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| lukasdesign Switzerland. April 26 2012 23:19. Posts 93 | Profile # |
On April 26 2012 21:53 denten wrote:
i have n o idea what this is supposed to teach this to people if u dont understand this by urself you are probaly mentally retarded anyway so it wont help with a few videos . retards will b e retards forever
User was temp banned for this post.
Denten, it's clear that you as a 7 times GSL champion don't have any use for such basics, your brilliant macro skills are still talked about!
Unfortunatly you don't release any replaypacks of your stellar games.
Until you do, we normal human beings will have to rely on the GREAT WORK of FilterSC...and gladly ignore jealous little kids
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| Ramone Canada. April 27 2012 01:49. Posts 82 | Profile # |
Thanks very much for posting these videos! I've been playing SC2 since January as protoss and made it to the gold league. My best match up is pvp because I understand how the race works and how to read the scouting tells.
My macro definitely needs work, and I thought that I could learn a new race and improve my macro by working on your video tutorials. I figured if I could learn Terran, it would help in PvT. I was right, it's definitely helping improve my macro as protoss, and I've even played a few gold level games as Terran (where I got stomped, heh). But still, it's good to learn a second race and improve my macro.
Thank you very much for taking the time to make these, they're very helpful.
Cheers,
Ramone |
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| IBringUFire Germany. April 27 2012 03:00. Posts 93 | Profile Blog # |
So after two days of practice I was finally able to test my newly acquired macro skills on ladder.
The first game I lost because of an 8:30ish Immortal/Stalker/Sentry/Zealot push that I didn't react to until my bunker had fallen.
After that however I got four straight wins, against Protosses and Zerg. The last game went until Blizzard Time 23:00. I was able to keep the Zerg on three bases and outmacro'd him in the end. Even though he went (muta) / ling / bling. I had so much stuff that his bling ball wasn't enough to kill my MMM ball. That's right, nothing but MMM vs. lots of blings!
Ergo I would like to express my thanks to you, Filter.
By the way, I'm 25ish in Platinum League. |
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| rallypoint April 27 2012 06:20. Posts 28 | Profile # |
Awesome stuff Filter! Loving the detail and time you're putting into this awesome series.
As a zerg player who has pretty much been 'diamond forever', I am extremely excited to see the zerg knowledge you will share!
Looking forward to it! |
| | Follow me on twitter! -- www.twitter.com/rallypointsc |
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| Banj0 Sweden. April 27 2012 07:22. Posts 49 | Profile # |
Starting out from the very start and will work my way through the process. I am hitting 50-52 SCV's vs. computer where I usually play at 'normal' or 'fast' to allow more time to think while practicing.
In ladder games i am hitting 44-48 SCV's at the moment. I tend to build too much stuff at a time (adding 4 barracks at once), so my resource management is no good. But the build is incredibly simple and I hope I can get it soon.
Thanks so much to filter for setting this up! it is great!Last edit: 2012-04-27 07:23:09 |
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| Blackknight232 United States. April 27 2012 11:56. Posts 167 | Profile # |
what happens if u get sentry/stalker bust by a toss and don't have a lot of units to back it up?
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| Heweree United Kingdom. April 27 2012 12:36. Posts 497 | Profile # |
As a high master myself I find you make some pretty weird decisions u_u
However, really useful for some of my newbie friends. |
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| docvoc United States. April 27 2012 12:56. Posts 3475 | Profile Blog # |
When are diamond and masters gonna come out ^^, I'm currently practicing the bronze one almost everyday and hitting the mark or missing by 1-2 probes :DDDD. I did this in gold (the bronze one) i was 30 supply ahead at almost all times, it was insane  |
| | User was warned for too many mimes. |
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| Filter Canada. April 27 2012 13:01. Posts 590 | Profile Blog # |
| Diamond ones are actually out, just on my youtube channel. I don't really want to edit them in here because the focus here is on pure mechanics, and the diamond ones shift that more towards build variations. (If you can hit the benchmarks here and understand how to time a build, you should be able to use all the various build resources out there really effectively) |
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| Heweree United Kingdom. April 27 2012 13:37. Posts 497 | Profile # |
Another thing that surprised me, and we don't see anymore in EU is the second depot. Now it's all about, depot,rax,cc. You get your cc 20 sec earlier, you only miss 1 marine but will get ahead scv wise. You don't need to build a 3rd suppl depot (the cc finishes right when you hit 27), overall you get your 2 next rax earlier and same for the 2 gases.
Basically it puts you ahead of +30 sec, (I start my 2 gases at 4:30 while you start them at 5:10, almost the same advantages with the 2 raxes). I'm econ ahead, and with the 2 raxes being almost 30 sec earlier it compensates the 1 marine missing really easily.
The only thing it's weak against is a 3 rax allin. But I would say it's even better, because by the time he arrives your cc is finished so you can float it over, while with your 1 rax expand you would have to cancel the expand. And a 3rax is not difficult to scout.Last edit: 2012-04-27 13:39:12 |
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| Filter Canada. April 27 2012 14:30. Posts 590 | Profile Blog # |
On April 27 2012 13:37 TanTzoR wrote:
Another thing that surprised me, and we don't see anymore in EU is the second depot. Now it's all about, depot,rax,cc. You get your cc 20 sec earlier, you only miss 1 marine but will get ahead scv wise. You don't need to build a 3rd suppl depot (the cc finishes right when you hit 27), overall you get your 2 next rax earlier and same for the 2 gases.
Basically it puts you ahead of +30 sec, (I start my 2 gases at 4:30 while you start them at 5:10, almost the same advantages with the 2 raxes). I'm econ ahead, and with the 2 raxes being almost 30 sec earlier it compensates the 1 marine missing really easily.
The only thing it's weak against is a 3 rax allin. But I would say it's even better, because by the time he arrives your cc is finished so you can float it over, while with your 1 rax expand you would have to cancel the expand. And a 3rax is not difficult to scout.
There's a pile of reasons to get the depot first, and on the surface the CC before that depot seems to make more sense. If you look at it a bit more though you can see that the depot first is actually more beneficial, especially at lower levels.
The depot first denies scouting, which means your opponent won't know if you're going fast expand or not. He can either assume (which most people do), play it safe (detection) or try to scout the CC around the 5minute mark (almost nobody does this). This actually is a good way to slow down a 6 or 7 gate push, because the protoss player needs to get a robo unless he can confirm you have a CC down. Usually by the time he figures this out he'll already have made a robo which cuts into a 7gate pretty good. Terrans need to burn a scan early enough that it won't catch anything overly valuable and zergs have to confirm the expansion with lings, they don't know if it's a hidden two rax, three rax or whatever. It's also safe vs. proxy 2gates, early pools etc.
Skipping the depot doesn't speed up gas IF you still get the bunker and play it safe, the gas actually goes down at the exact same time (faster orbital delays the gas, reason it's at the same time.) You'll gain a couple scv's but thats not a big deal if you're on point with scv production anyway.
I'm also just trying to teach people how to play a macro style safely, not a specific build order that's refined to the second. I prefer getting the second depot first for a huge number of reasons, and the bunker helps ensure the CC can be built on the low ground taking away the float time. If people want to go CC before that and skip the bunker they can and they can succeed with it obviously but it is a risk and it is cutting a big corner.
Starcraft2 is a very complex game, and there is no right way to do things. There are however many reasons certain things are done, above and beyond small advantages. I firmly believe that way, way too many people (including in the GSL) try too hard to gain those small advantages, without thinking about just how much of an advantage you can get by being near perfect with production and you can play extremely safe while doing so. |
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| Heweree United Kingdom. April 27 2012 15:15. Posts 497 | Profile # |
On April 27 2012 14:30 Filter wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 13:37 TanTzoR wrote:
Another thing that surprised me, and we don't see anymore in EU is the second depot. Now it's all about, depot,rax,cc. You get your cc 20 sec earlier, you only miss 1 marine but will get ahead scv wise. You don't need to build a 3rd suppl depot (the cc finishes right when you hit 27), overall you get your 2 next rax earlier and same for the 2 gases.
Basically it puts you ahead of +30 sec, (I start my 2 gases at 4:30 while you start them at 5:10, almost the same advantages with the 2 raxes). I'm econ ahead, and with the 2 raxes being almost 30 sec earlier it compensates the 1 marine missing really easily.
The only thing it's weak against is a 3 rax allin. But I would say it's even better, because by the time he arrives your cc is finished so you can float it over, while with your 1 rax expand you would have to cancel the expand. And a 3rax is not difficult to scout.
There's a pile of reasons to get the depot first, and on the surface the CC before that depot seems to make more sense. If you look at it a bit more though you can see that the depot first is actually more beneficial, especially at lower levels. The depot first denies scouting, which means your opponent won't know if you're going fast expand or not. He can either assume (which most people do), play it safe (detection) or try to scout the CC around the 5minute mark (almost nobody does this). This actually is a good way to slow down a 6 or 7 gate push, because the protoss player needs to get a robo unless he can confirm you have a CC down. Usually by the time he figures this out he'll already have made a robo which cuts into a 7gate pretty good. Terrans need to burn a scan early enough that it won't catch anything overly valuable and zergs have to confirm the expansion with lings, they don't know if it's a hidden two rax, three rax or whatever. It's also safe vs. proxy 2gates, early pools etc. Skipping the depot doesn't speed up gas IF you still get the bunker and play it safe, the gas actually goes down at the exact same time (faster orbital delays the gas, reason it's at the same time.) You'll gain a couple scv's but thats not a big deal if you're on point with scv production anyway. I'm also just trying to teach people how to play a macro style safely, not a specific build order that's refined to the second. I prefer getting the second depot first for a huge number of reasons, and the bunker helps ensure the CC can be built on the low ground taking away the float time. If people want to go CC before that and skip the bunker they can and they can succeed with it obviously but it is a risk and it is cutting a big corner. Starcraft2 is a very complex game, and there is no right way to do things. There are however many reasons certain things are done, above and beyond small advantages. I firmly believe that way, way too many people (including in the GSL) try too hard to gain those small advantages, without thinking about just how much of an advantage you can get by being near perfect with production and you can play extremely safe while doing so.
Well at higher level if your opponent sees you're walling fast he has to know it's a 1 rax expand (if you take your gas at 13 or even double gases at 16 you can't afford this early supply). Or some sort of weird marine allin, which will be weak because you need to spend the minerals on the extra rax and not on the supply.
But I must agree, at lower level a wall already completed can confuse the opponent. So your point there.
I got it wrong indeed, I forgot about the bunker. But to get 100 extra minerals doesn't take 40 seconds, and even with the OC thing I'm pretty sure it's not the same time. It's a pity I can't play to try it out, but I really think you get a 20 sec advantage pretty easily.
For the bunker I agree, the only time I don't put it up it's against terran if I scout he fast expands. Then I just take the xel naga tower in case he does some sort of weird 5 rax no gas.
Yeah, it's really a small point and of course it doesn't really make such a difference, but perfect macro vs perfect macro you will have more stuff in the end. You were ready for my next argument that would have been that most pros do it the one supply way, but you were prepared. Well done sir, but I think you should try to go for the one supply cc.
Also a thing I noticed, you split before you produce your first SCV. I've always done it the other way around, and thought it was the best way. Is it?
I'll probably be able to play this weekend, so I'll try the timings.
Have a nice day Last edit: 2012-04-27 15:22:47 |
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| Filter Canada. April 27 2012 15:48. Posts 590 | Profile Blog # |
Somebody brought up the depot to me before, so I spent some time testing it out and found that I preferred to get it first. It's safe to assume it's a fast expand, but there are players like puma out there that double gas and cloak banshee after, so you do need to be sure. Depends on just how cocky the other player is 
I split before producing because I've spent too many games crying after stopping all my scv's when my CC didn't hotkey properly at the start. Unless you're absolutely perfect you usually end up with a supply block anyway @11 if you produce first. Either or is about the same imo, whatever's comfortable.
Thanks for the reply though, discussion is always a good thing as long as it's civil and an open minded discussion. :D |
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| Kinaesthetic United States. April 27 2012 16:52. Posts 19 | Profile # |
| Just had to sign up to say that your videos were an immense help in getting me started in SC2. I was having trouble progressing anywhere near the upper 10s in silver, but as soon as I practiced your builds, etc. and had them down fairly well (48 scvs at the 10 minute mark), I just can't stop winning. Breathed some new life into my laddering. Keep up the incredible work on your videos! |
| | Playing god......................for........god, forever. |
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| Kerm France. April 27 2012 17:15. Posts 370 | Profile # |
Just went through Bronze / Silver ones yesterday night, I have to say it's very interesting content.
Thanks for the hard work, very helpful for gold player like me Last edit: 2012-04-27 17:37:46 |
| | What i know is that I know nothing - [http://twitter.com/UncleKerm] |
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| Rimak Latvia. April 27 2012 17:38. Posts 408 | Profile # |
| Any news or ideas on toss benchmarks? |
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| Filter Canada. April 27 2012 18:23. Posts 590 | Profile Blog # |
On April 27 2012 17:38 Rimak wrote:
Any news or ideas on toss benchmarks?
Well I just played a guy that got 75 probes in 11 minutes, I was pretty impressed by that
I still need to really play around with toss to get a good feel for safely making probes. I need to crack an account into masters over a weekend with toss to start the series though. I did beat a diamond toss in an obs game pvp by fast expanding though.. |
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| BurningRanger Germany. April 27 2012 19:02. Posts 141 | Profile # |
I tried the Silver build yesterday (cos I'm still in Silver). Practiced it a few times and went on ladder with it, attacked at 10-ish minutes into a siegetank-line... well... you can guess the outcome yourself.  Yes I could have had maybe 10 more marines, if I executed it better, but the outcome would have been the same.
That got me thinking about it again. While FE'ing is well and fine to get an eco-lead very early, I'm not sure, if it's smart to tech up right then (Medivacs are Tier3, take a lot of resources to even get to produce them and then they don't have too much damage output) AND try to be aggressive.
I guess I might try something like a step inbetween the Bronze and Silver videos. 1Rax-FE into a load of Raxes with Marine/Marauder (maybe with some upgrades) until the 10minute push (maybe a little earlier) and then tech up. The push should have more power then i think.
Any comments or ideas? |
| | MMR stats ranking on http://burningranger.lima-city.de/index.php/mmrranks |
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| kezz_ Australia. April 27 2012 19:22. Posts 25 | Profile Blog # |
Filter, this video series is sensational. I was in Bronze league, found your guide, and got promoted into Silver in 4 days (after watching just the first 2 videos). I honestly believe that this is how everybody should learn the game.
On April 27 2012 19:02 BurningRanger wrote:I tried the Silver build yesterday (cos I'm still in Silver). Practiced it a few times and went on ladder with it, attacked at 10-ish minutes into a siegetank-line... well... you can guess the outcome yourself. Yes I could have had maybe 10 more marines, if I executed it better, but the outcome would have been the same. That got me thinking about it again. While FE'ing is well and fine to get an eco-lead very early, I'm not sure, if it's smart to tech up right then (Medivacs are Tier3, take a lot of resources to even get to produce them and then they don't have too much damage output) AND try to be aggressive. I guess I might try something like a step inbetween the Bronze and Silver videos. 1Rax-FE into a load of Raxes with Marine/Marauder (maybe with some upgrades) until the 10minute push (maybe a little earlier) and then tech up. The push should have more power then i think. Any comments or ideas?
Tanks are quite a strong counter to Filter's 'rule' where he only attack moves straight into the natural and then up into the main. Remember though, that you have medivacs and can drop into the opponents mineral line, doing quite significant damage while he either moves his bio army up or un-sieges some tanks, moves them and then re-sieges to protect the mineral line. Use your mobility to your advantage.
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| Dvriel April 27 2012 19:26. Posts 447 | Profile # |
Hi,Filter!
Yesterday faced Platinum T on EU Server.He used almost same BO,but after 2nd rax,took 2 gases,then 3rd rax and put addons on every rax(2 reactor+lab)and go for shield first and mass marines.Later when possible factory+starport and ebay.so he massed marines and got double as I,went for 10 min attack and won.Just cant stop it if i make Marauders and he begann making marines much sooner and much quicker,with his later tech.So,how do u stop this?Hes BO seems to reach everything much sooner,only stim later.and come just at 10:00-10:30 min with his attack. |
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