| robinroz April 14 2012 22:31. Posts 9 | Profile # |
The GSL group format is great. Shorter than a round robin and easy to understand. However, the one thing that seems a little flawed is the fifth series between the loser of the Winners Match and the winner of the Losers Match. What happens when two players who have already met in a previous series meet again? As of right now, their previous score is ignored and the second series starts fresh at 0-0. I believe that this is unfair to the better player of the two and an extended series à la MLG should be implemented.
Let's have a look at a few such instances from the past two seasons where two players who had played each other before did meet. The scores listed are that of their first series, second series, and total score for the night. The advancing player is listed on the left. The better player is assumed to be the winner of the final score.
Highlighted in blue are nights where the better player came within a game of not advancing to the next round.
Highlighted in green are nights where the players were tied on final score, but only one of them advanced to the next round.
Highlighted in red are nights where the better player did not advance to the next round.
GSL 2012 Season 1 (round-of-32 + round-of-16):
Mvp 2-0 Lucky
Mvp 2-1 Lucky
Mvp 4-1 Lucky
GuMiho 2-0 Mvp
GuMiho 2-1 Mvp
GuMiho 4-1 Mvp
MMA 2-1 Oz
MMA 2-1 Oz
MMA 4-2 Oz
PartinG 2-1 Jjakji
PartinG 2-0 Jjakji
PartinG 4-1 Jjakji
Genius 0-2 MarineKing
Genius 2-1 MarineKing
Genius 2-3 MarineKing
GSL 2012 Season 2 (round-of-32):
TaeJa 1-2 Jjakji
TaeJa 2-0 Jjakji
TaeJa 3-2 Jjakji
HerO 2-1 Curious
HerO 2-0 Curious
HerO 4-1 Curious
Mvp 2-0 Ryung
Mvp 0-2 Ryung
Mvp 2-2 Ryung
Oz 0-2 Fin
Oz 2-0 Fin
Oz 2-2 Fin
Blue: For example, it's unfair to Mvp (in Mvp 4-1 Lucky) that he comes within a game of elimination even though, by final score, he is decidedly better than Lucky.
Green: By final score, these players were tied at the end and to be fair to both players, additional games should be played until the better player is determined.
Red: The worst one of them all. MarineKing, in total, was actually 3-2 over Genius in his round-of-16 group of death which also had DongRaeGu and NesTea. Yet, it was Genius who advanced, eventually all the way to the finals.
It is proposed that an extended series rule be implemented. Players who have met before should play a best-of-seven series starting with the results from their previous meeting.
Thoughts?
Poll: Extended series in GSL groups?No, the system is fair as it is (666) 82% No, the system is unfair but extended series is not the solution (76) 9% Yes, it would be more fair to the players (66) 8% 808 total votes Your vote: Extended series in GSL groups? (Vote): Yes, it would be more fair to the players
(Vote): No, the system is fair as it is
(Vote): No, the system is unfair but extended series is not the solution
Bazinga's example hits the nail right on the head.
On April 15 2012 09:28 Bazinga wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 08:19 Fubi wrote:
On April 15 2012 07:23 Bazinga wrote:I feel like a bo7 is better than two bo3s and because of that that extended series are good. Here are a blog entry and a thread explaining the merit of the extended series: The mathematics of Extended Series (Bo7) vs 2 Bo3sStatistical Analysis of Extended SeriesThe only reason not to use an extended series would be because it doesn't feel right from a traditional standpoint, but i do not know why that should even matter.
The math is wrong. It did not consider each player's performance of their other games in the group (or the whole tournament for MLG's case); but that is the whole point of having a group stage, to find the best players in that GROUP (by extension, best players in the tournament for MLG). Therefore, you can't simply consider their head to head and be like "oh this player did better against this guy in their last meeting, lets give him an advantage". The better player of the two isn't simply which one of the two beat eachother more, it's which one of the two performed better overall in the group/tournament thus far.
The point is that it considers each players performance in the groups till that point, discarding the first match between both players does not. I hope i can explain it by the following example: Player A, B, C and D are playing in the groups C won against D and BD lost against C and AA lost against B but won against DB won against A but lost against CSo the group standings are now: C 2-0 A 1-1 B 1-1 D 0-2 At this point the only players that are left to be evaluated are A and B and in order to do that you have to determine which one of both players is better. There are a few ways of doing this: The first option would be to say that B already won against A so B should advance. This is the worst option because it results in less content. The second option would be discarding the first evaluation of A vs B and starting anew, which can be done and is a valid way of determining the better of both players. The problem here is that you are not rewarding player B for his win in the first game, but you are instead punishing him because he had to play C, the tougher opponent, in his 2nd match, while A had to play D, the worst player in this group. The third option would be using an extended series format to determine the order of Player A and B more accurately than with another bo3. From the player standpoint this should be the favored option because it rewards the overall better player. As a viewer you get the 2-5 more games which means likely more content.
Last edit: 2012-04-15 11:24:33 |
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| Hondelul April 14 2012 22:45. Posts 1297 | Profile Blog # |
The players in the final set have both won and lost a game. Therefore they should start in the same position for the match.
If one player is better like you assume he will probably win the set nonetheless. Making an extended series out of the rematch will almost give no chance to the loser of the first engagement.
I like round robin more, if all players take it serious even while being in a position they can´t advance, but to introduce a travesty like extended series is no alternative. |
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| 00Visor April 14 2012 22:46. Posts 4067 | Profile Blog # |
| No, lets get rid off extended series in all tournaments. They completely defeat the purpose of double elimination. Last edit: 2012-04-14 22:46:38 |
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| xCenasfu Finland. April 14 2012 22:47. Posts 142 | Profile # |
| I mistakenly voted for yes. |
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| Utinni Canada. April 14 2012 22:49. Posts 1196 | Profile # |
On April 14 2012 22:47 xCenasfu wrote:
I mistakenly voted for yes.
You're the guy! |
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| H0i Netherlands. April 14 2012 22:50. Posts 353 | Profile # |
Is it not an advantage already to know and feel that you have to defeat a player in a Bo3, who you defeated in a Bo3 earlier this day?
Extended series is a horrible thing. The system is fine as it is right now. |
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| kuroshiro United Kingdom. April 14 2012 22:55. Posts 368 | Profile # |
| Defeating a player in a much more high-pressure scenario makes you the better player. You can't compare a win early in the competition with a win at the end. I really don't know why proponents of extended series think you can. Last edit: 2012-04-14 22:57:15 |
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| Bigtony United States. April 14 2012 22:56. Posts 892 | Profile Blog # |
On April 14 2012 22:46 00Visor wrote:
No, lets get rid off extended series in all tournaments. They completely defeat the purpose of double elimination.
Agree! I do not like extended series at all. A standard Bo7 of Bo5 is better than extended series.
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| sjperera Canada. April 14 2012 22:56. Posts 333 | Profile Blog # |
| At the end of the day... both players come into the 5th set.. 1-1 in the group... so it' fair despite their previous record... don't really like the idea of extended series... one thing i hate about MLG and... the recent IPL too... |
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| Najda United States. April 14 2012 22:57. Posts 1772 | Profile Blog # |
| It's fair as it is because the way that it's set up only allows them to meet when they are both 1-1 in sets. It would be unfair for one of the players to go into that down 2-0 when they've both lost 1 set already. |
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| m0ck April 14 2012 23:01. Posts 3242 | Profile Blog # |
| I much prefer RR, it's the best way of determining the best players. Everyone gets a chance to play everyone, and that can mean that more match-ups are tested. The problems with incentives can be overcome. |
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| Negius Netherlands. April 14 2012 23:05. Posts 133 | Profile Blog # |
I agree with the posts above me, when you meet in the final match, you have won one game and you have lost one game, making the score 1-1. I also don't like the looking at set scores, because it gives too much room for things like cheeses and map balance to become in effect.
The only way I think an extended series works is in the final (because in a double elimination format, someone has not yet lost), but even there I don't really know how it should be implemented (maybe MLG has gotten it right, by automatically making it a best of 9). |
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| Jinsho United Kingdom. April 14 2012 23:05. Posts 3023 | Profile # | |
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 HaXXspetten Sweden. April 14 2012 23:06. Posts 15716 | Profile Blog # |
| What, no no no, extended series is the stupidest system ever invented and the current GSL format is the best one, why would you even consider something like this? The whole logic if using previous head-to-head results is ridiculous, the only thing you should go on is the current performance in this series alone, anything else is irrelevant. |
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| jookaa United States. April 14 2012 23:07. Posts 4 | Profile # |
| There is no such thing as extended series in real sports so it shouldn't exist if e-sports is to be taken seriously. GSL is fine the way it is. Also, foreign tournaments really need to look at the way they structure their brackets because double elimination/winners advantage is the stupidest thing to watch, in the grand finals all the hype is deflated because you know only one player deserved to be there. The other player is at a disadvantage, rightfully so, but we could just remove the lower half and have a real "grand finals." |
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| ArcticRaven France. April 14 2012 23:07. Posts 1168 | Profile # |
| The better player didn't win ? If he doesn't win then he isn't the better player. |
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| Lobo2me Norway. April 14 2012 23:08. Posts 1207 | Profile # |
On April 14 2012 22:56 sjperera wrote:
At the end of the day... both players come into the 5th set.. 1-1 in the group... so it' fair despite their previous record... don't really like the idea of extended series... one thing i hate about MLG and... the recent IPL too...
What happened in the recent IPL that was extended series? |
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| zaii Guam. April 14 2012 23:08. Posts 2423 | Profile # |
| Extended series : Avenge the losses earlier and settle who is the better player amongst the two. |
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| jookaa United States. April 14 2012 23:10. Posts 4 | Profile # |
| IPL was awful because all the games that mattered where in the losers half of the bracket, so when a player won/lost in the winners bracket, nobody cared. Then once that player lost we had to watch him play endless amounts of games to get to the finals, which made it so anticlimactic. |
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| Hondelul April 14 2012 23:11. Posts 1297 | Profile Blog # |
On April 14 2012 22:56 sjperera wrote:
At the end of the day... both players come into the 5th set.. 1-1 in the group... so it' fair despite their previous record... don't really like the idea of extended series... one thing i hate about MLG and... the recent IPL too...
IPL4 had no extended series, just normal double elimination which is totally fine. You can look it up  IGN ProLeague Season 4 In this case I would like it more as a Bo7 final with a 1-0 lead instead of 2 Bo5. But that wasn´t the question 
Btw with looking at you post history: your keyboard seems to make 3 dots instead of 1 all the time, really wired.Last edit: 2012-04-14 23:11:47 |
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