TL Mafia 'Area' LIII
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Ottoxlol
735 Posts
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Ottoxlol
735 Posts
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Ottoxlol
735 Posts
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Ottoxlol
735 Posts
On April 21 2012 10:49 PaqMan wrote: I like Gonzaw's idea of the vig's claiming. Only problem with that is that Scum will have a list of vig's and won't have to do any sniping.. So now that I think about it, I don't really like that idea at all lol. Town can't keep assuming things this game. It'll make an ass out of u and me. We don't know how many of what roles there are and continuous speculation isn't going to help at all. I agree, we don't know how many of each blues we got, it's hard to make plans yet. Sorry maybe it's a bit late but, if no one from scum fake-claims, why is that any good for us? | ||
Ottoxlol
735 Posts
On April 21 2012 11:04 VisceraEyes wrote: + Show Spoiler [Holy Gonzaw Post] + On April 21 2012 10:28 gonzaw wrote: Great, game started Important! About vigs! All vigs should claim Why? Because of this:
So people, any thoughts about this? I think it's the optimal course of action. Imagine we have like 4 vig claims, then we can use them as we will, we can coordinate night shots without fear of a RBer, and we can use said night actions to determine the alignment of said vigs (we tell them who to shoot and see if the kill goes through or not, and who was his target, etc), and we can better coordinate shots as if they were lynches as well. We won't have a lone vig shooting someone random at night and him flipping town creating havoc. All vigs should discuss their targets and face scrutiny if their reasoning for shooting said target fails, etc. I'm willing to discuss other factors, cons and pros of this, so feel free to contribute Scum start off with an information advantage. Any plan that involves giving information to scum (like, who all the vigs in the game are) is a net loss for town 100% of the time. I'll address your points individually, for ease of comprehension. 1) There are no roleblockers, therefore a claimed blue will be able to use his ability at night no matter what This is untrue. A claimed blue will PROBABLY get to use his ability at night, but he'll fail if a JK jails him. 2) If said vig ever gets lynched, he will flip GF. If he doesn't claim at all, or claims vig right before getting lynched, then it will instill confusion about whether he was actually GF or not. That confusion isn't alleviated by all vigs claiming. He's still going to flip GF whether he's a vig or a fake-claiming GF and him claiming isn't going to make that any easier to unravel (especially if either of the GFs claim vig too.) 3) If all vigs claim beforehand, we will KNOW that they will flip GF, so the confusion about their flip is removed. This doesn't say anything and is patently untrue - we're still not going to know if they're a fake-claiming GF or a vig. Claiming doesn't change this at all. Period. 0 for 3 so far...I hope this starts going better sir... 4) It will force the GFs to claim vig as well. Why? Because if all vigs claim, but then a vig claims that he shot someone, but that someone doesn't die, if the first player is confirmed vig, then the second player is CONFIRMED GODFATHER. If GFs want to avoid that situation, they will have to claim vig. This is also not true. If a vig claims a shot and the person doesn't die, then that person MIGHT be a Godfather, or that person MIGHT have been protected via jailing, or the VIG HIMSELF might have been roleblocked by jailing. You're making assumptions and labeling them as facts and they're all bad Gonzaw. 5) If all vigs claim, since there isn't any roleblocker, they will be free to shoot anybody they want. If there is town consensus on who to shoot, said vigs could take that into account to shoot lurkers/scummy people of their choice at night. Even if vigs want to shoot anybody in particular, they don't need to hide that info since scum can't RB him, so they can just discuss with town about said player and he can say he will shoot him in advance. Vigs are free to shoot anybody they want anyway and them all claiming has NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. This isn't a point in favor of claiming, it's repeating information redundantly and padding your post. I'm almost done, I hope... 6) This previous arrangement with Town-Vigs will make is to that Jailkeepers DON'T jail those players that vigs said they would shoot. That way the JK's power isn't wasted (and could cause confusion if he succesfully saves a vig shot, but doesn't claim (i.e people will think the target is GF)). Also, since scum is less likely to shoot vig targets, it means that the JK has a smaller pool of players to choose from, and has a higher chance of saving a scum KP at night This is like, the only thing I can even make any sense of. If town agrees to a mass-vig-claim, then I'd have to agree that JK's keep their grubby hands off chosen vig targets. The only thing I don't agree with here is the bolded statement. It assumes that claimed vigs are all town (because if the claimed Vig is scum, scum will HAVE to shoot that vig target, no?) and only limits the pool of players to choose from if JKs agree with the notion of keeping their hands off vig targets (which I don't want to assume...too many assumptions.) 7) If a vig were to claim a target at night, and said target doesn't die, either the vig is a GF/Goon in disguise, or his target is GF. Meaning we have a confirmed scum in either of those 2, and can lynch either of them Again, you're discounting the possibility of a JK interfering. This is an untrue statement about the information we'd get from the flip (or lack of flip) skewed in favor of vigs claiming. 8) Vigilantes can shoot each other as well if they think there was a fake-claim. It follows just like a normal kill. If one vig shoots another claimed vig, then if the vig was a real claim, he will flip GF. If he was Goon he will flip Goon, and if he was GF he won't flip (creating the same situation as above). AGAIN WITH THE DISCOUNTING OF THE POSSIBILITY OF A JK 9) If GF claims vig, then they can't shoot on their own. They either need to "No-Kill" 1 KP and claim it's theirs, while claiming that the scum KP got saved by a JK, or claim their target is GF. Both are bad for scum (they have to give info they wouldn't have wanted to give otherwise) and good for us if we use the information wisely. I'm honestly not even sure what this point is trying to say. It's true that GFs can't kill to corroborate their story - but there's nothing preventing a GOON from fake-claiming vig, especially since they wouldn't have to worry about trackers. Also, scum aren't "giving us info" by lying about what happened - they're introducing WIFOM. 10) If scum are complacent (they don't fake-claim, or do so but don't make other plans, etc) then we'll have a small circle (or even 1) of town-vigs to our disposal and we can do whatever we want, and most likely obliterate scum (based on the previous points too) Having a claimed 1-shot vig doesn't do anything to help us "obliterate scum". Even if only 1 town vig claims, how does that narrow anything down? Are we just automatically assuming the claim is good? Are we giving dude a pass? Why wouldn't scum fake-claim when you put it that way? Ultimately, I dislike the notion - and your post has only reinforced that sentiment for my part. Almost every point he makes is only working if JK's cooperate, I don't see how did you miss that (point 6). He clearly states that JKs should work with the claims and then you try to confute his plan with this. | ||
Ottoxlol
735 Posts
4+ vig claims: There are 0-3 vigs, and some number of scum faking claims. We use the same plan as in the above case. However, if all of the shots hit, then in addition to there being no GFs in the group, we know that there are one or more goons among the group, which is awesome. Yes, exactly what he wrote. | ||
Ottoxlol
735 Posts
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Ottoxlol
735 Posts
So we'll know who are the vigs, and later scum wont be able to fakeclaim. We already discussed why wouldn't scum fake-claim. Scum doesn't want to kill real vigs first, so the information we are giving up is negligible | ||
Ottoxlol
735 Posts
On April 21 2012 12:02 johnnywup wrote: Since my post retelling people to read my plan was buried at the bottom of the last page, please read it I think my plan is a good one and I want people's thoughts on it. What if GF fake-claim and then Goon kills the target? | ||
Ottoxlol
735 Posts
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Ottoxlol
735 Posts
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Ottoxlol
735 Posts
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Ottoxlol
735 Posts
To the question you addressed to Paqman, I have some suspicions because some people doesnt like logic, but i think its too early to decide its their limitations or theyre scums. | ||
Ottoxlol
735 Posts
Gonzaw's plan is to out our vigs in exchange for no fakeclaims. We already discussed why scum shouldnt in their right mind fake-claim if we do it his way. I think this trade can be well worth it, what do you think? | ||
Ottoxlol
735 Posts
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Ottoxlol
735 Posts
It seems like we won't have a consensus on the vig situation, but it was a very helpful debate to get infos. Too bad not everyone posted yet. | ||
Ottoxlol
735 Posts
VE + Show Spoiler + marvellosity said: One thing I didn't like about the whole gonzaw - VE exchange was VE's pretty bad breakdown of gonzaw's plan. It seemed to amount to this - if JK doesn't agree with the plan, then the plan is bad. But... the whole idea of the plan was that everyone agreed to it, so the JK was obviously on board, it was a terrible criticism. Looking further into VE's filter, I didn't see any further substantial objection, and he went forward to accusing gonzaw for his 'scumslip', which was at best minor, and can generally be read as unimportant. I asked him 3 times about this and no response. + Show Spoiler + ANYONE PUSHING A MASS-VIG-CLAIM IS DOING SO ALONGSIDE CLAIMED SCUM After failing to comprehend the plan, he tried this shouting-tunneling on gonzaw, i found it rather amusing. His posts are also very non-constructive. + Show Spoiler + Anyway, my vote on gonzaw stands - especially now that he thinks I'm scum because I disagree with a mass-claim plan. Unbelievable. He's playing 1v1 with gonzaw, doesnt care about anyone else. | ||
Ottoxlol
735 Posts
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Ottoxlol
735 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Just wondering, what's the chance gonzaw's not mafia but just making an extremely retarded point? At any rate, what I don't get is number 6. If I was GF pretending to be vig, I'd shoot as many of the other vigs as I could. And if I was JK, I'd protect those vigs who I trust to be either town vigs or some other blues. He doesnt know that GFs cant shoot.. Nuf said, very bad post, calling out gonzaw but not making a case against his plan + Show Spoiler + I'm starting to think all of you people purposely post when I sleep Let's do it like this - everyone just do whatever the fuck they want as long as it's beneficial in some way to town. If it's not beneficial in some way to town, then lynch them. If there's one thing I know, it's that voting/lynching/etc. plans always benefit mafia because they can pull them to their advantage (and also you get lynched when your plan especially sucks). Keeping in mind with this train of thought, I will proceed to do whatever the fuck I want as long as it's beneficial in some way to town. When I get back, I'll read filters and try and put more on the table. I would wait till he put more on the table before we jump to conclusions, I disagree with that plans always benefiting mafia. He's talkin more in general terms, so maybe if he states his case more clearly we'll get more information. Sentinel, if you would be so kind to tell us your opinion about who's benefiting the town right now and who's not, i would like to read what do you think who should we lynch. | ||
Ottoxlol
735 Posts
Yes, if we are discussing a plan or someone makes a case against someone we want to know everyone's opinion. but also town shouldnt post every thought on their mind. If I am not sure about someone and the case against him is really weak, no one will panic or get lynched. I think it is a viable strategy to wait till he comments on other people's cases, if pressured scum will be more careful. | ||
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