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 Aunvilgod April 15 2012 05:12. Posts 2031 | Profile # |
Hi, I started working on this map. Now before I start placing doodads etc. I want your opinion about this map.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/A1IVC.jpg)
Now my biggest concern ist that zerg have a huge disadvantage because you have to expand towards your opponent and later, have to take the island.Last edit: 2012-04-16 05:55:33 |
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| Chargelot April 15 2012 05:21. Posts 2274 | Profile Blog # |
| Those mains look REALLY big. The rest can be left up to design philosophy, and you can present an argument for or against the views of others that will post after me (they will discuss chokes, expansion layouts, an Island without gas etc.) but those aren't necessarily ever completely right or wrong. But the mains look massive, which makes in-main proxies way too easy, and makes drop play impossible to defend against. |
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| Penke Sweden. April 15 2012 06:05. Posts 346 | Profile # |
| Yeah, the mains look to big. I wonder, is the gas in the natural siegable from the other side of the cliff? in that case you should consider rearranging it somehow I think. |
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| Gl!tch United States. April 15 2012 06:27. Posts 573 | Profile # |
| Mains are big, Also i think the third is realy hard to hold. |
| | “I mean, they say you die twice. One time when you stop breathing and a second time, a bit later on, when somebody says your name for the last time.” ― Banksy |
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| Aunvilgod April 15 2012 06:49. Posts 2031 | Profile # |
| Mains are about 36 CCs. I think that is acceptable but I will cut them anyway. I would love to see people place buildings between the nat and the 3rd. Last edit: 2012-04-15 06:53:21 |
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| Chargelot April 15 2012 06:50. Posts 2274 | Profile Blog # |
| Well if the mains are 36 CCs (which is kinda big) and that large compared to the rest of the map, I think this map is really small. Could you post analyzer images? Last edit: 2012-04-15 06:51:15 |
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| Aunvilgod April 15 2012 06:57. Posts 2031 | Profile # |
| Either my Analyzer is broken or I am too stupid to use it. But the playable bonds are 164 x 132. Last edit: 2012-04-15 06:58:48 |
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| RFDaemoniac United States. April 15 2012 07:59. Posts 321 | Profile # |
Another disadvantage for zerg on this map is that it is entirely made up of chokes/pathways and has no open areas except for between the natural and third.
Perhaps moving the minerals/gas of the third to the other circular patch of terrain? That will make it closer to the rest of your stuff but still make it difficult to defend because of how open it is. |
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| TheFish7 United States. April 15 2012 08:13. Posts 1199 | Profile # |
I like this layout. If I had to make changes, this is what I'd do, but what I'm suggesting might make the map a bit too macro-oriented. But this is what popped into my head, hope its helpful
+ Show Spoiler + |
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| Aunvilgod April 15 2012 08:34. Posts 2031 | Profile # |
Yup, an easier 3rd is definately necessary. Will move it closer to the main. And, after all, there need to be a couple more easy bases since the center 4 expos are pretty much impossibru to take until very late game. So no islands. Ohwell.Moving the natural into the main is a good idea as well.
Great suggestions. |
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| RumbleBadger April 15 2012 11:09. Posts 322 | Profile # |
I like a lot of thefish7's suggestions, but I would like to add that I think you could push the central bases back more toward the area between the third and fourth (not counting island). It may take some reworking of ramps and terrain and such, but it will accomplish a few things:
1) Right now those bases will only be taken by someone who has basically already won the game. Or maybe a terran PFing the base to control the center, but even then it's just too close to the opponent and too central to the map to be worth the resources required to hold the base. Moving it back helps solve the problem.
2) It will allow you to open up the pathing in the middle a bit, as right now it is very cramped. Zerg players will have trouble on those long hallways and protoss will dominate those areas with FF all game long. (Pushing the base that is closest to the opponent's main a little out towards the edge of the map will help with this, too).
3) It adds a little bit of high/low ground interplay which simply makes the map slightly more dynamic. For example a terran player could us the high ground overhang as a tank spot, slowing the opposing army as the try to defend their fourth from a drop. Similarly a protoss army could use the overhang for some fun FF play or some surprise storms/colo attacks. Zerg can use BLs or hydras off of that cliff. It doesn't make those units OP in that situation, just a little more useful, rewarding a player who is thinking ahead.
Lastly, I really like the aesthetic vibe you go going. Look's nice. |
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| Arizn Canada. April 15 2012 16:10. Posts 7 | Profile Blog # |
1) Mains are way too big which allows for drops, nyduses worms, cheeses, etc to be harder to stop.
2) The main has to be 2g not 1hyg because if there was only 1 gas, you can not tell what you're enemy is going for.
3) This map is really bad for terrans in non mirror match ups because, it is very difficult for the terran to grab a third base without having to max out due to the openess and possibillity of the enemy zerg or protoss surrounding.
4) The expos are too wide open while the other parts of the map are to narrow and small, you can possibly change it so that expos have more of a defender's advantage by making the expo chokes are little bit smaller, and the other parts of the map more wide open so there are more possible routes of attack and allows for the enemy to jock for position, instead of both players just sitting at each end of the corridors.
5) The islands seem really terran favoured, since terran units are more mineral heavy, marines, so it basically means that the terran gets 8 full expos, while races who have more gas heavy builds only have 7 and a half expoes since the island has no gas.
This is just my thoughts and opinions, I'm high plat terran btw. |
| | "Believe in the me, that believes in you." |
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| ArcticRaven France. April 15 2012 17:25. Posts 1163 | Profile # |
On April 15 2012 06:49 Aunvilgod wrote:
Mains are about 36 CCs. I think that is acceptable but I will cut them anyway. I would love to see people place buildings between the nat and the 3rd.
36 CC is fine. It's just that the rest of the map is really small. Less than 35 makes it very uncomfortable for T players. Not unplayable, but not fun either. |
| | [EatThePath] I call assassins as my faction. Please tell me we can all agree that in the version of history, Steppes of War will be Jerusalem. |
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| Aunvilgod April 15 2012 21:29. Posts 2031 | Profile # |
On April 15 2012 16:10 Arizn wrote:
1) Mains are way too big which allows for drops, nyduses worms, cheeses, etc to be harder to stop.
2) The main has to be 2g not 1hyg because if there was only 1 gas, you can not tell what you're enemy is going for.
3) This map is really bad for terrans in non mirror match ups because, it is very difficult for the terran to grab a third base without having to max out due to the openess and possibillity of the enemy zerg or protoss surrounding.
This is just my thoughts and opinions, I'm high plat terran btw.
Nyduses are the last thing I want to stop from happening. I don´t really see the size of the main affecting cheesing. Crappy scouting is crappy scouting.
2g is not the point where Barrin and his buddys are currently at. And since I don´t have enough knowledge to make my own descisions I will follow their "advice".
Due to PFs this map is rather terran favoured in my opinion.
Okay the island is now no island anymore but has only 4 mineral patches and 1 normal gas. It seemed just too easy to take to be a normal expo. Also moved the 3rd closer to the main and pushed the center expos back.
Does anybody have suggestions for watchtowers?Last edit: 2012-04-16 06:22:47 |
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| Arizn Canada. April 16 2012 09:12. Posts 7 | Profile Blog # |
I'm not saying that you should make it impossible for people to nydus into your base, but its simply too easy, as the main is too large, so it'll take forever to spot where the nydus is planted. The problem is not crappy scouting, its again because of the size of the base makes it very hard to be aware of your entire base.
You could possibly reshaping the mains so that the area is more compact but still have the same land size, or decreasing the size in general of the mains. |
| | "Believe in the me, that believes in you." |
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| Aunvilgod April 17 2012 00:35. Posts 2031 | Profile # |
On April 16 2012 09:12 Arizn wrote:
I'm not saying that you should make it impossible for people to nydus into your base, but its simply too easy, as the main is too large, so it'll take forever to spot where the nydus is planted. The problem is not crappy scouting, its again because of the size of the base makes it very hard to be aware of your entire base.
You could possibly reshaping the mains so that the area is more compact but still have the same land size, or decreasing the size in general of the mains.
I already decreased the size of the main to about 30 CCs as a product of shifting the nat more into the main. Additionally, because the nat is so small (there is pretty much no space for anything but the wall and the CC/Nexus) I am sure smart players will spread their buildings well enough. |
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| TheFish7 United States. April 17 2012 01:06. Posts 1199 | Profile # |
| The mains are definitely not "too big" IMO.. Unfortunately the only place I can think to put a watchtower atm is right in the middle. Although maybe you could combine it with some LOS blockers to make engagements in the very middle more interesting |
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| Gfire United States. April 17 2012 01:10. Posts 1479 | Profile # |
First off, I'd like to say that I really enjoy the aesthetic theme used here. It's really quite nice.
Now that the islands are connected, you can get four bases pretty linearly and back on your side of the map, not towards your opponent. The fifth is pretty easy to take from there. That alone makes the map pretty solid, as it can get you into the late game without any real problems expanding.
I liked the overall layout a fair bit the first time I saw it, but analyzing it a bit, I like it even more. The way that the attack paths change as the game goes on is actually quite amazing. The entire structure of the mid-level connecting everything is really well put together. I'm a big fan of this layout.
I think the central expansions would make good sixth bases if they were just a little further from the center. I don't think they're too bad now, but pulling them back a little, maybe tightening that choke between the fourth and fifth (which seems a little wide,) would improve the map's late game. The other possible sixth base, near the main of the opponent, might be a bit hard to defend, as well, and shrinking that ramp by it might help out a bit.
I thoroughly enjoy the lack of watchtowers on this map. Seems like a new trend coming up, and I can't complain.
The setup with the natural choke and the two ramps down is creative and interesting, too.
As far as the mains go, they do feel a bit awkward. Maybe the natural could be moved to where the long foot of the main is, and then the main could be made more square.Last edit: 2012-04-17 01:11:34 |
| | ESV Mapmaking Team -- @TheGfire |
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| RFDaemoniac United States. April 17 2012 02:34. Posts 321 | Profile # | |
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| Aunvilgod April 17 2012 03:01. Posts 2031 | Profile # |
On April 17 2012 02:34 RFDaemoniac wrote:I agree about making the center bigger. Here's one approach. + Show Spoiler +
Hmm, this would support clockwise expanding which should be epic. I like this idea.
On April 17 2012 01:10 Gfire wrote:
First off, I'd like to say that I really enjoy the aesthetic theme used here. It's really quite nice.
Thanks. I was thinking about the general colours of maps and noticed a lack of red-green.
Now that the islands are connected, you can get four bases pretty linearly and back on your side of the map, not towards your opponent. The fifth is pretty easy to take from there. That alone makes the map pretty solid, as it can get you into the late game without any real problems expanding.
Now I really would not have any problem with players expanding towards each other and thus forcing engagements if it would not hurt zerg as much.
I thoroughly enjoy the lack of watchtowers on this map. Seems like a new trend coming up, and I can't complain.
I might actually put some next to the outer 6th expos to confuse the players about the best choice for expanding. |
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