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One-shot Vigilante Death Miller: You may Night Kill a player once per game. You flip Godfather on death
wut This will be interesting
\in
What do you mean by this though?
Each digit column will be totaled separately in base 10, then divided by 3
Do I exactly choose the role I want? Is it random or something?
If both Goons die and both Godfathers are alive, does that mean scum have 0 KP?
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Oh, it's "/in"? I don't know why I always post "\in" >_>
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If there is a vig shot and it fails, it could be he targeted someone jailed or he targeted a GF. If the Jailer didn't jail that player, he will know he's a GF, but maybe he thinks the vig is lying as well. So the vig and Jailer have to work together, or scum have to fakeclaim to feed the Jailer misinformation, or some other thing. Perhaps that's how it works?
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Yeah, I won't be active either tomorrow+some part of Sunday, or Sunday+some part of Monday, I don't know which though.
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Great, game started
Important! About vigs!
All vigs should claim
Why? Because of this:
- There are no roleblockers, therefore a claimed blue will be able to use his ability at night no matter what
- If said vig ever gets lynched, he will flip GF. If he doesn't claim at all, or claims vig right before getting lynched, then it will instill confusion about whether he was actually GF or not.
- If all vigs claim beforehand, we will KNOW that they will flip GF, so the confusion about their flip is removed.
- It will force the GFs to claim vig as well. Why? Because if all vigs claim, but then a vig claims that he shot someone, but that someone doesn't die, if the first player is confirmed vig, then the second player is CONFIRMED GODFATHER. If GFs want to avoid that situation, they will have to claim vig.
- If all vigs claim, since there isn't any roleblocker, they will be free to shoot anybody they want. If there is town consensus on who to shoot, said vigs could take that into account to shoot lurkers/scummy people of their choice at night. Even if vigs want to shoot anybody in particular, they don't need to hide that info since scum can't RB him, so they can just discuss with town about said player and he can say he will shoot him in advance.
- This previous arrangement with Town-Vigs will make is to that Jailkeepers DON'T jail those players that vigs said they would shoot. That way the JK's power isn't wasted (and could cause confusion if he succesfully saves a vig shot, but doesn't claim (i.e people will think the target is GF)). Also, since scum is less likely to shoot vig targets, it means that the JK has a smaller pool of players to choose from, and has a higher chance of saving a scum KP at night
- If a vig were to claim a target at night, and said target doesn't die, either the vig is a GF/Goon in disguise, or his target is GF. Meaning we have a confirmed scum in either of those 2, and can lynch either of them
- Vigilantes can shoot each other as well if they think there was a fake-claim. It follows just like a normal kill.
If one vig shoots another claimed vig, then if the vig was a real claim, he will flip GF. If he was Goon he will flip Goon, and if he was GF he won't flip (creating the same situation as above).
- If GF claims vig, then they can't shoot on their own. They either need to "No-Kill" 1 KP and claim it's theirs, while claiming that the scum KP got saved by a JK, or claim their target is GF. Both are bad for scum (they have to give info they wouldn't have wanted to give otherwise) and good for us if we use the information wisely.
- If scum are complacent (they don't fake-claim, or do so but don't make other plans, etc) then we'll have a small circle (or even 1) of town-vigs to our disposal and we can do whatever we want, and most likely obliterate scum (based on the previous points too)
So people, any thoughts about this? I think it's the optimal course of action. Imagine we have like 4 vig claims, then we can use them as we will, we can coordinate night shots without fear of a RBer, and we can use said night actions to determine the alignment of said vigs (we tell them who to shoot and see if the kill goes through or not, and who was his target, etc), and we can better coordinate shots as if they were lynches as well. We won't have a lone vig shooting someone random at night and him flipping town creating havoc. All vigs should discuss their targets and face scrutiny if their reasoning for shooting said target fails, etc.
I'm willing to discuss other factors, cons and pros of this, so feel free to contribute
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On April 21 2012 09:52 johnnywup wrote: I think the plan falls apart if there isn't either a vig or a tracker, which is why I brought up that it's possible we don't have a vig. And what stops mafia from claiming vig then killing? Tracker sees that they kill the person that they kill, but hey it's a misfire right? Possibly, then if we policy lynch failed vig shots we could possibly waste lynches killing townies. But we wouldn't know anyways. So I feel like the plan is flawed from that perspective.
If mafia claim vig, and claim to shoot a target, and then do so with their own KP, this can happen:
- The Goon claimed vig, and he uses his KP to shoot his claimed target: Then he wastes his other KP. If he was real vig, then there would be an additional KP, but in this case there isn't. In this case he HAS to claim that the target of scum's KP got Jailed, which can bring problems to him depending on the real JKs, for instance if there is no JK he's fucked).
In this case, a tracker on him will watch him visit his claimed target Also, in this case (if a tracker tracks him), they can't "shoot" someone, claim their shot failed and say his target was GF, because the tracker will instantly know it's bullshit.
- The GF claimed vig and he uses his KP to shoot his claimed target: Same as above, but only the Goon will use his KP. So if a tracker tracks him, he will know he didn't shoot his target and will know he's scum.
I guess this means that maybe the GF's won't fake-claim vig, and the Goons will instead? In that case, if we ever lynch him, he will flip Goon and we will know 100% that he was scum when he's lynched. If he was GF and we lynched him, since he would flip GF we wouldn't be 100% sure he was scum.
So to fake-claim, scum have to choose between: -Being protected from trackers, but not creating confusion if they ever get lynched, nor having to rely on JK's to claim their shots or -Creating confusion if they ever get lynched, but not relying on JK's to claim their shots, nor being protected from trackers.
The point is that they have to choose, they HAVE to do something. We will force them to react to our plans, and hopefully they fuck up their plans/fake-claims and we catch them easily.
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EBWOP:
So to fake-claim, scum have to choose between: -Being protected from trackers, but not creating confusion if they ever get lynched, and having to rely on JK's to claim their shots or -Creating confusion if they ever get lynched, but not relying on JK's to claim their shots, nor being protected from trackers.
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On April 21 2012 10:40 MidnightGladius wrote: Gonzaw, GFs don't have KP. I'm currently writing out a more detailed reply to your plan (I think it's a good idea), but I wanted to make that clear now.
I know, reread my post and I mention that.
This also means that if scum fake-claim Vig, they can't fake-claim JK nor tracker for instance. I think we will have a lot of more information depending on the claims, target claims, claims from other blues, etc. If we use logic accordingly, we will be able to catch scum much more easily than just using behaviour analysis.
HOWEVER:
Don't let the whole game be about the "blues" and the "plans" and shit. This is just a draft for what they should do and what info we could get, we still need to hunt scum and for that we need to analyse posts, votes and shit.
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On April 21 2012 10:37 Mementoss wrote: So just to clarify gonzaw are you saying vigs should claim day 1. Cause if thats so, all shots would need to go off night 1 or mafia would probably just take them all out, maybe they would leave them in to keep the GF flips confusing. It seems like it could be risky shooting into townies without a lot of information, on night 1. But you bring up a lot of good points.
If we want to make a "double-lynch" kind of thing, then yes we can tell some of them to shoot on N1 (or if it's just 1 claim, tell him who to shoot). But they can abstain from shooting as well, nothing tells them they SHOULD shoot on N1. However, those who don't should be put under scrutiny if they keep surviving the nights and never shooting.
On April 21 2012 10:43 Mementoss wrote: I think your messing up here Goon would never claim vig. He would need to claim hitting a godfather, then we lynch that person they come up not godfather and we half the mafia KP. Or he says jailkeeper saved the shot, then jailkeeper could counter claim. Or we could just kill the vig claimer right there.
Also GF does not have KP. He will need to claim hitting a GF, or jailkeeper. Then we do the same as above. I really see no reason to fake claim as mafia, unless its a special late game circumstance.
...yes, I said specifically those same things, why are you repeating what I said?
Remember what I said just now, THIS IS STILL A MAFIA GAME. If a Goon claims vig, claims he hit the GF, or something; then it's just additional info Is the guy who claimed vig very scummy? Then he's probably mafia. Is his target very scummy instead? Then his target is probably mafia. Trackers who tracked him, or JK's who did other things can use this information as well. But it's not something like "Oh, but if he claims he shot a GF, who do we lynch? Woes we are doomed!". We use the info, and lynch people using that info as incentive, we don't lynch people randomly just because of said claims.
Also, I'll repeat this for emphasis:
This will force scum to take action. This will force them to either claim vig or not. This will force them to claim targets at night, and fake reads on those targets so they are not put under scrutiny. It will force them to make wild plans to stay alive and not be found out. This also means that no GF can later claim vig right before getting lynched. If someone doesn't claim vig on D1, but claims later (on D3 for instance) then THEY ARE NOT VIGS. And again, scum are forced to do something, and forced to react based on plans from town means it's more likely they fuck up and we run them over.
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On April 21 2012 10:49 PaqMan wrote: I like Gonzaw's idea of the vig's claiming. Only problem with that is that Scum will have a list of vig's and won't have to do any sniping.. So now that I think about it, I don't really like that idea at all lol.
Town can't keep assuming things this game. It'll make an ass out of u and me. We don't know how many of what roles there are and continuous speculation isn't going to help at all.
Okay, so imagine scum start killing the claimed vigs then...
...This will mean that if scum fake-claimed vig before, they will be found out almost instantly (since they will be kept alive). ...This will mean that they will help us getting rid of "Flips GF when lynched" Millers.
Also, these are vigilantes, they are not Doctors/DTs/Trackers/etc. A Vigilante is not town's greatest asset. Even more considering vigs more oftenly shoot townies than scum, so scum basically hail town vigilantes these games.
Also, imagine we don't follow my plan. What happens if we lynch someone and he flips GF? Was he a vig that didn't claim or the real GF? What happens if someone is getting lynched and he claims vig? Do we lynch him or we don't lynch him because it's likely he will flip GF regardless of alignment? If we do and he does indeed flip GF, what do we do? Do you want to have that fear throughout the whole game?
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Okay, one more thing and I'll stop posting now (just want to get everything out in the open as soon as possible)
On April 21 2012 10:55 johnnywup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 10:49 PaqMan wrote: I like Gonzaw's idea of the vig's claiming. Only problem with that is that Scum will have a list of vig's and won't have to do any sniping.. So now that I think about it, I don't really like that idea at all lol.
Town can't keep assuming things this game. It'll make an ass out of u and me. We don't know how many of what roles there are and continuous speculation isn't going to help at all. it's actually in scums best interest to keep millervigs alive, as they create so much confusion which is usually scums job. All scum would have to do is make sure the vigs are on the wrong track. So because of this VE's plan of killing all vig's isn't a bad idea. But no vig's would ever claim under it. I think the best course of action is lynching any vig claims the day after, if they miss their shot. Scum wouldn't ever claim if we make a rule out of that. Also this isn't continuous speculation, this is discussing the game. Don't like it? Too bad. It's not like we can avoid this topic. It's important to the game so we talk about it.
VE's plan is to kill all claimed vigs. This means that no real vig will claim, and no scum will fake-claim either.
So what happens if we lynch someone and he flips GF then? What info would you get in that case? He could be either vig or GF and we don't know since no vig or GF would have claimed (since they would have been instantly lynched).
Imagine it's LYLO, we are trying to lynch someone, and he claims vig. What do we do? Do we follow the "lynch all vigs" rule too? But if he is indeed vig we would lose, so what to do?
If we follow our plan, we will know beforehand that there are certain players whose flip won't tell us anything (the claimed vigs, assuming no Goons claim). We will know what to do with that, we can prepare. We can also use other claimed vigs to try and shoot him at night instead. The most important thing is that if vigs claim beforehand, there will be less chaos than if they claimed right before getting lynched, or they were lynched and flipped GF
And remember, if there's chaos scum can do whatever the hell they want. If someone claims vig right before being lynched the chaos created basically gives scum the reins to do what they want (either lynch that vig, or lynch someone else, or NL, etc)
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@VE: I'm assuming JK's aren't idiots.
If a claimed vig CLAIMS he will shoot player X, then no sane JK will jail either X nor the claimed vig. Also, no JK should jail claimed vigs, if they don't claim so before doing so.
I'll make a more thorough rebuttal once I get a shower
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WARNING, Big Post coming up, be sure to read all of it, or at least the end and the part between the red asterisks:
To VE:
On April 21 2012 11:04 VisceraEyes wrote: Scum start off with an information advantage. Any plan that involves giving information to scum (like, who all the vigs in the game are) is a net loss for town 100% of the time. I'll address your points individually, for ease of comprehension.
Scum already have the info of who is town and who is scum. Like someone else already stated, if we lynch a vig, he will flip GF, and we won't know if he's vig or GF, but scum will.
Also, you missed this post of mine: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=10#187 This plan isn't about "giving scum information", it's about: -Coordinating vig shots at night (if there are in this game) -Avoiding the chaos regarding the "Flips GF" Miller mechanic from vigs -Force scum to take action and claim or not. -Based on the logical statements concluded from actions and claims, use it to aid scumhunting and determining the alignment of players and their actions.
1) There are no roleblockers, therefore a claimed blue will be able to use his ability at night no matter what
This is untrue. A claimed blue will PROBABLY get to use his ability at night, but he'll fail if a JK jails him.
JKs won't jail claimed vigs, nor they will jail their targets. Why? Because they know that : -If he jails the real vig, the vig will be sure that his target is GF, even if his target wasn't. If his target was a townie, the JK just created 2 mislynches -If he jails his target, then again the vig will be sure his target is GF, even if he wasn't. Same situation as above.
If the JK is sure the vig claiming the shot is scum, then he has to either convince people he's scum and get him lynched, or Jail him and claim he jailed him right before the deadline. Any other scenario can backfire tremendously.
2) If said vig ever gets lynched, he will flip GF. If he doesn't claim at all, or claims vig right before getting lynched, then it will instill confusion about whether he was actually GF or not.
That confusion isn't alleviated by all vigs claiming. He's still going to flip GF whether he's a vig or a fake-claiming GF and him claiming isn't going to make that any easier to unravel (especially if either of the GFs claim vig too.)
Yes it is. If he claims vig, we will know that he will flip GF once he dies (or hopefully Goon, but that's actually good so I won't take it into account). So we are prepared to see the flip, and we are prepared to act accordingly.
If the vig doesn't claim, we will just have a GF flip, and we won't know what to do about it. Scum will know whether that was the GF or the vig, but we won't. Since we weren't prepared, we won't be able to analyse the previous voting successfully, considering scum already know the alignment of the flipped player but we don't. Most importantly, it means that all the work, analysis, speculation that we've done before his flip would be mostly useless. If we prepare, we won't take this into account and will focus on other things.
3) If all vigs claim beforehand, we will KNOW that they will flip GF, so the confusion about their flip is removed.
This doesn't say anything and is patently untrue - we're still not going to know if they're a fake-claiming GF or a vig. Claiming doesn't change this at all. Period.
Please tell me how NOT claiming would be better then. So KNOWING beforehand what a player will flip, is worse than not knowing at all?
4) It will force the GFs to claim vig as well. Why? Because if all vigs claim, but then a vig claims that he shot someone, but that someone doesn't die, if the first player is confirmed vig, then the second player is CONFIRMED GODFATHER. If GFs want to avoid that situation, they will have to claim vig.
This is also not true. If a vig claims a shot and the person doesn't die, then that person MIGHT be a Godfather, or that person MIGHT have been protected via jailing, or the VIG HIMSELF might have been roleblocked by jailing. You're making assumptions and labeling them as facts and they're all bad Gonzaw.
We just ruled out that said person would be protected by a JK, so he WILL be the Godfather.
5) If all vigs claim, since there isn't any roleblocker, they will be free to shoot anybody they want. If there is town consensus on who to shoot, said vigs could take that into account to shoot lurkers/scummy people of their choice at night. Even if vigs want to shoot anybody in particular, they don't need to hide that info since scum can't RB him, so they can just discuss with town about said player and he can say he will shoot him in advance.
Vigs are free to shoot anybody they want anyway and them all claiming has NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. This isn't a point in favor of claiming, it's repeating information redundantly and padding your post. I'm almost done, I hope...
If vigs claim, they will say who they will shoot WAY before the night ends. This means that things like N1 from LI won't happen (ET randomly shooting michael out of nowhere, not knowing which vig shoot who, etc). It means that town can use the vig shot as a "double-lynch" of sorts. It means that the vig will have to discuss with town why he will shoot his target and not another one. The vig has the power to do whatever he wants in the end, but town will know about it and can analyse what to do as well depending on how the vig cooperates (it would be ideally if the real vigs would not be stubborn and take Town's opinion into account).
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6) This previous arrangement with Town-Vigs will make is to that Jailkeepers DON'T jail those players that vigs said they would shoot. That way the JK's power isn't wasted (and could cause confusion if he succesfully saves a vig shot, but doesn't claim (i.e people will think the target is GF)). Also, since scum is less likely to shoot vig targets, it means that the JK has a smaller pool of players to choose from, and has a higher chance of saving a scum KP at night
This is like, the only thing I can even make any sense of. If town agrees to a mass-vig-claim, then I'd have to agree that JK's keep their grubby hands off chosen vig targets. The only thing I don't agree with here is the bolded statement. It assumes that claimed vigs are all town (because if the claimed Vig is scum, scum will HAVE to shoot that vig target, no?) and only limits the pool of players to choose from if JKs agree with the notion of keeping their hands off vig targets (which I don't want to assume...too many assumptions.)
What? Okay, first of all You mention this:
If town agrees to a mass-vig-claim, then I'd have to agree that JK's keep their grubby hands off chosen vig targets
But you also say this:
This is untrue. A claimed blue will PROBABLY get to use his ability at night, but he'll fail if a JK jails him.
Again, you're discounting the possibility of a JK interfering. This is an untrue statement about the information we'd get from the flip (or lack of flip) skewed in favor of vigs claiming.
AGAIN WITH THE DISCOUNTING OF THE POSSIBILITY OF A JK
What? You agree that JKs should cooperate (you specifically say that they shouldn't jail the vig targets, but you imply that JKs should cooperate, meaning you imply that if JKs not jailing the claimed vigs is the best option, they should cooperate too), but then you discredit my plan because I "assume" that the JKs will cooperate?
Really? Contradiction much?
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9) If GF claims vig, then they can't shoot on their own. They either need to "No-Kill" 1 KP and claim it's theirs, while claiming that the scum KP got saved by a JK, or claim their target is GF. Both are bad for scum (they have to give info they wouldn't have wanted to give otherwise) and good for us if we use the information wisely.
I'm honestly not even sure what this point is trying to say. It's true that GFs can't kill to corroborate their story - but there's nothing preventing a GOON from fake-claiming vig, especially since they wouldn't have to worry about trackers. Also, scum aren't "giving us info" by lying about what happened - they're introducing WIFOM.
Way to miss my other posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=9#179
Yes they are giving us info. They are introducing logical statements into the game (as in "One of Player A and Player B is scum", or "If Player A is townie-vig, then the JK saved his target" or even their equivalent ones like "If no JK saved his target, then Player A is scum"). We take all those logical statements and use them, along normal analysis of players, to determine who is scum or not.
10) If scum are complacent (they don't fake-claim, or do so but don't make other plans, etc) then we'll have a small circle (or even 1) of town-vigs to our disposal and we can do whatever we want, and most likely obliterate scum (based on the previous points too)
Having a claimed 1-shot vig doesn't do anything to help us "obliterate scum". Even if only 1 town vig claims, how does that narrow anything down? Are we just automatically assuming the claim is good? Are we giving dude a pass? Why wouldn't scum fake-claim when you put it that way?
Yes it does. At that moment in time we won't know if he's scum or the real vig, but since he is in fact the real vig he will help town. We will use his shot as a "double-lynch" of sorts, hopefully hitting a Goon. It will also mean that all the points addressed before (there will be no chaos regarding a GF flip, etc) will apply, hindering scum even more.
To johhny:
On April 21 2012 11:43 johnnywup wrote: I agree with VE. We shouldn't reveal who's vig. 1) There's possible fakeclaims that really fuck us 2) There's realclaims we can't verify 3 and most importantly) Scum wouldn't want to kill the real vigs as it creates a lot of chaos, so if scum and vigs claim, they start killing people who are more likely a more useful power role (jk and tracker).
Overall, it puts us in a bad position. Sure we MAY be able to verify on their death, but that doesn't even help us much.
1)No, I already addressed that. If scum fake-claims, we will use our heads and logic to determine the alignment of the claimers. 2)Yes we can, that's why the JK/Tracker/GF mechanics are there. Even if we can't verify them, we will have logical connections made that will help us determine who is scum by plain old behavioral analysis 3)Scum may want to kill vigs or may not depending on their plans and state in the game. If they didn't fakeclaim, it's likely they will start shooting the vigs because the vigs will start to get confirmed soon, or there will be 1v1 situations with their GFs and such. If they do fakeclaim, then they can shoot them, but would most likely shoot someone else, in which case yes, it's likely they can shoot a TK/JK (if there are ones). However, we don't know if there are TKs/JKs, and because of points (1) and (2) we can find the fake-claimers more easily than if they hadn't claimed at all.
About your other post: I think I've already explained about the chaos of not having vigs claim and such. Midnight makes other good points as well.
To Midnight:
On April 21 2012 11:59 MidnightGladius wrote: I realized that I needed to revise my earlier analysis:
If a GF claims vig and then has a Goon shoot his claimed target, we lose the ability to deduce the results of night actions, unless a tracker is lucky enough to track a GF doing nothing while his claimed target dies, or a JK goes against the plan, jails one of the vig claims, and that player's target dies.
Yeah I already stated this (if you agree with my plan it would be better to actually read it ) It just adds another logical statement to take into account when analysing players and directing the vigs (or analysing their play).
2) If a vig claims a target and that player doesn't die, then we lynch them both: either it was a GF shooting without having a Goon fake the shot, or an actual vig hit a GF. Either way, we hit scum.
I disagree with this. Yes, it's most likely that if that would happen, we would end up lynching at least one of them. But that's not an automatic thing to do, it depends on the context.
Like I said, each claim, report, night action, night result, etc adds a logical statement we need to take into account. If a 1v1 event happens, it's just another logical statement; and we may even logically conclude who is scum between those 2 without the need to lynch them both. Or we can conclude who is scum out of those two by analysing their behaviour like we would normally do. Etc, etc
About VE (again):
On April 21 2012 11:08 VisceraEyes wrote:WHOOPS!!! ##Vote: gonzaw (for real this time )
What the...? You think I'm scum because of a "scumslip"? Really? You push me right now and disregard everything else (I think like 40% of your posts have been "People vote gonzaw, okay bye") and this is your reasoning? You think my plan is "shitty", but you still haven't said how I would benefit from it if I was scum. You say it's shitty because "we don't know if JKs would cooperate or not" (although you did too, check that contradiction before), but what does that have to do with me pushing a scum agenda with this plan? Do you think that if I'm scum I'll magically know that JKs will not cooperate or something?
Also, remember this VE?:
On April 11 2012 16:26 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 15:11 gonzaw wrote: What is an unwinnable situation? One where no matter how much scum we lynch, we still lose.
E.g: If we start at Day with 10v6, it's unwinable, because of this: D-10v6 N-10v5 D-7v5 N-7v4 D-5v4 N-5v3 D-3v3 GG
Meaning if at any day we are 10v6 we win even if we lynch 3 scum in succession, because scum KP will always be 3, and then 2 (scum kill more townies than we lynch scum). Woke up, read through the thread and notice this little gem. He makes a post regarding how mafia would win a 10v6 and accidentally puts in we win, we being scum. Gonzaw, do you have a confession to make? Are you scum?
Your team is Adam4167, Artanis[Xp], Toadesstern, Zealos, VisceraEyes and zelblade
Do you know what that entails?
Hint: It entails you are scum. It entails you are scum trying to discredit a good plan that can fuck up scum. It entails that you are trying to discredit the plan by pointing out asinine points like "We can't assume anything about the JKs". It entails that you "found" a scumslip from me and you are trying to milk it as much as you can. This means that you are: -Discrediting my case (by implying I'm scum) -Disrupting town by focusing, and making others focus on that stupid "scumslip", while avoiding other discussion -Because of said disruption, you shift the attention away from my plan, so even if you are not directly discrediting, you are "burying it" so people won't take notice of it or the discussion that stems from it -Faking to scumhunt. Of course, you use the "We can't assume anything about the JK's cooperation, you assume something about the JK's cooperation therefore your plan is shit" card (which is not valid itself), but you also say that you actually think JKs should cooperate in this scenario? You contradicted yourself there, but it's not a small thing because you kept going about it. It's not a small contradiction about some thing barely noticed, it's something you use as the heart of your rebuttal of my plan. It would be impossible for you not to notice that contradiction of yours, unless of course you are scum and you don't care.
##Vote: VisceraEyes
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On April 21 2012 12:50 johnnywup wrote: Honestly, if a GF flips then don't much think about it. We won't be able to analyze it. The method gonzaw wants gives the ability for scum to kill the power roles we do need (tk, jk), so i don't like it. We have to focus on killing goons as they control the KP without thinking too much about the vig. After that it shouldn't be that hard.
If a GF flips, it means that everything you've done until then was pointless. Imagine there's a player that's scummy, and you vote him. Then other scummy people start voting him. You say "Oh well, they must be bussing him". Then that guy flips GF. If those were scum, were they bussing him or were they tunneling a vig? You played the whole previous day assuming they were bussing him or something, and that you would find out after he flips, but after that all your analysis was rendered moot. If that player had claimed vig beforehand, you wouldn't have made that "Oh they must be bussing him, I'll check that after he flips" analysis, and you, with the rest of town, would focus on other things, and focus on how other players react to said player knowing he will either flip GF or Goon, etc. If vigs claimed, you would have the foresight of knowing his flip; and scum will know that players alignment once he flips anyways, so they will have the same info, but they may actually play with town before getting him lynched if he hadn't claimed.
Anyways johnny, what do you think of VE then?
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To Zephird:
On April 21 2012 12:58 Zephirdd wrote: /confirm
Usually millers have to claim as soon as they realize they are millers; However in this case the millers are also vigilantes, and we can't really protect them without RBing them.
I also will see a problem when, for example, one person claims vigilante; as in, the GFs didn't claim. Suddenly all the info we got from these "claims" is that our only vigilante is outed and mafia got a target on his head.
gonzaw didn't seem to care about this one possibility; I don't like that. I didn't read much past page 10 tho, and gotta go to sleep and go into my inactive mode(as I said before the game).
That's all.
~cya
Right, so yes, in that case our vig is outed, and mafia got a target on his head..
...so? Let scum kill our vigilante so they don't kill our TK/JK and so it gets rid of our "WIFOM element" then, or let him live but have his night actions, plus maybe the actions of a tracker/JK confirm him as town. He's a miller that flips GF and has the possibility of shooting townies; the sooner he's dead then the better. Of course if he's alive we can use his shot to coordinate a night kill, but if scum kill him they are doing us a favour.
Also, if only 1 vig claims, then ANY other GF flip is FROM CONFIRMED SCUM (since all vigs would have claimed before).
So now, I did "care about this one possibility".
I still don't like how people just disregard everything I say and plans I make, seems like UG all over again
To Mattchew:
What do you think about VE then? And what do you think about this plan thing and me "scumslipping" or some shit?
Paqman does flipflop around too much, but other than that I don't find him suspicious. I'd like your thoughts on other matters first Matt, and of course other people's thoughts on Paq and VE. However I dunno why it seems to me you are actively avoiding the VE thing or trying to draw attention somewhere else than on VE. So please don't avoid it.
To Johnny:
On April 21 2012 13:13 johnnywup wrote: @gonzaw
but what stops actual gfs from doing the same thing? its stupid, because we still can't know.
Doing what?
Even if it were "pointless" (trust me it's not), having vigs NOT claim doesn't make anything better. The pros of having vigs claim are better than them not claiming, and the cons may be the same regarding the GF flip (even though I think they are not). So the cons are the same (again, I don't think they are, but let's assume them for the sake of the argument) but vigs claiming has more pros, so it's the better choice anyways.
I don't like you using someone elses meta to explain his behavior though. That's retarded.
lol is that the only thing you've noticed from my post? And it's not meta, it's scum behaviour. Artanis' scum meta is barely posting until people accuse him. Him pointing out my "scumslip" has nothing to do with his meta, but with his behaviour.
Please read my accusation on him and post what you think about it. You know, the one where he discredits my plan because of a retarded JK matter, where he FoSes me based on a stupid "scumslip" (which he should have known is stupid and doesn't matter at all) and therefore keeps discrediting my plan as well, and where he avoids discussing things people ask him, or where he tries to disrupt town (just pick anything from that post I made).
He's pressuring you, gonzaw, and you're over-reacting.
He's FoSing, voting me and making 90% of his posts a reminder to other people to vote me, because of a "scumslip". That's not pressure.
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IMPORTANT NOTICE:
I've already explained all about the plan. All these "criticisms" by johnny, Paqman, etc have already been addressed, so if you want to check them out please just reread my filter. For instance, this:
On April 21 2012 13:24 PaqMan wrote: It's a bunch of what-if's and WIFOM that is getting us NO WHERE
It's already been addressed properly, so PaqMan please reread my posts.
So I'd like not to waste time arguing about it ad nauseaum while going nowhere.
So vigs, please reread it, analyse it, and make the right choice by claiming right now, or at least way before the lynch (specially if you are a lynch candidate).
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To Paqman:
*sigh* Okay Paqman, this is the last time I'll explain it to you.
On April 21 2012 13:29 PaqMan wrote: I don't understand that one part. How does this force scum to claim? Why would they lie in the first place and claim vigi? It seems smarter to just act as a normal town and avoid the attention that the vigi would get.
It forces them to take action They have to either claim vig or not. They have to quickly make up their mind, if not the opportunity of claiming vig in the future is lost to them (if we follow the plan, any vig claim after N1 or any GF flip is from confirmed scum).
The incentive for them to lie is because if all real vigs claim, they will be confirmed pretty easily. For instance, if they shoot townies/Goons, they will be almost instantly confirmed if the 2 Goons KP go through too. Also it's the only way they can actively disrupt town and feed us misinformation, if they don't claim they will leave everything to the vigs to do, etc.
That's the incentive they have to CLAIM, they also have the incentive to NOT CLAIM because they will remain hidden and not in the spotlight, and won't have to bother with fabricating fake-claims and reports, etc.
Again, the point is that it forces them to take action and REACT to things town does, not manipulate us.
On April 21 2012 13:37 PaqMan wrote: Or how about the vigi's DONT CLAIM AT ALL so that scum can't call vigi right before they get lynched and throw everything into disorder? Plus save the vig from possibly getting killed N1.
so that scum can't call vigi right before they get lynched
It doesn't matter, the point is that even if GF/vig don't claim at all, they will flip GF after lynched. That will tear any analysis or progress we would have wanted to make by lynching them. By claiming, we will know in advance what they will flip, so we can focus on other things (for instance in trying to catch the Goons instead of the vigs/GFs and ignoring that vig claim for now).
Plus save the vig from possibly getting killed N1
Vigs are Millers that flip GF that can only kill 50% of the scumteam, while they can kill 100% of townies. Explain to me why you want to protect them so much.
About what happens if no vigs claim:
Okay, no vig claimed for now, but what happens if all D1 goes by, every player has posted and no vig has claimed?
There are 2 scenarios:
- Everybody agrees with the plan: This means that there are no vigs in this setup, because if there was a vig, that vig agreed with my plan and so would have claimed. This means that every GF flip we find is from confirmed scum, so lynching someone that flips GF won't be a problem at all.
- Some people don't agree with the plan: There could be vigs or not. If a vig had agreed with my plan, he would have claimed, but what if the real vig is the one that opposes my plan? Then he wouldn't claim. However, if the situation arises, that player may be lynched or claim vig afterwards; which provides the same shitstorm scenario that I was describing before.
There's also the chance that there are in fact no vigs, and someone that opposed my plan is in fact scum and claims vig later. This means that we are still in the dark
So people, even if there are NO vig claims, you guys agreeing with my plan means we are still better off, so please analyse it fully, and hopefully agree.
Now onto important matters:
@PaqMan: What do you think about the other post I made about VE? What do you think about and him FoSing me based on the "scumslip"?
@johnny: So, you don't find his "contradiction", nor his FoS on me scummy then? Remember, he started discrediting my case, and that's what I would have expected him to do somewhat (considering his previous standing). But then he instantly FoSes me with the "scumslip" thing and disregards anything else, he doesn't comment anything else about me or why my plan benefits scum, or why my behaviour makes me scum, etc, nor he does comment on what people ask him.
I agree that he's aggressive at least, and that fits his town meta the most. He didn't start playing like in LI for instance. There's the chance he's putting his neck out to bury the hell out of my plan because scum greatly fear it (which is why he would change his meta). But if he's town surely I'll notice it if he explains himself and acts accordingly, but for now I don't think so.
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I'm sure VE will point this out and create more shitstorm, so just in case I'll address this:
No, I didn't mean "our plan" as in "the plan my scumbuddies and me hatched". I meant "the plan town would have imposed once people agreed with me".
Now, I dunno why but I think I'm posting WAY too much >_> I'll try to tone it down a little bit
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On April 21 2012 14:14 Risen wrote: He already pointed it out in his post voting for you. You're a little late. Posting from my phone I'll be home in a couple hours but it's a little late. Just read everything on my phone, though.
What I mean is that he (or someone else) would point out "Wait, so you OMGUS VE, but you don't even addressed that scumslip he mentioned? Oh uh you are scum and made a legitimate scumslip and you are FoSing VE to try and cover up the fact that you don't know how to actually respond or justify it oh uh hoh" or some shit
(yeah maybe I'm a little paranoid though >_> )
@Ottoxlol: Well, the point is that other than VE, you, Midnight, Paqman, johnny and Matt nobody else has really posted anything substancial, and maybe my constant flow of big posts will "bury" other posts, or make people less content about the thread (think LI's Day 2 for instance).
Of course, there are a LOT of players that haven't really posted yet, and I'm awaiting their opinion (of course it only has been like 4 hours since the game started, so it's not really their fault).
For instance, I'm VERY interested in what layabout, BlazingJitsu and sloosh have to say.
Now that I'm checking filters, I missed this post here:
On April 21 2012 11:39 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Just wondering, what's the chance gonzaw's not mafia but just making an extremely retarded point?
At any rate, what I don't get is number 6. If I was GF pretending to be vig, I'd shoot as many of the other vigs as I could. And if I was JK, I'd protect those vigs who I trust to be either town vigs or some other blues.
What do you mean by this? And Sentinel, what do you think of Paq and VE? Or do you have any other reasons for thinking my plan has "retarded points"?
(of course your 2nd point has already been answered in one of my many posts about this)
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Okay Paqman, so nobody else seems suspicious to you? What do you think about Midnight and his hard defense of my plan for instance? Or what about players that just happen to come by, nitpick my plan and then almost immediately leave, like Sentinel, Mementos, Zephird, etc?
Hey Ottolux, you wouldn't be a smurf would you? Your play and lack of introduction in your "/in" post makes it seem like it
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