let's just focus on the scene. what kind of sport has big tournaments before and upon release, seriously? it's the equivalent of a marketing push, to hell with the actual product.
Most blizzard games did not start out a smash hit. BW was not. Neither was WoW. But eventually people discovered that those games had an X-factor, and so a scene grew around it. For SC2, it is actually the reverse. I just have to point at the ladder population trends.
There is no such thing is "e-sports". There is Brood War, and then there is crap for nerds.
densha United States. May 06 2012 14:47. Posts 797
On May 06 2012 14:21 shadymmj wrote: suppose we stop with the bw vs sc2 comparison
let's just focus on the scene. what kind of sport has big tournaments before and upon release, seriously? it's the equivalent of a marketing push, to hell with the actual product.
Most blizzard games did not start out a smash hit. BW was not. Neither was WoW. But eventually people discovered that those games had an X-factor, and so a scene grew around it. For SC2, it is actually the reverse. I just have to point at the ladder population trends.
The SC2 scene built off the BW scene, it didn't just appear out of nowhere. Day9 was doing dailies during the beta and even had that King of the Beta tournament. Day9 obviously has BW roots and I'm sure most if not all of his viewers at that time did as well. I could also name the other players and casters who came from BW in one way or another, but the list is too long and obvious so there's no point to do that here.
SC2 also did a great job in pulling in people like me who wished they could have caught up with 10 years of the BW metagame, who wished games were more easily available with English commentary, who wanted to take the opportunity to not miss out for the second time. The fact is, is that SC2 has an "X factor" as well - for some reason it really took off in the West. I'm sure many will want to just say it's because of "shiny" graphics or a better UI, but that's beside the point. SC2 has single-handedly taken competitive RTS gaming from an obscure Korean sport to an international phenomenon.
It completely sucks and it is completely unfair that the pro BW scene apparently has to die because of that, but we can only deal with what "is" and not necessarily with what we "wish". With as many passionate people as there are for BW, I'm sure the scene will live on, even if in some different form.
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.
On May 06 2012 14:21 shadymmj wrote: suppose we stop with the bw vs sc2 comparison
let's just focus on the scene. what kind of sport has big tournaments before and upon release, seriously? it's the equivalent of a marketing push, to hell with the actual product.
Most blizzard games did not start out a smash hit. BW was not. Neither was WoW. But eventually people discovered that those games had an X-factor, and so a scene grew around it. For SC2, it is actually the reverse. I just have to point at the ladder population trends.
The SC2 scene built off the BW scene, it didn't just appear out of nowhere. Day9 was doing dailies during the beta and even had that King of the Beta tournament. Day9 obviously has BW roots and I'm sure most if not all of his viewers at that time did as well. I could also name the other players and casters who came from BW in one way or another, but the list is too long and obvious so there's no point to do that here.
SC2 also did a great job in pulling in people like me who wished they could have caught up with 10 years of the BW metagame, who wished games were more easily available with English commentary, who wanted to take the opportunity to not miss out for the second time. The fact is, is that SC2 has an "X factor" as well - for some reason it really took off in the West. I'm sure many will want to just say it's because of "shiny" graphics or a better UI, but that's beside the point. SC2 has single-handedly taken competitive RTS gaming from an obscure Korean sport to an international phenomenon.
It completely sucks and it is completely unfair that the pro BW scene apparently has to die because of that, but we can only deal with what "is" and not necessarily with what we "wish". With as many passionate people as there are for BW, I'm sure the scene will live on, even if in some different form.
Actually to be honest, the current commentary by english commentators even though it's the likes of artosis and tasteless who are currently doing the casting their casting is not really that interesting . It is evident that koreans are a much a better starcraft korean commentators, Koreans commentator lash out with passion at every single explosion on screen and the way they pump you up for each match ups screaming till their lungs burn out . It's as though I am watching a rock concert I don't think english commentary has actually reach the level of korean commentators .
The things is koreans are really good at starcraft and commentary let the koreans do the job and learn to enjoy the origin of starcraft . Always if there is korean commentary available choose it and you won't be disappointed although I would like to know what the commentators are screaming about but I have got so custom to koreans commentating games that it has become a must rather than a optional thing.
International phenomenon ? Don't joke with me if you look at how LoL is growing everywhere in the globe you will feel your sc2 population being huge but if you compare it with LoL the numbers are really that small . For sc2 to only capture the west interest it's kind of bad to say that is a international phenomenon when you look at asia LoL and dota 2 are the kings of e-sport here . I can bet you that if you come to my local scene you will see kids throwing filthy words at each other playing dota and one or few players playing sc2 in a 3v3 game .
Like it or not LoL and Dota 2 are growing and if sc2 don't do something you can kiss goodbye to e-sports and sc2 and professional rts. I don't doubt sc2 looks really solid for a RTS game growing in the west and taking the scene with storm same can be said when counter strike was huge back than . But look at how the scene was torn apart when developers keep pushing out with new version of your game . Fan's get divided, hatreds are brewed between fans and it all goes to hell.
In my opinion no computer game will ever reach the status and acceptability of real life sports we are pretty much of a niche market and nothing we do is quite relevant with the real world and it's sad but I have to face reality .
Last edit: 2012-05-06 15:21:33
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
densha United States. May 06 2012 15:32. Posts 797
On May 06 2012 14:21 shadymmj wrote: suppose we stop with the bw vs sc2 comparison
let's just focus on the scene. what kind of sport has big tournaments before and upon release, seriously? it's the equivalent of a marketing push, to hell with the actual product.
Most blizzard games did not start out a smash hit. BW was not. Neither was WoW. But eventually people discovered that those games had an X-factor, and so a scene grew around it. For SC2, it is actually the reverse. I just have to point at the ladder population trends.
The SC2 scene built off the BW scene, it didn't just appear out of nowhere. Day9 was doing dailies during the beta and even had that King of the Beta tournament. Day9 obviously has BW roots and I'm sure most if not all of his viewers at that time did as well. I could also name the other players and casters who came from BW in one way or another, but the list is too long and obvious so there's no point to do that here.
SC2 also did a great job in pulling in people like me who wished they could have caught up with 10 years of the BW metagame, who wished games were more easily available with English commentary, who wanted to take the opportunity to not miss out for the second time. The fact is, is that SC2 has an "X factor" as well - for some reason it really took off in the West. I'm sure many will want to just say it's because of "shiny" graphics or a better UI, but that's beside the point. SC2 has single-handedly taken competitive RTS gaming from an obscure Korean sport to an international phenomenon.
It completely sucks and it is completely unfair that the pro BW scene apparently has to die because of that, but we can only deal with what "is" and not necessarily with what we "wish". With as many passionate people as there are for BW, I'm sure the scene will live on, even if in some different form.
Actually to be honest, the current commentary by english commentators even though it's the likes of artosis and tasteless who are currently doing the casting their casting is not really that interesting . It is evident that koreans are a much a better starcraft korean commentators, Koreans commentator lash out with passion at every single explosion on screen and the way they pump you up for each match ups screaming till their lungs burn out . It's as though I am watching a rock concert I don't think english commentary has actually reach the level of korean commentators .
The things is koreans are really good at starcraft and commentary let the koreans do the job and learn to enjoy the origin of starcraft . Always if there is korean commentary available choose it and you won't be disappointed although I would like to know what the commentators are screaming about but I have got so custom to koreans commentating games that it has become a must rather than a optional thing.
International phenomenon ? Don't joke with me if you look at how LoL is growing everywhere in the globe you will feel your sc2 population being huge but if you compare it with LoL the numbers are really that small . For sc2 to only capture the west interest it's kind of bad to say that is a international phenomenon when you look at asia LoL and dota 2 are the kings of e-sport here . I can bet you that if you come to my local scene you will see kids throwing filthy words at each other playing dota and one or few players playing sc2 in a 3v3 game .
Like it or not LoL and Dota 2 are growing and if sc2 don't do something you can kiss goodbye to e-sports and sc2 and professional rts. I don't doubt sc2 looks really solid for a RTS game growing in the west and taking the scene with storm same can be said when counter strike was huge back than . But look at how the scene was torn apart when developers keep pushing out with new version of your game . Fan's get divided, hatreds are brewed between fans and it all goes to hell.
In my opinion no computer game will ever reach the status and acceptability of real life sports we are pretty much of a niche market and nothing we do is quite relevant with the real world and it's sad but I have to face reality .
I do watch BW live when I can so I have heard the Korean commentary. It's just that I know so little about the metagame that I feel like I need everything spelled out to me, at least for now. So I'd rather hear some boring insight just so I can fully grasp the builds and the tension between them as opposed to just getting excited by hearing other excited people. I can appreciate BW games, but I don't feel I am able to at their fullest level. Since I play SC2, have been with SC2 since the beginning, and there's so much English information available, I feel I appreciate and enjoy it at a much deeper level. My fault completely, of course. I always loved BW as a game but never realized there was a pro-scene until waaaaay too late.
About LoL and other DOTA games, there's definitely no arguing with their numbers. That doesn't really bother me, though, that they are huge compared to SC2. It's kinda like MMORPGs. What I mean is, you don't have to be WoW to be a successful, profitable MMO. There's a point in subscribers where an MMO can sustain itself and be very profitable (say, 400,000). It's far from WoW's 11 million, but it's a very strong, viable community. If LoL is the WoW in that analogy, I guess SC2 would be an MMO with 2 million subscribers: better than practically every other MMO, but far from even touching WoW.
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.
Torpedo.Vegas United States. May 06 2012 15:36. Posts 1848
On May 06 2012 14:21 shadymmj wrote: suppose we stop with the bw vs sc2 comparison
let's just focus on the scene. what kind of sport has big tournaments before and upon release, seriously? it's the equivalent of a marketing push, to hell with the actual product.
Most blizzard games did not start out a smash hit. BW was not. Neither was WoW. But eventually people discovered that those games had an X-factor, and so a scene grew around it. For SC2, it is actually the reverse. I just have to point at the ladder population trends.
The SC2 scene built off the BW scene, it didn't just appear out of nowhere. Day9 was doing dailies during the beta and even had that King of the Beta tournament. Day9 obviously has BW roots and I'm sure most if not all of his viewers at that time did as well. I could also name the other players and casters who came from BW in one way or another, but the list is too long and obvious so there's no point to do that here.
SC2 also did a great job in pulling in people like me who wished they could have caught up with 10 years of the BW metagame, who wished games were more easily available with English commentary, who wanted to take the opportunity to not miss out for the second time. The fact is, is that SC2 has an "X factor" as well - for some reason it really took off in the West. I'm sure many will want to just say it's because of "shiny" graphics or a better UI, but that's beside the point. SC2 has single-handedly taken competitive RTS gaming from an obscure Korean sport to an international phenomenon.
It completely sucks and it is completely unfair that the pro BW scene apparently has to die because of that, but we can only deal with what "is" and not necessarily with what we "wish". With as many passionate people as there are for BW, I'm sure the scene will live on, even if in some different form.
Actually to be honest, the current commentary by english commentators even though it's the likes of artosis and tasteless who are currently doing the casting their casting is not really that interesting . It is evident that koreans are a much a better starcraft korean commentators, Koreans commentator lash out with passion at every single explosion on screen and the way they pump you up for each match ups screaming till their lungs burn out . It's as though I am watching a rock concert I don't think english commentary has actually reach the level of korean commentators .
The things is koreans are really good at starcraft and commentary let the koreans do the job and learn to enjoy the origin of starcraft . Always if there is korean commentary available choose it and you won't be disappointed although I would like to know what the commentators are screaming about but I have got so custom to koreans commentating games that it has become a must rather than a optional thing.
International phenomenon ? Don't joke with me if you look at how LoL is growing everywhere in the globe you will feel your sc2 population being huge but if you compare it with LoL the numbers are really that small . For sc2 to only capture the west interest it's kind of bad to say that is a international phenomenon when you look at asia LoL and dota 2 are the kings of e-sport here . I can bet you that if you come to my local scene you will see kids throwing filthy words at each other playing dota and one or few players playing sc2 in a 3v3 game .
Like it or not LoL and Dota 2 are growing and if sc2 don't do something you can kiss goodbye to e-sports and sc2 and professional rts. I don't doubt sc2 looks really solid for a RTS game growing in the west and taking the scene with storm same can be said when counter strike was huge back than . But look at how the scene was torn apart when developers keep pushing out with new version of your game . Fan's get divided, hatreds are brewed between fans and it all goes to hell.
In my opinion no computer game will ever reach the status and acceptability of real life sports we are pretty much of a niche market and nothing we do is quite relevant with the real world and it's sad but I have to face reality .
You can have more than one game be a successful competition. Soccer doesn't kill Football, or Baseball taking away from Basketball. The problem comes in when they are not enough distinguishing factors, like 2 RTS games for example. It will be LoL or DotA2 btw. Or it will be a split with Asia taking one and the west taking the other or something like that. They are going to cannabalize each other if they try to exist in the same market going after identical fans.
Although, based my memory of your kind of posts in these sorts of topic, you really don't like SC2 at all, which is fine. But it makes it harder for people to distinguish your real arguments from the hate.
On May 06 2012 14:21 shadymmj wrote: suppose we stop with the bw vs sc2 comparison
let's just focus on the scene. what kind of sport has big tournaments before and upon release, seriously? it's the equivalent of a marketing push, to hell with the actual product.
Most blizzard games did not start out a smash hit. BW was not. Neither was WoW. But eventually people discovered that those games had an X-factor, and so a scene grew around it. For SC2, it is actually the reverse. I just have to point at the ladder population trends.
The SC2 scene built off the BW scene, it didn't just appear out of nowhere. Day9 was doing dailies during the beta and even had that King of the Beta tournament. Day9 obviously has BW roots and I'm sure most if not all of his viewers at that time did as well. I could also name the other players and casters who came from BW in one way or another, but the list is too long and obvious so there's no point to do that here.
SC2 also did a great job in pulling in people like me who wished they could have caught up with 10 years of the BW metagame, who wished games were more easily available with English commentary, who wanted to take the opportunity to not miss out for the second time. The fact is, is that SC2 has an "X factor" as well - for some reason it really took off in the West. I'm sure many will want to just say it's because of "shiny" graphics or a better UI, but that's beside the point. SC2 has single-handedly taken competitive RTS gaming from an obscure Korean sport to an international phenomenon.
It completely sucks and it is completely unfair that the pro BW scene apparently has to die because of that, but we can only deal with what "is" and not necessarily with what we "wish". With as many passionate people as there are for BW, I'm sure the scene will live on, even if in some different form.
Actually to be honest, the current commentary by english commentators even though it's the likes of artosis and tasteless who are currently doing the casting their casting is not really that interesting . It is evident that koreans are a much a better starcraft korean commentators, Koreans commentator lash out with passion at every single explosion on screen and the way they pump you up for each match ups screaming till their lungs burn out . It's as though I am watching a rock concert I don't think english commentary has actually reach the level of korean commentators .
The things is koreans are really good at starcraft and commentary let the koreans do the job and learn to enjoy the origin of starcraft . Always if there is korean commentary available choose it and you won't be disappointed although I would like to know what the commentators are screaming about but I have got so custom to koreans commentating games that it has become a must rather than a optional thing.
International phenomenon ? Don't joke with me if you look at how LoL is growing everywhere in the globe you will feel your sc2 population being huge but if you compare it with LoL the numbers are really that small . For sc2 to only capture the west interest it's kind of bad to say that is a international phenomenon when you look at asia LoL and dota 2 are the kings of e-sport here . I can bet you that if you come to my local scene you will see kids throwing filthy words at each other playing dota and one or few players playing sc2 in a 3v3 game .
Like it or not LoL and Dota 2 are growing and if sc2 don't do something you can kiss goodbye to e-sports and sc2 and professional rts. I don't doubt sc2 looks really solid for a RTS game growing in the west and taking the scene with storm same can be said when counter strike was huge back than . But look at how the scene was torn apart when developers keep pushing out with new version of your game . Fan's get divided, hatreds are brewed between fans and it all goes to hell.
In my opinion no computer game will ever reach the status and acceptability of real life sports we are pretty much of a niche market and nothing we do is quite relevant with the real world and it's sad but I have to face reality .
I do watch BW live when I can so I have heard the Korean commentary. It's just that I know so little about the metagame that I feel like I need everything spelled out to me, at least for now. So I'd rather hear some boring insight just so I can fully grasp the builds and the tension between them as opposed to just getting excited by hearing other excited people. I can appreciate BW games, but I don't feel I am able to at their fullest level. Since I play SC2, have been with SC2 since the beginning, and there's so much English information available, I feel I appreciate and enjoy it at a much deeper level. My fault completely, of course. I always loved BW as a game but never realized there was a pro-scene until waaaaay too late.
About LoL and other DOTA games, there's definitely no arguing with their numbers. That doesn't really bother me, though, that they are huge compared to SC2. It's kinda like MMORPGs. What I mean is, you don't have to be WoW to be a successful, profitable MMO. There's a point in subscribers where an MMO can sustain itself and be very profitable (say, 400,000). It's far from WoW's 11 million, but it's a very strong, viable community. If LoL is the WoW in that analogy, I guess SC2 would be an MMO with 2 million subscribers: better than practically every other MMO, but far from even touching WoW.
The thing is when LoL and moba games are threatening your scene you should be worried because in the end the analogy doesn't work when people consider LoL and Dota 2 as RTS games . Well if you put it in a MMO analogy like you said for example LoL it's pretty much sustainable actually players who actually pay money get better heroes and other access easily and with that being said it probably will reach more than just 11 millions given time since WoW has been around for a long time ..
You can't say that sc2 is a MMO because you have to purchase the game and because of that it is a totally different ball game compared to Dota2 and LoL are for free since the day you install the game . The thing is the korean's don't just crazily go excited for no reason, if you think korean commentaries are just about "Plagueee ,REABEr, PActory " than you are pretty wrong . If you are a korean native and you are able to understand what they are saying their analysis and commentary are really really deep and I mean it .
Even as a player I am astonished at things that I didn't know and compared to your usual english commentary which usually talk about the same boring thing " players is building x, getting upgrade y and going to z " it's really making me hit my head on the wall because I can see what's happening on screen they don't have to tell me . They actually are analysing what the players are doing at the moment and even give predictions that if " Fantasy attacks now he will win, Jangbi has to stop this push or he loses the game and etc ... "
I can't blame you when wc3 and other games are pretty much more popular than broodwar back than and most of the casual's only considered that broodwar as an old archaic game that no longer is relevant right now because it's too hard to understand and it's bad graphics . If you want to appreciate broodwar at the fullest level you have to play the game yourself and learning starcraft is pretty much like learning abc and elementary level of intelligent is all needed to play the game however if you want to appreciate it at a high level you have to at least play the game at it's highest level . C+ to B rank maybe ?
If you find it hard to picture about why I am praising the korean commentators really highly than take a look at a subtitle game done by Jpak which is the osl 2011 and read the translated commentaries everything they commentated on is actually relevant and each burst of passion they unleashed are actually quite reasonable as a fact . I am really doubting why I am not born as a korean right now ^_^.
Last edit: 2012-05-06 15:56:31
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
sCCrooked Korea (South). May 06 2012 16:12. Posts 1113
I think when I start doing commentary again, I'm going to try drinking like 3 humongous energy drinks before each cast to see if I can match the level of energy the Korean commentators bring. Seriously.
Follow the yellow brick road and you'll find whoever is f*cking with you.
On May 06 2012 04:07 Taku wrote: Not unprecedented, Boxer and the others were the trailblazers in setting up an established scene with BW, and did it way more efficiently through sweat and blood rather than just having suits throw money at people.
I think the Koreans playing SC2 work just as hard as their BW counterparts. Most of them came from the BW scene anyway and run their practice houses in the same way.
i doubt it. The SC2 from the BW scene are just the people who failed at the BW scene (probably for not trying as hard). The best person right now from BW is MVP, whose greatest accomplishment in recent time was the hanadaetoo ro8.
failed is not the right term here, some of them just past their prime due to ages, u can't say that boxer and nada failed in BW, come on...
Point is code S player list is like looking at OSL prelims list for a lot of us.
Aren't top tier players like Bisu in the OSL prelims?
LOL poor Bisu.
supernovamaniac United States. May 06 2012 16:48. Posts 2232
On May 06 2012 16:12 sCCrooked wrote: I think when I start doing commentary again, I'm going to try drinking like 3 humongous energy drinks before each cast to see if I can match the level of energy the Korean commentators bring. Seriously.
Just feel the game.
sCCrooked Korea (South). May 06 2012 16:56. Posts 1113
On May 06 2012 16:12 sCCrooked wrote: I think when I start doing commentary again, I'm going to try drinking like 3 humongous energy drinks before each cast to see if I can match the level of energy the Korean commentators bring. Seriously.
Just feel the game.
Oh I feel it alright! I just can't maintain that kind of volume/energy for as long as they do. The A/B tourneys were easily 4-6 hour casts and some of the independent broadcasts I did were even longer. It DOES eventually cause headaches if you yell too much!!
Follow the yellow brick road and you'll find whoever is f*cking with you.
The knowledge of the korean commentators always blew my mind, i remember watching the TL bw VODs and thinking these koreans make it sooo much more awesome, but when i watch a subbed game HOLYSHIT
theres so much i didnt know! like i learnt when u scout expansions u can click on the mineral patches to get an estimate of how long its been up (i'm sure everyone knows that now, but back then i never would have thought of that just listening(reading the subs) helps u learn so much about the game, map, player.
I also read somewhere i cant remember where, that the korean commentators spend a TON of time researching players reviewing games, talking to coachs and players to get more knowledge...its just so amazing
The day before christmas my true love gave to me: Teamliquid | [23:55] <Shock710> that was out of context -_-
The problem I see with the end of professional broodwar in Korea, is that there will be no more awesome maps made for the leagues there... Warcraft 3 was always a bit stale for me, because they kept using the same maps over and over again, and I don't want Broodwar to become like this. Luckily enough, we have good mapmakers in the community, so I hope it will live on.
On May 06 2012 01:03 shadymmj wrote: i have zero respect for "gamer nerds" and don't consider myself one; just someone who likes to watch a funny little phenomenon in korea. it's great entertainment and also a very complex game that happens to have a big pro scene. it's like the football of video games, and i also love watching football (english, not american).
see, the thing is that football does not get replaced with football 2, with new offside rules, 12 players to a team and an oddly shaped ball. that is the meaning of a sport. the fundamental rules stay the same. neither are sports primarily created to be watched. they are created to be played.
those are the rules that sc2 broke and those are the reasons that will eventually cause its downfall. im willing to bet that if sc2 did not have starcraft in it, it'd probably sell less than half the copies. gamer nerds get very excited over new games made by big names, shiny graphics, and are constantly showing off their colourful keyboards. they spend a lot of time on many different games. for that reason they will keep hopping on whatever new bandwagon that passes by, and no amount of expansions will halt the advancement of new, shinier bandwagons.
it's sad that the world can no longer appreciate a classic thing. BW had the potential to become immortal like chess, but maybe blizzard and kespa failed to do something about it. while it lasted, BW was not a "esport" like they say, but a REAL sport unique to korea that had its own culture.
oh well. instead of partaking in senseless stupidity like "esports" *cough marketing machines*, id rather drive to the movies, read a book or something.
SC2 is more than shiny graphics and a big name. Don't forget that there is a TON of money involved right now and that's something that is rather unprecedented. Maybe my eSports history is lacking, but SC2 seems unique in the amount of tournaments it has spawned, the amount of prize money involved, and the amount of spectators watching (at least in the RTS genre for the last point). It just seems much bigger than some new shiny game when you look at the competitive culture that has grown around it in just two years.
I mourn the loss of BW too and am not trying to say you have to enjoy SC2, but I think it's more and more difficult to say SC2 is a passing fad or is only popular because of it's graphics (which aren't even that good compared to other modern games) when looking at the amount of people, organizations, and just plain money involved with it.
this money was dumped into the scene without knowing what exactly would happen next. the difference is that BW's scene attracted the sponsors. SC2's sponsors attracted the scene.
which is the model you see in sports? did football gain a fanbase first, or rich sponsors first?
I don't quite understand what's the conclusion of your argument. Are you saying that SC2 will quickly lose popularity and collapse?
He is saying it was a scene not built around the game but the idea of ESPORTS. Nothing was said about the quality of the game.
What does that even mean? Do you mean that SC2 was built to be competitive but not fun? If so, I would argue that SC2 is more accessible to casual/semi-casual gamers than Brood War.
Investing heavily on the hope that it will get better later on makes no sense.
Switching to a new game without knowing if it is fit for competition makes no sense. Playing a game competitively while it is being patched is sketchy considering blizzard only has a good balancing record with BW. Using win rates under a match making system to judge blanace is honestly one of the most retarded thing I've heard about. No one should fail this hard at logic.
Telling people to spend even more time on sc2 and wait for it to become better makes absolutely no sense.
Having tournaments without LAN is ridiculously stupid. One of the first tournaments I went to got ip banned by Blizzard because of some technical screw up.
During the early stages of sc2 everything was done because people assumed it would become like BW in Korea. A lot of the hype for casuals was that they getting a head start on a game that might become BW. No one waited to see if the game was interesting before dumping ridculous amounts of effort into the community. This is refering to the early days of the game before it was patched and everyone was bitching about sc2 strongly favouring stupid play.
Putting effort into going pro at this point in time is a hell of a lot more sensible than before. The amount of crap happening at luanch was just people getting hyped.
Huh? The win rates are based on tournament games listed under the TLPD, ie. a tournament where money is on the line and worthwhile enough for the TL staff to bookkeep. In the most recent month, every matchup is within 48.8%-51.2% with a sample size of 2000+ games, which I would argue is a pretty good balance in the current state. It has nothing to do with matchmaking.
I'm talking about back then Blizzard would point at figures on the ladder and tell us the game was balanced. I don't think I need to point out the problem here. There are also other problems with just using win rates because if you assume that some optimal balance exist indepeendent of all other variables, e.g maps, skill level etc etc then maps shouldn't be a problem.
There are also other tecnical issues like just using a single figure to indicate balance. That would not be how you analyse these things anyway. Generally you would assume the game is balanced and then get an interval of where the win rate should be based on the number of games and then compare that with an actual winrate. 52% might actually indicate imbalance.
If I recall correctly, that was a report by Blizzard saying that races were getting good representation in tourneys AND at different ranks in ladder. They were trying to say that their was no immediate concern of imbalance in pro and low level play.
Win rates don't prove balance, but it's evidence. Having watched many games, I would say balance is fine right now.
Balance isn't really the issue with SC2, not anymore. It's about the type of play that makes for enjoyable viewing. In my opinion it's constantly getting better and moving towards what we want, but it's not there yet. It's still incredibly enjoyable as is in my opinion.
On May 06 2012 12:47 1Eris1 wrote: Please go post about BW vs SC2 in one of the 603 other threads dedicated to it. Seriously, can't there at least be one place I don't have to see this shit?
To be fair, in a thread like this the topic is intrinsically tied. Many people feel like SC2 is the reason BW is ending in Korea and harbor bitter feelings towards it. I came to this thread to talk about the BW scene and to learn what the pillars of the TL community plan on doing in the future, but I see no reason why it's unacceptable to respond to some of the opinions here.
On May 06 2012 14:21 shadymmj wrote: suppose we stop with the bw vs sc2 comparison
let's just focus on the scene. what kind of sport has big tournaments before and upon release, seriously? it's the equivalent of a marketing push, to hell with the actual product.
Most blizzard games did not start out a smash hit. BW was not. Neither was WoW. But eventually people discovered that those games had an X-factor, and so a scene grew around it. For SC2, it is actually the reverse. I just have to point at the ladder population trends.
The scene may have been jump started but there is plenty of evidence suggesting that it is capable of sustaining itself. Stream views for individual players are a decent indication, so are the youtube casting scenes. And as for the ladder numbers, SC2 is still extremely popular. And you're right about BW growing organically. That's why it was magical. It's what was required in order to start a culture of esports. But you're fooling yourself if you don't think that the pro scene had something to do with keeping the game popular in Korea as far as gaming goes. And even then, I remember seeing threads on TL about the huge drop in popularity of BW in PC bangs.
On May 06 2012 16:12 sCCrooked wrote: I think when I start doing commentary again, I'm going to try drinking like 3 humongous energy drinks before each cast to see if I can match the level of energy the Korean commentators bring. Seriously.
Just feel the game.
Oh I feel it alright! I just can't maintain that kind of volume/energy for as long as they do. The A/B tourneys were easily 4-6 hour casts and some of the independent broadcasts I did were even longer. It DOES eventually cause headaches if you yell too much!!
I imagine that so much of that has to do with the level of professionalism in Korea regarding esports. I've watched a lot of the BW youtube casters and it's not like they love the game any less. There isn't a career in BW casting for foreigners so they do it purely for the love of the game. But if there was money involved you would start to see better commentators popping up.
Last edit: 2012-05-06 19:02:14
Darksoldierr Hungary. May 06 2012 19:32. Posts 1900
On May 06 2012 14:21 shadymmj wrote: suppose we stop with the bw vs sc2 comparison
let's just focus on the scene. what kind of sport has big tournaments before and upon release, seriously? it's the equivalent of a marketing push, to hell with the actual product.
Most blizzard games did not start out a smash hit. BW was not. Neither was WoW. But eventually people discovered that those games had an X-factor, and so a scene grew around it. For SC2, it is actually the reverse. I just have to point at the ladder population trends.
Actually there is a video about Mike Morhime saying that WoW started out better than W3 and that completly suprised them since they wasn't ready for such a good start.
What do humans know of our pain? We have sung songs of lament since before your ancestors crawled on their bellies from the sea.
On May 06 2012 17:19 Shock710 wrote: The knowledge of the korean commentators always blew my mind, i remember watching the TL bw VODs and thinking these koreans make it sooo much more awesome, but when i watch a subbed game HOLYSHIT
theres so much i didnt know! like i learnt when u scout expansions u can click on the mineral patches to get an estimate of how long its been up (i'm sure everyone knows that now, but back then i never would have thought of that just listening(reading the subs) helps u learn so much about the game, map, player.
I also read somewhere i cant remember where, that the korean commentators spend a TON of time researching players reviewing games, talking to coachs and players to get more knowledge...its just so amazing
This. A lot of current casters are mostly kids who never went to college and/or don't have a working mindset. I would bet none of them spend 8h a day researching the players, strategies, tournament results, playing the game, and so on.
I think all casters would improve their casting a ton, if they did like Nal_rA. A couple of months practicing full time in a team enviroment, as if they were to qualify for really hard tournament.
The "play-by-play" casting for me is just an unconscious excuse not to work more, because you can talk to newbies as long as you explain whatever you need in a simple way. Actually, it is said, that the more you know about a subject, the more simply you can explain it. In other words, someone who can't explain something simply, doesn't understand it well enough. I think these are words from Einstein if i'm not mistaken.
Concerning LoL's competition, a free well made team game with a much much better designed UI, really stomps a paid game, mainly 1v1 with a really bad UI that makes you feel lonely and angry all the time. A lot of people don't think SC2 is worth 50€. And even more don't think the expansion is worth almost the same.
I will probably quit gaming completely after BW dies.
Tried SC2 from Beta, it sucked, so well yea, all the good things come to an end.
"It is morally unethical for people to like bad things. [...], murder, child pornography, The Jersey Shore, The Heart of the Swarm storyline, all these things should be shunned by humanity and to do otherwise is hurtful to everyone." - Gatesleeper
It is interesting to see how this has hit the SC community. Coming from a fighting game background the games change over time. It was just inevitable, the genre got so popular that new games came out and the community moved on. It was such a fluid thing (sans the dead period) that the community didn't see a new game as a bad thing, the competition remained, the genre persisted and people followed players moreso than the games themselves.
There were always the diehard fans who stuck to whatever game they liked (which honestly often was the first game that drew them into the scene).
Personally I was new to all of this, my brother was the one into the SC scene since broodwar. I got in with SC2 and now appreciate the other games--even though I admit to not understanding all the intricacies. For the newbies like me I think the transition is exciting because I get to see all of these old legends come to collide with the current world of SC2.
It's always sucks to see your favorite game go, but often something comes along to keep your interest. SC2 may be more casual friendly, but the expansions invariably will have to layer on new complexities if they are expanding the amount of units and if any gameplay tweaks happen. The complexity may not reach BW, but still, it's going to be different than it is now, and that can be exciting too (in a scary way).
So if BW calls it quits, I'll just keep on watching as a fan of the genre. That may not satisfy everyone, but it'll do for me.
On May 03 2012 12:07 Taku wrote: Honestly the only way for me to even consider following into SC2 would be for Blizzard to make a public statement admitting that they failed and messed up the entire Starcraft franchise with sc2. I don't hold much of a grudge against the scene itself but I just can't stand Blizzard anymore.
pretty much. Fuck Blizzard nowadays. I've been a bliz fanboy since d1 and thought I'd always be. Then they took a big fat dump on my face
EDIT: im a corsair ><
i kind of agree.. yet i know ill be hopelessly addicted and allured by d3 genius.. i think to describe them in general: blizz is still very good like old days, but a different kind of good. now its devious, twisted form of good, where they suck us in with raw knowledge of how human brain addiction mechanics work, rather than creating godly gameplay
That is the biggest bullshit i seen so far from threads like this, you win good sir
That shit was hilarious! I just got fruit juice all over my shirt!
"They drone drone drone , me win" - JangMinChul(Iron/oGsMC)
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Firereaver India. May 07 2012 04:34. Posts 1687
