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| xDnDx May 29 2012 03:19. Posts 14 | Profile # |
| I've been trying out Puzzle's fast robo build and I like the style of play and it feels very safe, however, I find myself floating tons of gas early on in the game. I'm just not sure what to spend it on. I find myself making 12+sentries by the 12 min mark and still floating around 400 gas. Is there some sort of tech I should be getting earlier? I'm currently a platinum player so my macro is not the best, but I'm still astonished at the amount of gas I always seem to have leftover. |
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| Teoita Italy. May 29 2012 03:55. Posts 4252 | Profile Blog # |
On May 29 2012 03:19 xDnDx wrote:
I've been trying out Puzzle's fast robo build and I like the style of play and it feels very safe, however, I find myself floating tons of gas early on in the game. I'm just not sure what to spend it on. I find myself making 12+sentries by the 12 min mark and still floating around 400 gas. Is there some sort of tech I should be getting earlier? I'm currently a platinum player so my macro is not the best, but I'm still astonished at the amount of gas I always seem to have leftover.
A replay would be nice but it sounds like you are taking the gasses at your nat and third a bit too fast; try comparing your timings with the vods in the op. |
| | Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright. |
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| awwnuts07 United States. May 29 2012 03:55. Posts 604 | Profile Blog # |
On May 28 2012 16:34 NrGmonk wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 12:17 awwnuts07 wrote:
On May 28 2012 11:54 NrGmonk wrote:
On May 28 2012 11:49 awwnuts07 wrote:At Redbull Battlegrounds, MC used a build similar to HerO's stargate build, however, he did not get a robo until his third went down. Here's the odd thing, Stephano was unable to kill MC's third even though there were no Immortals in MC's army. Instead, the phoenixes cut down the overall dps by lifting roaches. I've seen HerO (and other Protosses) do this as well, but they also always have a robo pumping a few immortals. I was under the impression that having a robo is practically a requirement for holding off aggression. Would some of you masters level players mind sharing your insight? You can find the game here. http://www.redbullusa.com/cs/Satellite/en_US/001243035003218The game is under Match History MC vs Stephano on Cloud Kingdom LE
IIrc, in that game, Stephano didn't do his fast roach max, just did light roach/ling pressure while teching to infestor/broodlord.
So MC would've lost right then and there if it was the roach max? Did MC see something that let him know the roach max wasn't coming, because I don't think he ever scouted Stephano's main.
I watched the replay, and Stephano was actually going for his trademark roach play into MC's 3rd, but he realized he forgot roach speed and abandoned this strategy. This is why MC was so easily able to kill him later on. Stephano's build needs to do some damage or it will die to pushes like those. I'm also fairly sure that MC knew that Stephano would go for his roach push, because he scouted Stephano's gas count and roaches rallying to his 3rd. Seeing slow roaches doesn't preclude this push, because roach speed could potentially finish at any time. I wouldn't say MC definitely would have lost to the push, but that build that MC used seems very hard to defend. Keep in mind, however, that the map is rather good for defending and MC holds these pushes better than anyone else.
thanks for the analysis. I've been getting killed in my PvZs when I come up against the 12 min max, but then again, my mechanics are shit. Guess I'm just gonna have to keep grinding out games until I can hold it.
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| monk United States. May 29 2012 06:23. Posts 6826 | Profile Blog # |
On May 29 2012 03:19 xDnDx wrote:
I've been trying out Puzzle's fast robo build and I like the style of play and it feels very safe, however, I find myself floating tons of gas early on in the game. I'm just not sure what to spend it on. I find myself making 12+sentries by the 12 min mark and still floating around 400 gas. Is there some sort of tech I should be getting earlier? I'm currently a platinum player so my macro is not the best, but I'm still astonished at the amount of gas I always seem to have leftover.
One of the strengths of that build is not getting too many sentries, because you get them so early to build up energy. Puzzle never makes more than 6 and 12 is way too much. You do float a bit of gas with the Puzzle build though, but not enough for 6 extra sentries. Consider taking your natural gas later or your 3rd gas later. I also suspect that you have some macro problems if this indeed happens. But yea you need a replay. |
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| xDnDx May 29 2012 10:23. Posts 14 | Profile # |
Here's a replay of me making 10 sentries, I over estimated the exact number. My macro is fairly weak, but I eventually caught up with my gas income. However, it felt like I was recklessly using it on things I didn't need at the time. Is this just a perk of the build or was I misusing my gas income with poor macro?
http://drop.sc/188135 |
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| monk United States. May 29 2012 10:45. Posts 6826 | Profile Blog # |
On May 29 2012 10:23 xDnDx wrote:Here's a replay of me making 10 sentries, I over estimated the exact number. My macro is fairly weak, but I eventually caught up with my gas income. However, it felt like I was recklessly using it on things I didn't need at the time. Is this just a perk of the build or was I misusing my gas income with poor macro? http://drop.sc/188135
It's by far mostly poor macro. I watched the game and noticed that you have lots of skips in probe production and have very high chronoboost energy, which you should be heavily used on probes in this build. As a reference, you have 64 supply at 9 minutes while Puzzle has 77 supply. At 11 minutes, you have 83 supply with 750/700 in the bank while Puzzle has 111 supply. With poor probe production, your mineral income will hurt, while your gas income remains unaffected, because you always have 12 probes in gas. This is why you float so much gas when you attempt this build. |
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| xDnDx May 31 2012 08:54. Posts 14 | Profile # |
On May 29 2012 10:45 NrGmonk wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 10:23 xDnDx wrote:Here's a replay of me making 10 sentries, I over estimated the exact number. My macro is fairly weak, but I eventually caught up with my gas income. However, it felt like I was recklessly using it on things I didn't need at the time. Is this just a perk of the build or was I misusing my gas income with poor macro? http://drop.sc/188135
It's by far mostly poor macro. I watched the game and noticed that you have lots of skips in probe production and have very high chronoboost energy, which you should be heavily used on probes in this build. As a reference, you have 64 supply at 9 minutes while Puzzle has 77 supply. At 11 minutes, you have 83 supply with 750/700 in the bank while Puzzle has 111 supply. With poor probe production, your mineral income will hurt, while your gas income remains unaffected, because you always have 12 probes in gas. This is why you float so much gas when you attempt this build.
Thanks for the help. I've been trying to improve my probe production in the past few days and had this happen.
http://drop.sc/188937
In a game like this when would I want to get tech and a 4th base? I just kind of guessed the colossi timing and ended up not using them at all. Should I be getting them earlier? Also it seems like I'm getting an extra immortal rather than 2 stalkers by the 12 min mark, is that still okay or should I be favoring army size? Lastly, is it safe to have your army positioned the way i had it? I felt somewhat exposed and wasted a lot of FF on lings. Again, thanks for the guide(s)/build(s) and the feedback, really helps a lot. |
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| chestnutcc India. May 31 2012 09:26. Posts 429 | Profile # |
MC uses a variation of Puzzle's Robo centric macro build all through MLG Spring Arena 2 and Red Bull Arena. His games against DRG are good case studies of this build. The variation is that he spends his first trickle of gas on +1, warp gates and sentries before getting a robo, and adds the twilight quite late. In the games vs DRG, he gets a fast robo bay, which might be in response to seeing DRG get an infestation pit.
That being said, there needs to be some sort of pressure earlier than the one mentioned since its quite hard to punish zergs who drone straight to 90-100 drones and spine their bases v heavily. I've tried hitting an earlier timing with archons instead of colossi since I can move out and warp in 3-4 archons at the front, hitting about a minute or so before a colossi based push does. However, this sort of push has trouble against spine walls. Either way, heavy spining can delay the push long enough for broods to be out. Maybe take a quick fourth and keep chronos on probes? Speed prism dt zealot drops? |
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| monk United States. May 31 2012 09:48. Posts 6826 | Profile Blog # |
On May 31 2012 08:54 xDnDx wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 10:45 NrGmonk wrote:
On May 29 2012 10:23 xDnDx wrote:Here's a replay of me making 10 sentries, I over estimated the exact number. My macro is fairly weak, but I eventually caught up with my gas income. However, it felt like I was recklessly using it on things I didn't need at the time. Is this just a perk of the build or was I misusing my gas income with poor macro? http://drop.sc/188135
It's by far mostly poor macro. I watched the game and noticed that you have lots of skips in probe production and have very high chronoboost energy, which you should be heavily used on probes in this build. As a reference, you have 64 supply at 9 minutes while Puzzle has 77 supply. At 11 minutes, you have 83 supply with 750/700 in the bank while Puzzle has 111 supply. With poor probe production, your mineral income will hurt, while your gas income remains unaffected, because you always have 12 probes in gas. This is why you float so much gas when you attempt this build.
Thanks for the help. I've been trying to improve my probe production in the past few days and had this happen. http://drop.sc/188937In a game like this when would I want to get tech and a 4th base? I just kind of guessed the colossi timing and ended up not using them at all. Should I be getting them earlier? Also it seems like I'm getting an extra immortal rather than 2 stalkers by the 12 min mark, is that still okay or should I be favoring army size? Lastly, is it safe to have your army positioned the way i had it? I felt somewhat exposed and wasted a lot of FF on lings. Again, thanks for the guide(s)/build(s) and the feedback, really helps a lot.
I can't really say, because your opponent played very badly and because you had a relatively clean build, anything you would have done would have won. Get your transition tech(robo bay, templar archives) or prepare for a push(add gateways) as soon as you deem it's safe to, that is as soon as you know that dedicated roach push won't be coming. You should have known way in advance from scouting double evo and 6 gas. You definitely don't want your army in the position it was in at that timing, even if your opponent isn't going for the roach spam. Any pressure will cause you to lose more units than you would want. |
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| eeChiama Argentina. June 01 2012 12:10. Posts 38 | Profile Blog # |
First of all, GREAT job Monk. Simply put, awesome. Thank you :3
I've been looking for a guide on stargate openings and this is exactly what i needed!
Could you be able to provide some replays of the build? I find vod's extremely hard to study. I know that with the benchmarks I really have all I need, but it's always nice to see a player's PoV, so that you really get their reactions and stuff. |
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| Daimai Sweden. June 28 2012 05:07. Posts 589 | Profile Blog # |
Anyone has any idea how to deal with muta/ling/roach aggression with these builds?
Both macro pressure (pressure while taking a 4th and teching BL infestor) and allinish pressure where zerg stays on 3 base. |
| | I despise every terran player on this earth, and I hope there is a special place in hell saved for them. |
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| quillian United States. June 30 2012 04:04. Posts 278 | Profile # |
Glad someone ressurrected this, it's a great overview.
Monk: Since you said you've looked at a lot of variations including earlier thirds, I have a question for you, given the current state of PvZ.
Assuming the following:
1. You know zerg is going gasless 4:00 third
2. You are able to shoo away his few lings with zealots and take a third between 5:00 - 6:00
What is the best follow up tech path to hold the expected 7:00 roach warren and large scale roach aggression by 9:00?
Do you think it's possible to hold, assuming you can fend off light ling pressure until the third finishes?
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| monk United States. June 30 2012 04:14. Posts 6826 | Profile Blog # |
On June 28 2012 05:07 Daimai wrote:
Anyone has any idea how to deal with muta/ling/roach aggression with these builds?
Both macro pressure (pressure while taking a 4th and teching BL infestor) and allinish pressure where zerg stays on 3 base.
Don't really understand this question. You have to be way more specific.
On June 30 2012 04:04 quillian wrote:
Glad someone ressurrected this, it's a great overview.
Monk: Since you said you've looked at a lot of variations including earlier thirds, I have a question for you, given the current state of PvZ.
Assuming the following:
1. You know zerg is going gasless 4:00 third
2. You are able to shoo away his few lings with zealots and take a third between 5:00 - 6:00
What is the best follow up tech path to hold the expected 7:00 roach warren and large scale roach aggression by 9:00?
Do you think it's possible to hold, assuming you can fend off light ling pressure until the third finishes?
I think it depends on the map way more than anything. For example, on Antiga, any build you do will be vulnerable to a roach max, while on Entombed, you can get away with mostly anything. I think the best follow-up to a fast 3rd is definitely a very fast robo for immortals. Then, you can decide if you want an early twilight or a later twilight. I personally like robo expands better, as they offer you more immortals, more sentry energy, better scouting, and don't die to fast speedling aggression. |
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