Wheel of Fortune Mini Mafia - Page 32

On April 27 2012 10:24 marvellosity wrote:

Because having been called out on his weirdness, he just got trollier, more destructive, and more unhelpful as time went on.

His behaviour just deteriorated to the point where "he's done stuff like this before" stops flying.

After a point I cannot fathom a town motivation for how he continued to behave

Townies do the ALL THE TIME

I just don't get why you thought my town-read was so baffling, when after Day 1 you had a town read yourself on Zentor.

marvellosity United Kingdom. April 27 2012 10:38. Posts 11366

I've just explained why, I'm not going to repeat myself.

I disagree with myself - kushm4sta

Radfield

Canada. April 27 2012 10:40. Posts 2680

Cool, I thought maybe you were just clarifying your own read. It doesn't really matter though, as I don't really think you're scum right now.

Snarfs Canada. April 27 2012 10:43. Posts 764

On April 27 2012 10:02 Radfield wrote:

This is some weak weak sauce Snarfs. I have been trying to find scum too, and Zentor impinged not one bit on my abilities to do so. Why is VE at the top of your scum list? Who else do you see as scum right now? Who is unlynchablely town in your eyes(and why)?

On April 27 2012 08:12 Radfield wrote:
A bluelightz lynch will get us no more info than a zentor lynch did. Ask yourself Ace, have we really learned anything from lynching Zentor? Almost every mislynch you learn a tremendous amount of information... unless of course you pick some weak townie who's hardly playing and everyone piles on. There is going to be very little to discern scum from town on the zentor wagon(though I imagine scum were not the ones pushing hard for his lynch).

Please don't try and undermine my saying something that you completely agree with. MrZentor provided an extremely easy wagon for scum to do whatever the hell they wanted with.

VE is at the top of my list because:
A) I find everyone voting for a mislynch day 1 suspicious
B) I found VE's not voting particularly suspicious because he said that he would be fine lynching marv until your conveniently placed idea (convenient from his point of view)
C) I still have no idea why he is so much more convinced that Sbrubbles is more scummy than phagga or marv or Ace
D) His level of care for this game seems about 1/4 what I would expect from a town-VE

I'm also highly considering Ace as scum because of his attempt to setup Bluelightz for tomorrow which I think is absolutely ridiculous. The only thing he has going for him, in my opinion, is the green check which you made on him. Zentor was an easy lynch, day 1 was an easy no-lynch, and Bluelightz is always an easy target for scum to throw suspicion on.

I would also consider one of marv/phagga/sbrubbles scum, but their play needs to be scrutinized more closely before I can definitely place them. However, sbrubbles would be most likely to be town out of that group, marv/phagga is still a tossup for me.

I wouldn't lynch yourself, prplhz, or Forumite. prplhz and Forumite because they went after MrZentor extremely hard the entire game and I don't think scum would do that because it looks terrible when he flips town. You, because you're trying hard to find scum... and the whole cop thing.

That leaves Bluelightz and strongandbig. strongandbig's probably town and Bluelightz is actually putting in a lot of effort this game so I'd keep him around because if he's scum he'll crumble when his scumbuddy/ies start dying.

Anything else?

marvellosity United Kingdom. April 27 2012 10:44. Posts 11366

On April 27 2012 10:40 Radfield wrote:
Cool, I thought maybe you were just clarifying your own read. It doesn't really matter though, as I don't really think you're scum right now.

I went back to clarify my own thoughts on what I posted, the third mention of Zentor being:

On April 23 2012 21:40 marvellosity wrote:

For now I would say it could sound somewhat scummy, but more information is required. From what I know of Zentor I reckon it more likely that he would be belligerent/odd as town than scum. This is NOT saying he has a free pass to do stupid stuff, just opinion on what he's done so far.

My opinion was that he was probably more likely to be odd/beligerent as town. The bit in bold is what helps to explain my subsequent stance on Zentor.

If this is how he plays town now, then he's just awful. Because it was so bad.

Bluelightz can be all over the place, but his play as town is never wilfully abrasive or malicious.

I disagree with myself - kushm4sta

marvellosity United Kingdom. April 27 2012 10:51. Posts 11366

On April 27 2012 10:43 Snarfs wrote:

I disagree with this line of reasoning. Going after Zentor hard this game has been a very easy thing to do and him flipping town is almost irrelevant to this after the content of his posts.

I disagree with myself - kushm4sta

Ace United States. April 27 2012 10:55. Posts 13535

On April 27 2012 10:35 Radfield wrote:

First two are just you stating Zentor didn't care about defending himself, which he obviously didn't. No one can dispute that(though bluelightz actually tries

).

The third has some points, though mainly just conjecture about Zentor's actions.

The thing is, bluelightz defended Zentor long before his lynch was assured, and also actually responded to two of your posts that you linked. Eventually he just stops focusing on Zentor as his lynch was pretty much assured, and moves on to looking for scum. A completely appropriate and townie thing to do. He never just barges in and calls everyone stupid for voting an obvious townie, nor does he try to set himself up to look good after Zentor's death. He simply refuses to vote for someone he has a town read on. I don't get why you think that is scummy.

Ok let me try this again.

BL shows up "defending" Mr.Zentor's lynch long before it happens. However, he never talks about why Zentor must be Town. I don't see it in any of his posts so if they are there show me. It's literally "I dont think a Townie would do this" which isn't a real defense. If he REALLY thinks Zentor is innocent why would he not destroy any of the posts against him? He didn't. This is why I said he comes off as Scum knowing Zentor is innocent ahead of time. He looks like he's defending Zentor but he really isn't.

The second bolded doesn't make him Town. "Looking for Scum" is subjective as even Scum can look for Scum. I don't think you are looking at the big picture here. Once again, look at the chain of events the way they went down. Once you showed up with a post on VE, BL shows up with a 19 minutes later with a post calling out a Scum team of VE, Forumite and phagga.

His next post after that is calling out Sbrubbles as Scum. He even tries to throw me in there and says me and Sbrubbles must be talking in QT.

That's 5 players in not even a quarter of a day that he calls out before Zentor is even flipped and you want to believe he was actually Scum hunting. Seriously this is very simple: If he truly believed Zentor was Town and he is also Town then why would he focus his efforts on calling out 5 other players instead of saving Zentor? He had ample time. He also should know that calling 5 players out isn't going to lead to all of them voting for whoever he thinks is Scum. This was a feigned attempt to look like he was defending a player and attempting to find Scum when he did neither.

No sir I fully get it, however unless I can unlaunch my nuke there is not much we can do about it. I also wasn't posting as much because I didn't fully read the rules yet LOL! - RebirthofLegend in WaW Mafia

Radfield

Canada. April 27 2012 11:01. Posts 2680

I agree Marv. Zentors play this game was pretty poor. I'd like to hope that he was in the process of picking up his game though.

Snarfs, I agree with most of that. Keep in mind as well that if this is actually a 2 scum(1 godfather) game, my dt check means pretty much nothing.

Does anyone disagree with my setup assessment? With zero claimed roleblocks and no SK, I think we can safely assume that we have 1 goon 1 godfather and 1 power role.

Snarfs Canada. April 27 2012 11:05. Posts 764

On April 27 2012 10:51 marvellosity wrote:

I disagree with this line of reasoning. Going after Zentor hard this game has been a very easy thing to do and him flipping town is almost irrelevant to this after the content of his posts.

That's a good point. I'm going to go back later tonight/tomorrow and check the timings of the prods/attacks and see if I get a different feeling. From what I recall though, they both seemed to attack him pretty early and pushed for his lynched quite hard day 1 which, if it had been successful, would have put them in the spotlight quite dramatically.

Snarfs Canada. April 27 2012 11:10. Posts 764

On April 27 2012 11:01 Radfield wrote:
Does anyone disagree with my setup assessment? With zero claimed roleblocks and no SK, I think we can safely assume that we have 1 goon 1 godfather and 1 power role.

I don't like putting too much weight into setup speculation. Bugs is neither going to confirm nor deny how many scum we have. Whether we have 2 or 3 mafia, we still need to start by lynching 2.

Ace United States. April 27 2012 11:24. Posts 13535

So anyone going to respond to my post up there?

Bluelightz Indonesia. April 27 2012 16:04. Posts 2327

Ace, did you even read my fucking filter? I feel really YOU ARE SCUM, you aren't even bothering to even check that I tried my fucking hardest to defend Zentor with the reason's on why I felt he was town, I saw that it was fucking hopeless because why? No one even bothered to check my reason 'Oh, its bluelightz, his reasons are preety fucking stupid so let's ignore this guy's reason, Zentor is super scummy anyway'. After that, I started poking and prodding people for reads, for example Snarfs & s&B i thought were town after their responses.

Also, WTF? what the hell is wrong with poking at 5 people? Do you want me to tunnel ho ho on easy as crap targets even after thinking they are town after their initial response?(Not brubbles) I said Zentor is town and so I didn't vote him, I saw his play was very similar to SoAF so I believed he was town, What is wrong with this?. I put effort into this game, I don't want to lose it.

brubbles is scum, I will push him tommorow.

Roses Are Red, Violets Are Blue, Radiation Is Good Because Nuclear bombs go BOOM | I love TL Mafia! ♥ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31 ♥| Mvp is most boss

Bluelightz Indonesia. April 27 2012 16:10. Posts 2327

Adding to my above post:

Ace, I learned this saying "Don't say No if you dont have a replacement to the original decision". Would you continue defending Zentor as you saw a whopping 9 fucking votes on him? Oh, your scum so you don't care about Zentor's innocence and just push easy lynches, and I quote "Its your problem if you can't realize if he's town", I think your putting zero effort into pushing town objectives, you kept on pushing Zentor but you didn't even put an iota of effort into trying to read his meta, Zentor tried to help, he posted his reads on everyone, he tried but you all just said "omg his self-voting schemes are too scummy he has to be fucking scum".

@Snarfs could I have your reason on why sbrubbles is more liely to be town?

Clarification, I'm now fairly sure that Ace is scum and might push him tommorow instead of brubbles.

Roses Are Red, Violets Are Blue, Radiation Is Good Because Nuclear bombs go BOOM | I love TL Mafia! ♥ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31 ♥| Mvp is most boss

Snarfs Canada. April 27 2012 16:59. Posts 764

On April 27 2012 16:10 Bluelightz wrote:
@Snarfs could I have your reason on why sbrubbles is more liely to be town?

This quote only makes sense from scum if they're planning on fake-claiming mason. Otherwise, they are encouraging dt checks into their own group:

If the masons do decide to claim, though, I don't think we should waste town powers confirming them.

This quote here shows some actual attempt at scum hunting, trying to discern prplhz's alignment:

Prplhz, you're being pretty quiet, which is a bit strange considering your early hustle with MrZentor. Forumite made a case on him and wants him lynched; can you comment on it? What do you think of MrZentor? Would you vote for him?

Again, he tries to figure out the alignment of another player:

Radfield, you are the one looking the most suspicious to me right now....

His next post, here, is again trying to push Radfield and VisceraEyes. I read it as a clear attempt to gauge the play of these to players. Nothing about it seems faked.

This post, here, again, although he is voting for MrZentor, he is attempting to find more scum. He is questioning VE and marvellosity, not just content to lynch the now known town, MrZentor.

Finally, here he is willing to switch his vote from MrZentor to VE. Why would scum care about that if they already know MrZentor is town?

On April 26 2012 21:15 Sbrubbles wrote:

Actually no you didn't. You didn't answer my question at all. I'm not sure you even READ it. Let me rephrase it for you.

Radfield's post:

+ Show Spoiler +

Notice how it says nothing about either 1) marv's meta, 2) marv's innocence, 3) marv's previous games or 4) prefering a no-lynch to lynching someone. In fact, he even considers lynching marv as an option, though he changes his mind later. He didn't "feel like forcing through a mediocre candidade", but that only means he didn't want to be the one pushing for marv.

How can someone saying "I'm fine with a marvellosity lynch" lead you to rethinking about lynching him???

+ Show Spoiler +

Also, I DID comment on MrZentor. You're the one not reading through the thread. But here's a hint for you.

##unvote MrZentor
##vote VisceraEyes

I'll go back to MrZentor if it's necessary for a majority.

All these things lead me to believe quite reasonably that sbrubbles is town.

Bluelightz Indonesia. April 27 2012 17:21. Posts 2327

Snarfs, the 'Sbrubbles is scumhunting' quotes are first, getting someone else's opinion on stuff(Like what im doin with asking you on why you think brubbles is town), second quote, brubbles could just be really throwing random reads to 'look' like he's contributing.

Anyway, rethinking brubbles I guess.

Roses Are Red, Violets Are Blue, Radiation Is Good Because Nuclear bombs go BOOM | I love TL Mafia! ♥ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31 ♥| Mvp is most boss

phagga Switzerland. April 27 2012 17:32. Posts 1052

Where the wild ~~roses~~ scum grows:

VE: He is my next top suspect, which is probably not very surprising. I already was suspicious of him on D1. I wrote back then that I got the feeling he improved, this changed again on D2. Several good points have been made about him, I'm not gonna reiterate everything. He looks extremely unmotivated through the whole game. He has almost only delivered thoughts on players when asked for it, and his change of play is so absurdely different from what we're used from him that I doubt he really is town.

prplhz: He is suspicious at least. Had Zentor turned scum, he would have been semi-confirmed town after tunneling him so hard. Now it's possible he just used it as an excuse to not participate in scum hunting D2. He voted Snarfs on D1 without any reason after attacking Zentor already.
+ Show Spoiler +

Also note how he was active at game start, but then gradually got less active, and has been lurking almost all of D2 (his last post is over 30 hours old). All this together make him suspicious for me, but it's not enough to lynch him today. I really look forward to hear some scum suspects from him including some reasoning why.

Marv: From staying under the radar to blatantly sheeping Ace, he has pretty much not put any effort into finding scum. His case on Radfield centered around Rad defending Zentor. I know people say he is a good late game player, but that's also a great excuse for a scum to just do nothing the first 3 days until it's almost too late for town. Also, there is quite some material of every player to analyze, so I don't really see why he should not try to come up with is own reads by now.

Concerning Bluelightz: Besides sbrubbles he is the only one I have played several games with (Werewolves 2, Aperture and Bastard). The way he is putting effort in this game seems rather townish to me. While I do see Aces point about Bluelightz switching targets and therefore risking to derail the discussion, I rather think that this is Bluelightz not thinking twice about what effects his behaviour has (see DFM2 for an extreme example), or overthinking what effects his behaviour has. In my experience, when he is active like this and when some effort is visible, he is probably town.

Concerning Sbrubbles: He has never been a man with a huge filter, see Aperture as example. The fact that he tries to come up with his own original points and the way he pushes VE I'm leaning town on him.

"A person who does not concern himself with politics has already made the political choice he was so anxious to spare himself: he is serving the ruling party."

Snarfs Canada. April 27 2012 17:36. Posts 764

On April 27 2012 17:21 Bluelightz wrote:
Snarfs, the 'Sbrubbles is scumhunting' quotes are first, getting someone else's opinion on stuff(Like what im doin with asking you on why you think brubbles is town), second quote, brubbles could just be really throwing random reads to 'look' like he's contributing.

Anyway, rethinking brubbles I guess.

Sure, anyone could always just be throwing random reads to look like they're contributing. But that's not how I see it. Some things I pointed out might not be as much of a town-tell as the others, the parts you pointed out being some of the weaker.

Look at the whole picture though. WHY, as scum, would I tell dts to check me and my mafia buddies if they think I'm suspicious? Why, as scum, would I care about possibly changing my vote from MrZentor, a town who is very easy to lynch, to VisceraEyes? These things don't add up, in my opinion.

Bluelightz Indonesia. April 27 2012 17:41. Posts 2327

Hmm, good point, I guess his actions could be explained with a town perspective, I will keep on watching on what he doesd 3 assuming he lives tonight.

BTW, does Ace's actions make sense as scum? I'd like everyone but Ace's opinion on this.

Roses Are Red, Violets Are Blue, Radiation Is Good Because Nuclear bombs go BOOM | I love TL Mafia! ♥ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31 ♥| Mvp is most boss

Snarfs Canada. April 27 2012 17:41. Posts 764

On April 27 2012 17:32 phagga wrote:
prplhz: He is suspicious at least. Had Zentor turned scum, he would have been semi-confirmed town after tunneling him so hard. Now it's possible he just used it as an excuse to not participate in scum hunting D2. He voted Snarfs on D1 without any reason after attacking Zentor already.
+ Show Spoiler +

Also note how he was active at game start, but then gradually got less active, and has been lurking almost all of D2 (his last post is over 30 hours old). All this together make him suspicious for me, but it's not enough to lynch him today. I really look forward to hear some scum suspects from him including some reasoning why.

Part of the quotes you linked include this snippet:

Yea I'm against Radfield/Ace/SamuelLJackson lynches too, lets stop even discussing them.

Why would scum ever advocate against the lynching of strong town players? The only reason would be to buy town-cred, but there are ways to do that without specifically telling people not to lynch strong town players. This sentence screams town to me.

phagga Switzerland. April 27 2012 17:42. Posts 1052