Now that you've opened the topic, this isn't quite what you expected now is it? So I was laddering on KR this evening and I hit an unusual streak of protoss. Amongst the cannon rushes and proxy gateways one guy I played went mass voids. Normally Void ray strats are easy enough to deal with - you hit them with a timing before they get critical mass. But this was slightly different.
We both opt for phoenix builds. My phoenix are first to come out as he is going for a hidden expo; as such I have the upper hand (kinda). I expand, get +1 weaps and continuing making phoenix. But he adds a second stargate and thus is making more phoenix than me. I usually only open phoenix to secure a macro game and control the tempo of the game, and seeing as we're in a macro game now I'm happy to stop phoenix production and mass stalkers to defend while adding probes.
The game progresses and I notice that he has started producing VRs. I try to do some pressure with my mass of blink stalkers but it was too hard to get any real damage off in his natural because of the voids/units/cannons and so I just left.
So what do I do from this point? Now he has established a number of VRs and is no longer vulnerable to a timing attack. I figure these are my options:
Go blink stalkers, get storm and stay ahead in expansions. Limit his economy as best I can with a goal to wear his army down and beat it with a few waves of units.
Get a mothership and some archons and aim for an archon toilet to eliminate the Voids.
When he attacks me use the mobility of my blink stalkers to base trade and spread out my buildings as best I can as to minimise the loss of any base.
Now I end up going for the first option, and end up winning the game. However I think I only won because he was making very bad mistakes. As a result, I'm not quite sure as to the best approach to fighting mass voids as I thought storm/blink would have been the best. Particularly when you have invested in a number of blinkstalkers. Maybe the mothership was the better option? Maybe I have no idea.
So TL, how do you handle mass voids, in the very very rare instances that it pops up.
To be clear; I'm not looking for people to point out the errors in my play, I'm asking for what strategy should you employ against mass VRs. I know exactly where all my mistakes are, aside from what unit composition/plan I should have been aiming for.
Last edit: 2012-04-15 17:42:02
~ Spirit will set you free ~
Ero-Sennin United States. April 15 2012 17:49. Posts 653
Zealot/Archon with supplement of stalkers. Archon splash damage + stalkers ranging from the back should deal with it pretty well. I guess storms wouldn't hurt but whenever I've been up against this (and it's been very few and far between from mostly bad players), I'd tend towards the composition of zealot/archon with supplementing stalkers.
Never seen this strat above silver league. A friend of mine was playing his first placements matches and faced this. I was sitting next to him and told him to go mass blink stalkers (he still lost). I've actually wondered if it was the correct advice, nice to see you chose the same
On April 15 2012 17:49 Ero-Sennin wrote: Zealot/Archon with supplement of stalkers. Archon splash damage + stalkers ranging from the back should deal with it pretty well. I guess storms wouldn't hurt but whenever I've been up against this (and it's been very few and far between from mostly bad players), I'd tend towards the composition of zealot/archon with supplementing stalkers.
Well if you're just going Zealot/Archon a decent split of VRs + bonus to massive should be able to deal with it? Particularly since they get 2 VRs for every 1 archon (in terms of gas). I could see it working with a mothership (as stated in OP) though?
~ Spirit will set you free ~
crazymunch Australia. April 15 2012 17:55. Posts 44
I know this might not be the answer to your question, but I remember seeing a (FFA) game where someone employed the same strategy, and was absolutely mutilated by an archon toilet:
Skip to 23:30 for the money shot
At that stage of the game it was basically a 1v1, so I figure it's at least relevant to show the Terrible, Terrible Damage an archon toilet will do to mass voids.
monk United States. April 15 2012 17:56. Posts 6828
You shouldn't have stopped phoenix production. In phoenix mirror, it usually becomes a mass phoenix cold war with just huge phoenix buildups from both sides where it's risky for either side to attack. Whoever has fewer phoenix at any given time usually loses.
Also, against mass voidray, the best option is generally mass phoenix if you want to go for a macro game.
On April 15 2012 17:56 NrGmonk wrote: You shouldn't have stopped phoenix production. In phoenix mirror, it usually becomes a mass phoenix cold war with just huge phoenix buildups from both sides where it's risky for either side to attack. Whoever has fewer phoenix at any given time usually loses.
Well I disagree with this, but it isn't what the thread is about anyway.
Also, against mass voidray, the best option is generally mass phoenix if you want to go for a macro game.
While I agree with you in principle the question I have is that can you reactively go back and make additional stargates and begin to mass phoenix? If this were a more normal 3gate expand type build I don't think I would have that luxury.
I don't think archons are all that great against void rays, sans the toilet maneuver. Void rays do bonus to massive units when charged, while archons get no bonus modifier against the void rays, and splitting on the void rays really helps against the splash. On top of that, archons are big fluffy things and take up lots of space, while they have a fairly short range, so it can be hard to get a lot of them hitting at the same time. Archon toilet would probably work, but it seems like an all-your-eggs-in-one-basket strategy.
Last edit: 2012-04-15 18:13:52
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Genome852 United States. April 15 2012 18:10. Posts 790
On April 15 2012 18:02 alyselol wrote: I don't think archons are all that great against void rays, sans the toilet maneuver. Void rays do bonus to armoured units while archons get no bonus modifier against the void rays, and splitting on the void rays really helps against the splash.
Archons aren't armored... voids do get 20% damage bonus against massive units when charged though
On April 15 2012 18:02 alyselol wrote: I don't think archons are all that great against void rays, sans the toilet maneuver. Void rays do bonus to armoured units while archons get no bonus modifier against the void rays, and splitting on the void rays really helps against the splash.
Archons aren't armored... voids do get 20% damage bonus against massive units when charged though
Oops, thanks. 5am here, getting late. z.Z
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
monk United States. April 15 2012 18:15. Posts 6828
On April 15 2012 17:56 NrGmonk wrote: You shouldn't have stopped phoenix production. In phoenix mirror, it usually becomes a mass phoenix cold war with just huge phoenix buildups from both sides where it's risky for either side to attack. Whoever has fewer phoenix at any given time usually loses.
Well I disagree with this, but it isn't what the thread is about anyway.
You can't really get away with stopping phoenix production, because he can just run in and kill all your phoenix off of 2 stargate production. Even if you spend all your remaining gas into stalkers, he can kill your phoenix with very few loses and you will be in an impossible situation where you dumped so much money in useless tech and he can freely harass. I've played phoenix wars quite a lot and it always ends up the same. It either ends in 1 air battle where the loser can't come back with a ground army or both players are too timid and eventually tech to mothership.
With regards to the thread, I think it's very relevant, because I believe what you're currently doing puts you in a checkmate situation. Even if he didn't go for the kill on your phoenix, you'll end up in a horrible situation as I'll try to explain later.
Also, against mass voidray, the best option is generally mass phoenix if you want to go for a macro game.
While I agree with you in principle the question I have is that can you reactively go back and make additional stargates and begin to mass phoenix? If this were a more normal 3gate expand type build I don't think I would have that luxury.
The most common scenario I've seen voidrays added into a composition is when both players go colossi and one goes double robo and the other goes 1 robo with 2 stargate to mass voidray. If you can scout this with an obs, you can add 2 stargates for yourself and begin production phoenix; this works because you're cost efficient and phoenix build much faster than voidrays. In addition, he can't attack you with either 2 or 4 voidrays.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your example. If you open 3 gate expand and see your opponent opened voidray, it works. It's just that in your situation where your opponent already has a squad of phoenix and you don't, it'll be very hard to catch up in phoenix numbers.
On April 15 2012 17:56 NrGmonk wrote: You shouldn't have stopped phoenix production. In phoenix mirror, it usually becomes a mass phoenix cold war with just huge phoenix buildups from both sides where it's risky for either side to attack. Whoever has fewer phoenix at any given time usually loses.
Well I disagree with this, but it isn't what the thread is about anyway.
You can't really get away with stopping phoenix production, because he can just run in and kill all your phoenix off of 2 stargate production. Even if you spend all your remaining gas into stalkers, he can kill your phoenix with very few loses and you will be in an impossible situation where you dumped so much money in useless tech and he can freely harass. I've played phoenix wars quite a lot and it always ends up the same. It either ends in 1 air battle where the loser can't come back with a ground army or both players are too timid and eventually tech to mothership.
With regards to the thread, I think it's very relevant, because I believe what you're currently doing puts you in a checkmate situation. Even if he didn't go for the kill on your phoenix, you'll end up in a horrible situation as I'll try to explain later.
I don't think this is what this thread is about. If you think that phoenix vs phoenix can only end in mass phoenix wars then I disagree; playing dual sg pheonix vs 1 sg phoenix/gateway plays out very similar to 1 sg phoenix vs gateway which is by no means a free win for the phoenix (else everyone would open phoenix). Like I said, it isn't relevant to the thread. The thread asks if you scout someone massing voids (in particular once they have a decent number of them) what do you do?
Also, against mass voidray, the best option is generally mass phoenix if you want to go for a macro game.
While I agree with you in principle the question I have is that can you reactively go back and make additional stargates and begin to mass phoenix? If this were a more normal 3gate expand type build I don't think I would have that luxury.
The most common scenario I've seen voidrays added into a composition is when both players go colossi and one goes double robo and the other goes 1 robo with 2 stargate to mass voidray. If you can scout this with an obs, you can add 2 stargates for yourself and begin production phoenix; this works because you're cost efficient and phoenix build much faster than voidrays. In addition, he can't attack you with either 2 or 4 voidrays.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your example. If you open 3 gate expand and see your opponent opened voidray, it works. It's just that in your situation where your opponent already has a squad of phoenix and you don't, it'll be very hard to catch up in phoenix numbers.
So what you're saying is that past a certain point if you haven't seen the VRs you lose? There must be a good reason why we don't see more pros go for mass VR strats if its so powerful that you can only counter it by powering phoenix really hard
Interesting replay, your response is the correct one in my experience.
Voidrays are not particularly cost-efficient units against stalkers it must be noted (uncharged, and mass voidrays should never charge). Thats the reason its not a common strategy to openly mass them, rather most of the time they'll try to hide the voidray count for that "oh shit" moment. They're way heavier on gas than stalkers, more even on the minerals, but really the voidrays advantage is they're good per supply. You can't produce voidrays fast enough to threaten the stalker player on even economy.
Limit the economy, engage away from static defense, dump excess gas into archons and its not a particularly good strategy. Archons aren't really for the voidrays either, thats just a bonus, they're for the zealot/archon/immortals they'll have underneath.
Upgrade your blinkstalkers (forge upgrades) and abuse mobility. If you engage - focus fire and blink away when they start charging up. Archon toilet is just hoping for them to not be carefull imho. Also, backdoor warp prism when the move out. That's the only way i ever win vs mass VR's.
Im a master zerg player so my advice is not worth much but just theorycrafting i feel that a mothership should be the to go solution, more so than any other deathball the strength of void rays is found in their critical mass. Eliminating that factor is worth more than the 600 gas you save by not putting up a fleet beacon + mothership.
A mothership also adds utility in form of mass recall, every now and then a game offers the possibility of killing his main and recalling back before his slow army has done any significant damage.
I'm probably being ironic
PepeLaPu United States. April 15 2012 19:07. Posts 16
Storm is the way to go here, I've seen voidray/immortal on the ladder a couple of times, and if you just make sure you have ~5 high templars with full energy you can storm the voidrays and kill the rest.
monk United States. April 15 2012 19:09. Posts 6828
On April 15 2012 17:56 NrGmonk wrote: You shouldn't have stopped phoenix production. In phoenix mirror, it usually becomes a mass phoenix cold war with just huge phoenix buildups from both sides where it's risky for either side to attack. Whoever has fewer phoenix at any given time usually loses.
Well I disagree with this, but it isn't what the thread is about anyway.
You can't really get away with stopping phoenix production, because he can just run in and kill all your phoenix off of 2 stargate production. Even if you spend all your remaining gas into stalkers, he can kill your phoenix with very few loses and you will be in an impossible situation where you dumped so much money in useless tech and he can freely harass. I've played phoenix wars quite a lot and it always ends up the same. It either ends in 1 air battle where the loser can't come back with a ground army or both players are too timid and eventually tech to mothership.
With regards to the thread, I think it's very relevant, because I believe what you're currently doing puts you in a checkmate situation. Even if he didn't go for the kill on your phoenix, you'll end up in a horrible situation as I'll try to explain later.
I don't think this is what this thread is about. If you think that phoenix vs phoenix can only end in mass phoenix wars then I disagree; playing dual sg pheonix vs 1 sg phoenix/gateway plays out very similar to 1 sg phoenix vs gateway which is by no means a free win for the phoenix (else everyone would open phoenix). Like I said, it isn't relevant to the thread. The thread asks if you scout someone massing voids (in particular once they have a decent number of them) what do you do?
I won't be able to convince you that mirror phoenix openings always end in phoenix wars without either playing a game with you or other people backing me up. It's a hard concept to grasp if you've never played this situation a lot before. Dual sg phoenix on 2 base beats 1 stargate phoenix on 1 base because you essentially cede the 4-5 phoenix plus your stargate; he will be able to kill all your phoenix and you end up with your useless stargate while he maybe loses 1 phoenix, even if you camp under stalker fire. You'll end up at least 1300 resources down. In fact, your opponent doesn't even have to get a 2nd stargate. As long as he catches you cutting phoenix while he didn't cut phoenix, he kills all your phoenix and then lifts all your other units/probes. The only situation where 1 stargate beats 2 stargate is if the 2 stargate player camps his base and allows the 1 stargate player enough time to transition to a huge bunch of stalkers with blink and then templar.
I can't find anyone at this time of day to back me up, but here's a quote from this PvP phoenix guide.
One of the most intense and frustrating experience is phoenix vs phoenix in PvP. If at any point some player has one more phoenix than his opponent, and "tags" the other guy's phoenixes somewhere on the map, it's an auto win for him (shoots while moving and does bonus damage vs light...). There is only one way to play this out I think : keep massing chronoboosted phoenixes until you have more then him. If you have less then him, camp your mineral line with your stalkers and phoenixes. (This doesn't mean that you can't move out with your phoenixes to scout his expansion timing, phoenix numbers, tech switch etc... It just means that when you move out, you have to be 100% focused on your phoenixes so they don't get "tagged".) If you have more then him, harass his mineral line. Eventually you guys will run out of gas and have to expand with the left over ressources. A good occasion to take double gas and add an additional stargate to make more phoenixes.
Pertaining to your thread, in your scenario, you're asking how to beat a bunch of phoenix in addition to mass voidrays, which is different from how to beat mass voidrays. That's why I brought this point up.
Also, against mass voidray, the best option is generally mass phoenix if you want to go for a macro game.
While I agree with you in principle the question I have is that can you reactively go back and make additional stargates and begin to mass phoenix? If this were a more normal 3gate expand type build I don't think I would have that luxury.
The most common scenario I've seen voidrays added into a composition is when both players go colossi and one goes double robo and the other goes 1 robo with 2 stargate to mass voidray. If you can scout this with an obs, you can add 2 stargates for yourself and begin production phoenix; this works because you're cost efficient and phoenix build much faster than voidrays. In addition, he can't attack you with either 2 or 4 voidrays.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your example. If you open 3 gate expand and see your opponent opened voidray, it works. It's just that in your situation where your opponent already has a squad of phoenix and you don't, it'll be very hard to catch up in phoenix numbers.
So what you're saying is that past a certain point if you haven't seen the VRs you lose? There must be a good reason why we don't see more pros go for mass VR strats if its so powerful that you can only counter it by powering phoenix really hard
Pros don't do it because it does have a counter. If you invest so much into it and you're scouted, you lose. Voidrays aren't good at all unless in critical mass and it's impossible to hide them vs a competent player for so long.
Archons with GS from sentries and a mothership is your best bet in my humble opinion. Since the change to gs (meaning that it affects void ray dmg) the dmg output from voids to archons is incredibly low (it goes down from 6/8 (if charged up) to 4/6). So even if voids are fully charged up they will only do 10dps through gs on your archons while each archon does 20dps to voids (they do no bonus dmg, but they scale so well with +3 attack while you can negate any air attack upgrades from voids by getting +3 shields) even if none even do any aoe dmg (and they will do some).
It's hard to tell, since hardly anyone plays such things. In the last months I only ran into people getting a lot of voids twice and my response was just getting more archons and it smashed them. Unfortunately I don't have the replays any more since they were gone when I reinstalled my os (forgot to back them up). It was mid masters level ladder, I don't ever see such things in high level games usually. That being said, I remember 2 occasions in high level games that were being played and casted in tournaments. It was not straight phoenix into mass voids however, more like standard opening into a ton of voids on 2-4 bases then.
One was game between InControl and another protoss (sry that match is way too long ago to remember :-)) on Shakuras Plateau and the voids kinda won while InControl had a Col+Stalker-based army. The other occasion was between HasuObs and some korean protoss (again match was already like 3-4months or something like that ago) which was played in some tournament on Terminus SE and HasuObs had the lead with a little bit of a better income (quicker 3rd and a better engagement) and thus had more colossus already. The other guy went for 2 hidden stargates with voids and HasuObs was caught by surprise there. His stalkers were not sufficient and he had to fallback every time with his colossus, warp in more, push a few steps, fall back etc. He added 5-6 archons then and was able to finish (he didn't use gs though, but back then gs wasn't fixed yet and didn't help vs void ray dmg).
sYz-Adrenaline United States. April 15 2012 19:15. Posts 1689
The best strategy that works for me when I'm up against a mass void was to get zealot/archon ball, Colossus(if he has them) a good number of stalkers (with blink) and some storms.
The splash to the voids is deadly form archons. All air has a tendency to stack on each other as they micro them throughout a battle. Unless your up against a pro who constantly unsplits them it should come down to a hard micro battle. Also if you can keep the voids down to a low number that's also good along with a mothership super late game vs mass voids. Not as effective archon toilet like it would be vs Broods but you will get one maybe two shots off + storms.
edit: (im just waking up getting ready for my drill weekend TT) but also the more heavy he is towards voids the more archons/stakers and less zlots/colossus. glhf
Last edit: 2012-04-15 19:19:51
Can you feel the rush?
monk United States. April 15 2012 19:20. Posts 6828
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