Rulings made by Players or Admins?

In recent events, there have been a few cases in which the players have had input on various things and game outcomes that they probably shouldn't have any input it.

I think its about time that tournaments, especially the large ones, really move towards a system of the admins or referees actually dictating and enforcing decisions without asking for, or even allowing any player input on the situation.

We've had a few things come up semi-recently:

1) The Awesome LAN this game from 2010 must have somehow failed and dropped a player.
Some comments from people were that the player who may have been losing should have 'declined' a re-game.
I think in these cases that it should be made clear to everyone that the two players or teams in this case do not even have the Option to decline a the re-game, nor should they have the option to decline any win awarded when they think there should have been a regame.

2) A situation arose between two players where one player made a colossal game-losing mistake in the very early game. The player benefitting from this mistake actually offered a re-game, which was accepted, and the game was simply re-started.
I can't think of any reason why Admins would ever allow this to happen. Players should not be allowed to nullify the result of a match, or decide on a re-game unless there's actually an out-of-game problem requiring it. The players again just should not have input here.

3) Numerous times at large tournaments both online and LAN, players have been late for matches beyond an allowed period. And according to many players, time and time again Admins ASK the player is they want to take a win, take a walkover or wait longer.
Again, I feel under no circumstance should the player have any input in this ruling. They should not be able to decline the free win, or extend the waiting period. Only the admins should be able to make that decision. They should then simply inform the player the result.

There are certainly other similar situations, but I think these are the most commonly seen.
I think it is really important for tournaments and leagues to start enforcing this, also for 3 main reasons:

Firstly, it will remove any burden on the player in having to balance winning vs. managing their reputation and image.
Any time a player is 'asked' what to do in a situation, at least some portion of the community will think the player should opt for the most 'manner' response and decline any win or advantage offered to them.
The player should never have to decide between winning and looking nice. The admins should be enforcing whatever the rule is, without even allowing that input. Doing so means the player can never look like he's bad manner for 'accepting' the decision.

Second, There are situations where other players are affected by another matchup that doesn't involve them. A player who is 0-3 in some group play may be 'manner' and allow a re-game or rule violation and therefore negatively affect another player who isn't involved, but who's placement will depend on the outcome of that match.
In these cases the player may either legitimately not even care...or in extreme cases, you may have two teammates or friends playing, and while they won't actually throw the match in game, may decide to allow regames or ignore rules.

Third, is just a matter of appearance of legitimacy. If you score in a hockey game, you can't ever say 'just don't count that one', you can't say 'oh he didn't mean to trip me, take away his penalty' the 2nd baseman can't tell the Umpire 'oh well he was actually safe' and reverse the call. In any other sport, the mere idea that a player or coach would be allowed to talk to an official and alter a rule call would be blasphemy. You can yell and scream at that referee, but if he called that a hand ball, its a hand ball.

This is not the first time this has been mentioned, But I am surpised it is still happening 2 years into this game.

Is there any real reason why this is something not being implemented by tournaments and leagues?

It don't think its some big issue that is ruining eSports or something, but its to me such a clear cut and easy to fix issue, I'm just not getting why it still happens.

Any thoughts?

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HeeroFX United States. April 09 2012 06:45. Posts 1912

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should be made by the Refs, rules should be on paper before the tournament events, for the Refs to follow.

Facultyadjutant Sweden. April 09 2012 06:46. Posts 1157

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Players should be able to talk to each other if they want to before judgement

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MadJack Peru. April 09 2012 06:48. Posts 270

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On April 09 2012 06:31 EnderSword wrote:
at least some portion of the community will think the player should opt for the most 'manner' response and decline any win or advantage offered to them

Then its the "community" you speak of, the one who is wrong, if the player comes lates he is already being bad manner towards the punctual player, so whenever the punctual player makes the decision to take the win accordint to tourney rules, if there is someone that thinks thats being bad manner, they should actually revise their sense of morale.

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xiaofan United States. April 09 2012 06:55. Posts 502

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i dont see a problem if it doesnt bother the opposing player. if it does and he still says, "it's okay" then that is his own problem.

teamhozac April 09 2012 06:56. Posts 404

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Nothing was worse than DeMuslim purposely dropping games to Idra and Axslav in the ESWC 2011 qualifiers. He should have been banned from any US/CA tourneys for a year for that bs, hell the entire team should have been fined really

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Last edit: 2012-04-09 06:57:13

SnuggleZhenya April 09 2012 06:59. Posts 545

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All decisions should be made by the referees/admins and that is it.

You'll never get better being an angry nerd sitting alone in your room.

Bkennedy United States. April 09 2012 07:04. Posts 262

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On April 09 2012 06:56 teamhozac wrote:
Nothing was worse than DeMuslim purposely dropping games to Idra and Axslav in the ESWC 2011 qualifiers. He should have been banned from any US/CA tourneys for a year for that bs, hell the entire team should have been fined really

This is irrelevant to the topic, beyond stupid, and subjective.

OT: Yes, I agree 100%. Players shouldnt have to make decisions.

Mordiford April 09 2012 07:05. Posts 4107

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Players should not be consulted, there is no way to get a non-biased response from them or their managers.

Officials should make the decisions entirely on their own. What happens at MLGs is absolutely ridiculous. Asking a player if they want a free win over a late player puts them in a really awkward position where they have to choose between their image and their potential success. This should never be the case.

EnderSword Canada. April 09 2012 07:09. Posts 546

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On April 09 2012 06:55 xiaofan wrote:
i dont see a problem if it doesnt bother the opposing player. if it does and he still says, "it's okay" then that is his own problem.

Isn't that literally the definition of the problem?

You are taking Player A's rule violation, and making it Player B's problem simply by asking him.

This has come up on ITG and SoTG several times and several different players have said 'The admin asked me if I wanted the walkover...and I Didn't want to Look like a Dick by accepting the walkover.'
Almost universally the player opinion has been that they feel it is wrong they are being asked the question.

Of course, a ton of the community is always 'wrong'...but so what? It's your opinion the guy who is late is BM, but that's not everyone's opinion. It may literally not be true, the guy could be stuck in an elevator, his internet connection could be dead, etc.. but even if it is completely and totally the other guy's fault...the player taking the walkover will still be called lame by a big chuink of people, every time. And it literally doesn't not matter one tiny little bit if those people are wrong. If they for any reason, rational or irrational, decide they aren't a fan of Player B anymore, then that's potential sponsors, stream revenues, fan base, team attractiveness etc...
Can you imagine how low someone's popularity would sink if he 'Accepted' a walkover over MKP in a semi final because he was off getting his hair dyed?
What purpose is served by them even being consulted? If you agree the offending player broke a rulke...then apply the consequence...why consult the other guy?

Players should be able to talk to each other if they want to before judgement

Again, to what end? in what sport can players over-rule the officials?

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Doso Germany. April 09 2012 07:09. Posts 734

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I was admin for professional Warcraft 3 leagues like the WC3L and the German ESL Pro Series in Starcraft 2. Why should I not listen to the players? If the player that disced clearly states that the game was over and he doesn't want to regame - why should I overrule that? If both players agree that they want to replay the game, why the hell should I give the win to one of the players?

In the end, no matter what you do people *WILL* flame the admins/refs to death. You enfore the rules, you are inflexible jerk, if you don't you are a moron. Go figure why I quit :o)

Najda United States. April 09 2012 07:12. Posts 1767

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On April 09 2012 07:09 Doso wrote:
I was admin for professional Warcraft 3 leagues like the WC3L and the German ESL Pro Series in Starcraft 2. Why should I not listen to the players? If the player that disced clearly states that the game was over and he doesn't want to regame - why should I overrule that? If both players agree that they want to replay the game, why the hell should I give the win to one of the players?

In the end, no matter what you do people *WILL* flame the admins/refs to death. You enfore the rules, you are inflexible jerk, if you don't you are a moron. Go figure why I quit :o)

The problem with listening to the players is that they could be feeling pressure to answer a certain way even though they may or might not agree with it.

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Doso Germany. April 09 2012 07:14. Posts 734

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And that is a problem because... ?

If I can reslove 50%+ of those problems by simply asking the players, a little "pressure" is the least of my problems. They are getting paid for being professionals - handling pressure is part of the job.

Last edit: 2012-04-09 07:16:28

EnderSword Canada. April 09 2012 07:22. Posts 546

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I actually should have addressed this in the OP, because its a very big distinction.

If one player claims He LOST the game, then yes of course the Admin should listen.

That's because that opponent merely verbally said 'GG' - It's the IdrA rule.

"No matter how far ahead you actually might be, you as a player always have the right to say GG and resign."

Saying 'I Concede' to an Admin, means you concede.

But going to the player and saying 'Should we give your opponent a re-game?' isn't the same thing at all.

You can say 'I lost' whenever you want, you shouldn't ever be asked to say 'He Lost' so even when both players 'agree' to a regame, one of those player might think he was ahead and he just doesn't want to be seen as difficult or BM by insisting the result be judged.

So you'd actually prefer to kind of bully a player and rely on them being professional, instead of you being professional

I'm being glib there, but I'm sure this is the motivation. The admin wanting to just avoid the problem by hoping the other player caves in under peer pressure. I guess I don't think that should be an option. Again, you just never see a ref walk up to a goalie and say 'Well, do you think it went in?'

Last edit: 2012-04-09 07:26:53

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Mordiford April 09 2012 07:26. Posts 4107

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On April 09 2012 07:14 Doso wrote:
And that is a problem because... ?

If I can reslove 50%+ of those problems by simply asking the players, a little "pressure" is the least of my problems. They are getting paid for being professionals - handling pressure is part of the job.

But you can also actually resolve 100% of those problems without consulting the players. The player's input will always be biased and it puts them in a very unfair position where they have to choose between potentially harming their image and harming their success in a tournament.

A player's only goal within a tournament should be a win, everything else should be in the hands of the organizers and the officials.

TBone- April 09 2012 07:29. Posts 1746

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All rulings should be made by admins in all circumstances. Competitive players will almost always try and benefit themselves. They are there to compete and to win, not be a white knight. Which is completely reasonable, but is also why they should never, ever, be making the calls.

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Odecey Norway. April 09 2012 07:33. Posts 17

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Point by point:
1. I believe this kind of call is up to the admins, unless the player at the disatvantage chooses to forfeit, in which case the match should go to the opposing player.
2. It's called sportsmanship. If a player makes an uncharacteristic mistake in the early stages of the game, and (s)he requests a regame, I see no reason why the opposing player should not be within their right to oblige them.
3. To invalidate a result because someone didn't hear their name called is completely unnecessary, and should be avoided. In my opinion, the player who arrived on time should be able to extend the grace period if they wish, seing as it's them it's affecting the most.

To not let the players judge for themselves shows blatant distrust of their integrity. We should be able to expect that the players will act with fairness in mind when these decisions are made, and not second guess their reasons from our home computers. If we can't do that, there' something wrong with us, not with the rules, or the players' behaviour.

To give a counterexample to your last point:If a player gets hurt through no fault of the opposing team in soccer. custom dictates that the opposing team kicks the ball off field to stop play, giving the hurt player's team the throw-in. Does this invalidate the result? Of course not, but it shows that the players' know the result only matters as long as they adhere to Fair Play.

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CakeSauc3 United States. April 09 2012 07:35. Posts 307

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Players shouldn't be involved. Do you ever watch the NBA? When the ball goes out of bounds, both teams point in opposite directions and try to tell the ref that it's their ball - even if it was TOTALLY obvious who it was who touched it last, they still favor themselves. Don't trust competitive players with these decisions - it just doesn't work.

Mordiford April 09 2012 07:44. Posts 4107

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On April 09 2012 07:33 Odecey wrote:
Point by point:
1. I believe this kind of call is up to the admins, unless the player at the disatvantage chooses to forfeit, in which case the match should go to the opposing player.
2. It's called sportsmanship. If a player makes an uncharacteristic mistake in the early stages of the game, and (s)he requests a regame, I see no reason why the opposing player should not be within their right to oblige them.
3. To invalidate a result because someone didn't hear their name called is completely unnecessary, and should be avoided. In my opinion, the player who arrived on time should be able to extend the grace period if they wish, seing as it's them it's affecting the most.

To not let the players judge for themselves shows blatant distrust of their integrity. We should be able to expect that the players will act with fairness in mind when these decisions are made, and not second guess their reasons from our home computers. If we can't do that, there' something wrong with us, not with the rules, or the players' behaviour.

To give a counterexample to your last point:If a player gets hurt through no fault of the opposing team in soccer. custom dictates that the opposing team kicks the ball off field to stop play, giving the hurt player's team the throw-in. Does this invalidate the result? Of course not, but it shows that the players' know the result only matters as long as they adhere to Fair Play.

This shouldn't be in the hands of the other player, this is actually akin to mild fixing and calls into question the results of the game based on decisions the players made outside of the game which should not be the case. A player should not be able to ask for a re-game barring hardware issues, and a player should not be able to offer a re-game because it's unnecessary.

Because then they get shit if they decide they don't want to extend the grace period. If you want to have the grace period extended across the board, that's one thing but leaving it in the hands of the players puts them in a very awkward spot.

A player should not be put in a position where they have to worry about looking like a dick for doing/not doing something relating to their opponent outside of a game.

Also, I have never heard of this in football. Why would you give the opposing team a free throw if their player hurt himself on his own? Just cause it's a nice gesture of "Hey, you fucked up, here's a hand-out". This makes no sense to me.

Last edit: 2012-04-09 07:46:17

EnderSword Canada. April 09 2012 07:52. Posts 546

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To give a counterexample to your last point:If a player gets hurt through no fault of the opposing team in soccer. custom dictates that the opposing team kicks the ball off field to stop play, giving the hurt player's team the throw-in. Does this invalidate the result? Of course not, but it shows that the players' know the result only matters as long as they adhere to Fair Play.

So someone reacts within the confines and rules of the game. Or do they literally throw out that game and decide to start it over?
If someone uncharacteristically misses a 10 yard field goal, you don't just yell 'Do Over!' and start it again. You could however just punt them back the ball.
Even good sportsmanship must occur in a way that functions within your ruleset. Phil Mikkelson can intentionally take a penalty stroke if his opponent was unfairly charged for one as well...but he can't give the player a Mulligan because he hit the ball wrong.
Yer allowed to do some stuff, and other stuff you can't do.

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