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A Declaration of Interdependence

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 All
 
 AlphaFerg   United States. April 15 2012 12:29. Posts 143
Profile Blog # 
A Declaration of Interdependance

I know this is a bit of a read, but I know this is an important topic for the growth of the community. I'm posting this in the hope that it helps both the community and the development team communicate better.

I: Worthiness
+ Show Spoiler +

II: Oscar Zoroaster Phadrig Isaac Norman Henkel Emmannuel Ambroise Diggs
+ Show Spoiler +

III: The Blob between Us
+ Show Spoiler +

IV: Fighting
+ Show Spoiler +

V: A Declaration of Interdependence
+ Show Spoiler +


On April 16 2012 00:12 AlphaFerg wrote:
So, to add a bit to the debate, first off, since some of you aren't reading my post (or getting the major points):

A TLDR

I - We are a great community, Starcraft 2 is a great game, we all share a goal to become the best eSports around.

II - There are some issues with Starcraft 2 in its current state. Blizzard is the only one who can change the game, fixing the issues. When the community tries to solve the issues, it is punished or ignored.

III - The inevitable future of Starcraft 2, simply put, the game is falling behind and the cracks are beginning to show. Eventually, a new game will come and replace it - unless something changes.

IV - Some options for us as a community

V - The actual declaration, summation of my points and hopes.


About the $15/mo figure

This is theoretical only. I took the closest thing that Blizzard gives to support to, WoW, and applied its model directly to Starcraft 2. No, WoW isn't getting all the support the community wants/needs, nor do I expect Starcraft 2 players to shell out $15/mo. I simply ask, if Blizzard delivered everything we wanted, would it be worth $15/mo? Interesting responses, but I don't think everybody read the question either.


About BW comparison

Brood War is a great game. It has a lot of the features we would like to see. The main difference between the two games, and the reason any comparison is useless, is because Blizzard has nothing to do with Brood War in its current form. They built the game, they patched it to a point, and they got out. From there, the community has gone and made it into an amazing lasting tradition, and a great competitive game. Iccup ladder, MSL, OSL, map makers. They are the ones making it great.

The Starcraft 2 community does not have this ability. They are punishing the community for attempting to make the game great. And with Activision at the helm, I have doubts that even ten years from now, they would even allow us to do what we currently do with Brood War.

The logical next step then, is to realize that Blizzard is the only entity that can enact the changes we wish to see in Starcraft 2. This is the main basis of my entire post. Everything added on is my speculation on how to get them to act upon their position.


And lastly, about the Poll 4

Many people are saying it is skewed in one direction, but I will show you why you're wrong.

1 and 2 are obviously unfavorable, as they will get no results, or similar results to what we currently see.

3, 4, and 5 are all in recognition that with Blizzard being the only person that can solve things, what can we take action towards to change Blizzard? 3 is to change the game, to another game. 4 is to change the company, via force. And 5 is to change their attitudes, by some way I don't really know.

The real reason this poll seems imbalanced, is because we all want to see a 6th option. We all want to see "Community Saves the Day", where mapmakers are able to put great maps into a community-run ladder, where third party programs and mods are easy to implement and enhance the game, and where tournaments don't have jarring disconnects, ruining the amazing feeling going on in a game.

I favor none of the options, and I think a lot of us would prefer a 6th option, but we do not have that option. Which, again, is the main point of this entire thread.


Poll 1: Given that one of Blizzard’s goals is to have Starcraft 2 be the best competitive game within the eSports community, are they doing enough to support it?

Poll: 1 - Is Blizzard doing enough to support SC2?

No (2303)
 
92%

Yes (205)
 
8%

2508 total votes

Your vote: 1 - Is Blizzard doing enough to support SC2?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No




Poll 2: Would you be willing to pay $15 a month to support a development team that makes fast, relevant, community-demanded updates to the game (LAN, clan support, in-game tournament creation and management, better chats and moderation, better map pools, streams embedded in game, unlimited in-game observers, rejoining games, etc...)?

Poll: 2 - Would you be willing to pay $15/mo for better support?

No (2235)
 
92%

Yes (200)
 
8%

2435 total votes

Your vote: 2 - Would you be willing to pay $15/mo for better support?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No




Poll 3: If Blizzard changed nothing about their current approach to Starcraft 2 development, would you consider switching to a similar RTS game being produced by a company more open to community input/support (i.e. how League of Legends is supported by Riot)?

Poll: 3 - Would you switch to a similar, better supported game?

Yes (1713)
 
76%

No (546)
 
24%

2259 total votes

Your vote: 3 - Would you switch to a similar, better supported game?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No





Poll 4: Which solution strategy that I present, if any, would you prefer to see implemented (see Part IV for details)?

Poll: 4 - Which solution would you prefer to see implemented?

5 - Work Together - Us giving Blizzard what they need, Blizzard giving us what we need (1287)
 
72%

3 - The Replacement - Waiting for an inevitable, better challenger (212)
 
12%

4 - Crying to Mommy - Mass protesting in hopes for a change in policy (146)
 
8%

1 - The Hope Method - Hoping for a change, Inaction (101)
 
6%

2 - Elbow Nudging - Winking slyly, Getting winked at in return (45)
 
3%

1791 total votes

Your vote: 4 - Which solution would you prefer to see implemented?

(Vote): 1 - The Hope Method - Hoping for a change, Inaction
(Vote): 2 - Elbow Nudging - Winking slyly, Getting winked at in return
(Vote): 3 - The Replacement - Waiting for an inevitable, better challenger
(Vote): 4 - Crying to Mommy - Mass protesting in hopes for a change in policy
(Vote): 5 - Work Together - Us giving Blizzard what they need, Blizzard giving us what we need




---

If you agree with the opinions in this thread, please help spread the word.

Bnet Forums Link - http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4427706752#1

Reddit Link - http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/sadox/a_declaration_of_interdependence_blizzard_and_the/
Last edit: 2012-04-16 00:19:13
Aggies Fighting!
Old Post

 
 sertas   April 15 2012 12:36. Posts 239
Profile # 
blizzard should get like 1 programmer to fix all the necessary things that still havent been fixed.
For example, lan support for tournaments only or reload game after dc feature.

Also the minor larvae glitch should really be fixed aswell.
Old Post

 
 kerpal   United Kingdom. April 15 2012 12:37. Posts 1538
Profile Blog # 
lol at poll 4. totally objectively telling us that this is the best way.
voted 'crying to mommy'
stael on ICCUP, come play.
Old Post

 
 SocialisT   Sweden. April 15 2012 12:45. Posts 158
Profile # 

On April 15 2012 12:36 sertas wrote:
Also the minor larvae glitch should really be fixed aswell.


What glitch are we talking about exactly? Some source/background would be nice

Thanks!
"There is nothing cooler than being proud of the things you love" - Day9
Old Post

 
 CyDe   United States. April 15 2012 12:48. Posts 999
Profile Blog # 
I am surprised so many said they would switch to a better game considering all the LoL hate on this website. I mean people seem to be forgetting that you CAN play multiple games at one time.
youtube.com/GamingCyDe-- SC2, BF3, whatever else strikes my fancy
Old Post

 
 Kanil   United States. April 15 2012 12:48. Posts 1627
Profile # 
I didn't have to pay $15 a month for Battle.net 1.0, why should I have to pay $15 a month to get Battle.net 2.0 up to 1.0's standards?

Nor do I trust Blizzard enough to pay them $15 a month in return for a promise that Battle.net 2.0 will gain additional features that would make it more useful than Battle.net 1.0 -- I don't believe they'll keep their promises in any reasonable fashion, shared replay viewing anyone?
Hwaseung Oz, forever in my heart. ~ HiyA, Jaedong, BackHo, Killer, Lomo, PerfectMan ~ Leta, NaDa, Reach, Shine, mini, Iris all beloved as well.
Old Post

 
 sertas   April 15 2012 12:48. Posts 239
Profile # 

On April 15 2012 12:45 The_PhaCe wrote:

Show nested quote +



What glitch are we talking about exactly? Some source/background would be nice

Thanks!


this thread, well you could just search "larvae" in the search function but i give link anyway.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323422

Old Post

 
 Imbu   United States. April 15 2012 12:52. Posts 812
Profile Blog # 
You bring up some excellent points, I really hope that with Blizzards apparent shift in how they view esports (not having Blizzcon this year in order to have the money to support a large scale tournament) they will really start to consider these changes. It's getting increasingly embarrassing as tournament after tournament suffers from the disconnects during key moments of each battle. Similarly, we have proof that these tools are easily available (both LAN and a reconnect feature have been showcased before) and these modification are met with swiftly. I'm more disappointed at the fact that Blizzard can implement these changes, but rather they just don't want to spend the time doing so.
Even though I enjoy playing Protoss, a good Terran makes my day.
Old Post

 
 Exarl25   April 15 2012 12:53. Posts 1283
Profile # 

On April 15 2012 12:48 CyDe wrote:
I am surprised so many said they would switch to a better game considering all the LoL hate on this website. I mean people seem to be forgetting that you CAN play multiple games at one time.


I'm guessing most people don't consider LoL to be a better game. They are completely different anyway, not what I would call an alternative.

If a Starcraft style RTS were released with comparable depth and a more supportive developer, that would be an attractive prospect.
Old Post

 
 Gingerninja   United Kingdom. April 15 2012 13:00. Posts 1292
Profile Blog # 
This will always be a problem while Esports relies on off the shelf products by large companies who can change things on a whim. Ideally, we would have some kind of Esports organisation who could hire a dev team and have a specific Esports games made (there's enough dev teams get sacked and shut down,, looking for work) that would be controlled by the community / Esports organisation itself and not a company who only look at profit. The start up costs and the privately controlled interests are what will hold Esports back.

MLG once talked about creating their own FPS so they could free themselves of the restrictions of Halo, nothing ever came of it. There would be plenty ways a well made community controlled game released for free (like LOL or whatever) could be monetized without screwing up game balance.

One day, some one at the head of Activision could just decide SC2 isn't financially viable anymore.. and shuts off Bnet, then what? It's all gone. Don't think it won't happen. They cut the head off Guitar Hero and Tony Hawk (altho now they are making a comeback) which were wildly more financially successful than SC2.

We are so tied up with Blizzard and battle.net, and unfortunately there are really no viable competitive alternatives currently. Probably why Blizzard aren't that quick to respond, no competition, so they are in danger of losing customers who want to play a competitive RTS.
Last edit: 2012-04-15 13:03:41
戦いの中に答えはある
Old Post

 
 Najda   United States. April 15 2012 13:05. Posts 1770
Profile Blog # 
I really feel like option (5) is the only viable option. A replacement might work but I just feel like it would just split the community, and that would kill the whole community because it isn't that big to begin with. The only way a replacement would work is if it would pull from other communities.


On April 15 2012 12:48 CyDe wrote:
I am surprised so many said they would switch to a better game considering all the LoL hate on this website. I mean people seem to be forgetting that you CAN play multiple games at one time.


Because LoL isn't an upgrade from DotA in any way. If a new and better game came out, what reason would you have for not switching?

A better analogy would be the SC2 hate from the BW community whether or not you believe SC2 to be a better game.. but I really don't want to start that.
Last edit: 2012-04-15 13:08:43
"Admit your flaws, admire your weakness, hone your imperfections – then may you address your desires." — Paul Crik
Old Post

 
 Imbu   United States. April 15 2012 13:09. Posts 812
Profile Blog # 

On April 15 2012 13:00 Gingerninja wrote:
This will always be a problem while Esports relies on off the shelf products by large companies who can change things on a whim. Ideally, we would have some kind of Esports organisation who could hire a dev team and have a specific Esports games made (there's enough dev teams get sacked and shut down,, looking for work) that would be controlled by the community / Esports organisation itself and not a company who only look at profit. The start up costs and the privately controlled interests are what will hold Esports back.

MLG once talked about creating their own FPS so they could free themselves of the restrictions of Halo, nothing ever came of it. There would be plenty ways a well made community controlled game released for free (like LOL or whatever) could be monetized without screwing up game balance.

One day, some one at the head of Activision could just decide SC2 isn't financially viable anymore.. and shuts off Bnet, then what? It's all gone. Don't think it won't happen. They cut the head off Guitar Hero and Tony Hawk (altho now they are making a comeback) which were wildly more financially successful than SC2.


I really like what you're listing here. One of the biggest problems for any esport title is that fact that the squeal will come out, and with it, the whole game changes (similar to the transition of all the Blizzard titles). Something like LoL will have the advantage of being consistently owned by Riot Gaming, and thus there will never be a need for expansions, but rather just the continuation of improving their product. (note: DoTA is slightly different here because the original was a custom map for WC3 whereas DoTA2 is an independent game).

I really hope though that eventually SC2 will be given the opportunity to improve past that, since it really is an amazing game and is currently sadly being held back by completely unrelated factors .
Even though I enjoy playing Protoss, a good Terran makes my day.
Old Post

 
 TheSwamp   United States. April 15 2012 13:23. Posts 1399
Profile # 

On April 15 2012 12:48 CyDe wrote:
I am surprised so many said they would switch to a better game considering all the LoL hate on this website. I mean people seem to be forgetting that you CAN play multiple games at one time.


A better RTS game... Most people on this website play multiple games.
MLG: How is your Protoss? Idra: I make Blink Stalkers, so really, really good.
Old Post

 
 Insomni7   April 15 2012 13:24. Posts 598
Profile # 
Let me tell you a story. It is a sad story about a game which I loved. That game was World of Warcraft. It was a game, as the OP mentioned based on the subscription model. The subscription model allowed players to very quickly state their opinions with their money by unsubscribing or resubscribing. This led to a few things, it meant that a large body of players on the edge of unsubscribing suddenly began to dominate Blizzard's decisions. Those who were not very invested with the game and who played very little were catered to by blizzard. The game became easier, more accessable, simpler, more mindless. When players like me began to rebel, when the core player base began to move toward unsubscribing, a new expansion came. It promised a new philosophy; it screamed to players like me "No, wait! Give us one more chance!" So I did. I player for a little longer, saw nothing had really changed, and in one giant heave, a large section of the community turned their head in mutual disgust away from the game. Though looking back I am happy that I left and that I discovered Starcraft, I am left with an abiding distrust of the subscription model. I do not and can not believe that it is the answer to our problems with SC2. I awknowledge the parallels are not perfect, but they are certainly relevant. The other object of this story is simply to point out that nothing lasts forever. SC2 will not last forever and was never made to. The OP says the game is falling behind, of course its falling behind. As time passes every game is falls behind, every game will slip away either a slow descent into obscurity or through some single movement. Noone ever promised us SC2 would last forever, and noone can reasonably expect it to always be up to date. I still continue to believe that Blizzard is extremely good about continuing to improve their games after release. I have no complaint against them.
"Lay the egg, become the god"
Old Post

 
 Abort Retry Fail   April 15 2012 13:28. Posts 2627
Profile # 
Survival of the fittest. Blizzard seems intent on putting money elsewhere.
BSOD
Old Post

 
 Forikorder   April 15 2012 13:32. Posts 5171
Profile # 
i think you guys are going way overboard, Blizzard shouldnt have to do anything except make the game balanced which were doing a damn good job of doing Blizzard neither has to nor should be hodling the hand of e-sports, e-sports is big enough now that it can start to push itself up on its own two feet and see where it can go by itself, SC2 isnt some new game that noones heard about thats trying to break into the scene, it IS the scene

i mean come on, Blizzard has made the best game in the world why do they have to do everything?
Last edit: 2012-04-15 13:33:55
 
Old Post

 
 Thewildfish   United States. April 15 2012 13:35. Posts 111
Profile # 
Blizzard is doing a great job listening to the community recently. I don't see the need for this thread =(
 
Old Post

  0neder   United States. April 15 2012 13:36. Posts 3732Profile # 
To be honest, I could care less about Blizzard's support--EVEN for LAN--if the game itself was better. Unfortunately, the game of SC2 itself is just fundamentally inferior and flawed as an esport relative to the original. I want to love it. I like it and have liked it for two years. But never loved it. And I never will love it unless radical changes to the actual game are made. Based on blizzard's presented development of HotS, it looks like the potential of the game will not improve.

A colossus will never make anyone gasp or shriek in excitement.
A fungal can never be dodged because there is no cast animation.
Suspense can never build up because you can max out in 12 minutes.
Aside from the marine, I can never see someone micro any other sc2 unit--a single hellion for example--to kill a dozen drones while being chased by combat units.
Foundational units of different races are too similar. The lack of contrast is boring.
Underlying code prevents top level micro.

The fundamentals of the game are the main shortcoming. Lack of LAN and all the other correlaries are just more symptoms of a related illness.


 
Old Post

 
 Gingerninja   United Kingdom. April 15 2012 13:36. Posts 1292
Profile Blog # 

On April 15 2012 13:32 Forikorder wrote:
i think you guys are going way overboard, Blizzard shouldnt have to do anything except make the game balanced which were doing a damn good job of doing Blizzard neither has to nor should be hodling the hand of e-sports, e-sports is big enough now that it can start to push itself up on its own two feet and see where it can go by itself, SC2 isnt some new game that noones heard about thats trying to break into the scene, it IS the scene

i mean come on, Blizzard has made the best game in the world why do they have to do everything?


They shouldn't do everything.
The problem is, they have the game locked down so nobody else can.
Keeping the servers running fine, game balanced.. that's all cool. That's what you'd expect from a service offered by a game company. (remember your paying for a service with SC2.. not the game itself. Battle.net gives you access to the service)
But because they control everything, no one else can do anything to advance the scene without them.
戦いの中に答えはある
Old Post

 
 Imbu   United States. April 15 2012 13:39. Posts 812
Profile Blog # 

On April 15 2012 13:32 Forikorder wrote:
i think you guys are going way overboard, Blizzard shouldnt have to do anything except make the game balanced which were doing a damn good job of doing Blizzard neither has to nor should be hodling the hand of e-sports, e-sports is big enough now that it can start to push itself up on its own two feet and see where it can go by itself, SC2 isnt some new game that noones heard about thats trying to break into the scene, it IS the scene

I think one of the things that concerns people is that although SC2 is the scene at the moment, will it be able to continue to exist with that type of reputation? SC2 was allowed to enter that state because of the huge support from its dedicated BW and WC3 fanbases. However, since the release of the game, esports is in a much better place than it has ever been (streaming technology, general understanding, HUGE LANs). But with that infrastructure improving, a new game that is able to provide both balance and certain features (LAN, shared replay, clan support, etc.) would have the opportunity to emerge and become the dominant title.

I fucking love this game and the challenges it keeps throwing at me, and will probably never leave this community until there is no one left. However, that might not be true for the majority of current spectators, and it would be a shame if that ever happened .
Even though I enjoy playing Protoss, a good Terran makes my day.
Old Post

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