no way. Then you arent doing it right*. During a macro game, you will catch the terran several times with, so called, money fungals and if you arent, then you need to correct that
A good terran will never let you get "money fungals" and if they do they fucked up and it wasn't some amazing play by the zerg. Just cautious scanning and moving after infestors are out will easily stop game changing fungals from happening. |
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| scph Korea (South). April 06 2012 12:04. Posts 254 | Profile # |
| Weird metaphor, but, yes, getting the spire tech > mutas when you see mass marines goes against this "unit composition countering" logic, but by playing correctly it does force a certain playstyle that can be advantageous. Just massing Infestors isn't always better; they're expensive, limited, and fragile. Mutas, while expensive and fragile, are exceedingly useful. You just have to make sure you can survive the things terran can do to you, ie: Having 2000/2000 worth of mutas and 1000/1000 worth of lings/infestors instead of purely 3000/3000 mutas to defend marine medivac pushes, drops, etc. |
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| Ziggitz United States. April 06 2012 16:23. Posts 321 | Profile # |
Ling Infestor can't really assault a siege tank line effectively unless you massively outnumber the Terran. Mutas force missile turrets which become useless against broodlords. Muta ling gives you the opportunity to run by and fly to mineral lines as counter attacks which pins the Terran back. Muta ling bane can quickly engage unseiged tanks with marines and if it goes badly the Zerg can pull out with the mutas, the bulk of his investment in the midgame, a a modest potential loss for a huge potential payoff. The mutas can also pick off reinforcements if they can get behind an entrenched Terran's army.
On maps where it's relatively easy to counter drops, apply pressure by air, and the rush distance is long enough to get behind the Terran's pushing army mutas are really good, like on shakuras. On this kind of map infestor ling is a serious liablility, where lings cannot flank easily through a narrow center choke and the Terran doesn't have to spread himself thin to take more than 3 bases. In this situation you cannot push until ultras or broodlords with ling infestor by which point the Terran will be able to max out with 4 safe bases with 4 mules at a time and you'll be hopelessly behind because you want to absorb a couple attacks and max out before the Terran or keep him to 3 bases against your 4 or 2 bases against your 3.
Look at those positions on metalopolis, There are two narrow chokes to get to the Terran's side of the map. The ramp to the third can be walled off with raxes, marine drops can come from close air positions easily, and mutas can easily harrass the Terran's main if he does not leave enough behind. Mutas can help keep a large spread of bases safe from drops and can regroup with lings and banes to hit a Terran as he tries to cross the map. That means that the Zerg can hit a critical mass of mutas, or switch it up to hive tech with infestors and broods with all that extra gas.
Infestors need exposed thirds that can be countered by lings, meaning the base is exposed, not wallable with raxes and a wide open center so you can actually get there. Metalopolis offers none of these, it's basically the opposite of dual sight. On metalopolis it makes perfect sense to use muta ling bane over infestor ling on it. |
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| dreamsmasher April 06 2012 16:29. Posts 735 | Profile # |
| i set the tempo for the relationship by not opening doors. |
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| lorkac United States. April 06 2012 18:10. Posts 2297 | Profile Blog # |
On April 06 2012 16:29 dreamsmasher wrote:
i set the tempo for the relationship by not opening doors.
The door/Muta doesn't matter. You could set the tempo of the relationship by choosing to not bath, choosing to bathe, have a car, juggle, whatever--what matters is outcome and interaction, not unit/action choice. |
| | By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography |
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| MeatyThud United Kingdom. April 06 2012 18:37. Posts 14 | Profile # |
Just look at banelings.
One minute they're opening the door, the next minute they're splashing goo in your face.
That's what I call setting the tempo.Last edit: 2012-04-06 18:40:36 |
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| decaf Austria. April 06 2012 19:20. Posts 1698 | Profile # |
On April 06 2012 10:50 [AG]AggressionGaming wrote:
Lately I've found that terrans have gotten really good at splitting marines... So infestors are kinda useless when you run out of fungals. At least mutalisk are good at harassing.
Splitting vs infestors on creep is almost impossible if you don't do it preemptively. Infestors have a range of 9 (believe it or not) plus half the fungal radius so a mere 10 and are sick fast on creep and if you didn't clean it right before they can even see your position. Infestors have more fungal range than you have sight range (at least I'm pretty sure it works like that) so no, splitting vs infestors is not that easy - especially if you got caught once 
I don't know what map they were playing on, but I noticed DRG bases his decision on that most of the time.Last edit: 2012-04-06 19:21:09 |
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| TangSC Canada. April 07 2012 00:30. Posts 1614 | Profile Blog # |
| That was a sick game, thanks for posting it. I've heard IdrA say that he prefers to go mutalisks in ZvT because he feels he gets better use of his multitasking skills, and since DRG is one of the best multitaskers in SC2, it's probably one of the main reasons he uses them. |
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| nath United States. April 07 2012 00:39. Posts 1315 | Profile Blog # |
On April 06 2012 11:17 lorkac wrote:The reason you open doors for a girl is not because the girl cares whether you open doors or not. Much like making Mutalisks after scouting marines has nothing at all to do with the fact that you scouted marines. You open doors for women to dictate how your relationship will be. You start mutalisk production to dictate how the tempo of the game will be.
if you need to explain it this much then its not a good metaphor |
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| Serelitz Netherlands. April 07 2012 00:43. Posts 1807 | Profile # |
I remember idra doing this at an MLG vs Bomber, where bomber went marines only on metalopolis and Idra still went mutas.
I'm not good enough to theorycraft about the reasons behind it but this isn't completely new. |
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| lorkac United States. April 07 2012 00:52. Posts 2297 | Profile Blog # |
On April 07 2012 00:39 nath wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 11:17 lorkac wrote:
On April 06 2012 11:10 Spekulatius wrote:
I still don't get the "metaphor".
The reason you open doors for a girl is not because the girl cares whether you open doors or not. Much like making Mutalisks after scouting marines has nothing at all to do with the fact that you scouted marines. You open doors for women to dictate how your relationship will be. You start mutalisk production to dictate how the tempo of the game will be.
if you need to explain it this much then its not a good metaphor
I had assumed that people knew how to treat women equally. I was obviously wrong and had to explain it. It was my mistake that there are people on TL who doesn't realize the point of opening doors for women. |
| | By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography |
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