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| ffreakk Singapore. April 29 2012 05:43. Posts 2035 | Profile # |
On April 29 2012 04:38 dmfg wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 04:25 ffreakk wrote:
Do realise that the only competitive Melee Sorc build in Diablo 2 is Dual-Dream based. However, since we know practically nothing about Diablo 3's items, this is not a fair comparison. And Titan Enchantress is a gimmicky build, barely viable, definitely not _strong_. The same can be said for Daggerzon (or Tankazon, any Zon build that doesn't use Bow/Jav/Spear).
I had a pretty good setup on my melee sorc that wasn't dual dream based. I ran - Harle crest - Passion phase blade - CoH archon plate - almost perfect Gerke's sanctuary (IIRC something to do with the way static -dmg and -magic dam interacted with ES) - SoE and a bunch of stuff I can't remember. 5 hit Zeal with ~4.5-5k per hit (though some horrible attack rate like 10/7/7/7/7) EDIT: Before I got the CoH, I used the RW that has a chance to proc fade, which worked pretty well too. I still went through full rejuvs like they were candy and I was on a mission to give myself diabetes.
Hmmm.. Personally i would take Phoenix Shield over a Gerke's. -35% Fire Res is almost too much to pass up. If you want - dmg, Gladiator's bane would probably be a fine choice. Not to mention you can socket a a CBF rune on it, and free up the Ring slot for SoJ. Resistance shouldn't even be an issue if you are using an ES-based build. So CoH really lost a lot of its charm =/. In any case, nothing some Shimmering charms won't solve :3.
Also, Beast on Switch, and 6xShael Phase Blade on main would give you 4FPA w Werebear, the best Passion can get you is 10/7/7/7/7 if im not wrong :3
Anw, min-maxing aside (sry for the rant @.@), Dual-Dream set-up give ~60k a hit (that ll be about 35k average dmg). So i maintain that Pure-Fire Enchantress, while viable, is quite a ways away from top-tier competitive. Not to mention this build deal terribly with Immune Monster, while Dual-Dream setup have about 30k Lite and 5k Fire dmg/hit, alleviating most Immunity issues.
@Ouija
Read the thread man, the issue's been discussed to death.
Bottom-line, there are 3-5 main builds for each class at end-game in Diablo 2. I fully expect Diablo 3 to provide the same amount of different build. In fact, i'm fairly certain that i alone can provide that many different builds for each class.
If you are worried about people copying your build, D2 or D3 are the same. The only difference is that in D2 people need to spend extra 2 hours in Uber Trist or some Baal runs to copy you. With the new addition of Essense in D2, people takes ~10 mins to copy you.
Gears will define your build. Even if somehow (and i'm not saying it's likely, it's not) he choose to copy your skills, your gears being different will result in much different efficiency in the build playing out.Last edit: 2012-04-29 05:51:30 |
| | Look. Only Forward. See. Only Victory. |
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| dmfg United Kingdom. April 29 2012 06:55. Posts 566 | Profile # |
Also, people are kinda just assuming "some random scrub who has no idea how to play is just going to copy my build and immediately be able to play it 100% as effectively as me". Well, that's just not gonna happen is it?
That's kinda like saying that SC2 has no way to differentiate between players because the only thing that can change is your race, so someone can just switch to Terran and there's nothing to differentiate randomTerran346 from MKP. |
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| kuresuti April 29 2012 07:19. Posts 849 | Profile Blog # |
On April 29 2012 06:55 dmfg wrote:
Also, people are kinda just assuming "some random scrub who has no idea how to play is just going to copy my build and immediately be able to play it 100% as effectively as me". Well, that's just not gonna happen is it?
That's kinda like saying that SC2 has no way to differentiate between players because the only thing that can change is your race, so someone can just switch to Terran and there's nothing to differentiate randomTerran346 from MKP.
It depends on the difficulty of the gameplay. You can't copy mechanical skill, but you can copy build orders. If there is a low skill ceiling gameplay wise, it is definitely possible for a random scrub to copy your build and do as well as you almost immediately. It was kind of like this in Diablo 2.
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| Nilrem United States. April 29 2012 07:32. Posts 1360 | Profile Blog # |
On April 29 2012 07:19 kuresuti wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 06:55 dmfg wrote:
Also, people are kinda just assuming "some random scrub who has no idea how to play is just going to copy my build and immediately be able to play it 100% as effectively as me". Well, that's just not gonna happen is it?
That's kinda like saying that SC2 has no way to differentiate between players because the only thing that can change is your race, so someone can just switch to Terran and there's nothing to differentiate randomTerran346 from MKP.
It depends on the difficulty of the gameplay. You can't copy mechanical skill, but you can copy build orders. If there is a low skill ceiling gameplay wise, it is definitely possible for a random scrub to copy your build and do as well as you almost immediately. It was kind of like this in Diablo 2.
That is the point; people can copy the builds all they want. But in the end of the day, actual skill of the game is much more of an influence. At least from seeing the affixes, seeing the gameplay, and playing the general making of the game (from start of beta till now), It is pretty safe to say that unless you have some level of competency, you will fail later on.
Diablo II was much more lenient when you had the build already pre-planned for you. Not saying it was a piece of cake, but not the most difficult of aspects. With Diablo III, with the number of affixes monsters will have later on, you will have to be actually reasonably good even if you have the gear. Otherwise, you will probably get swarmed or one-shotted, I think there will be some skills used more often than others; but other than PvP, I imagine people will be playing how they feel most comfortable and not merely copying others. |
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| ffreakk Singapore. April 29 2012 07:34. Posts 2035 | Profile # |
On April 29 2012 07:19 kuresuti wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 06:55 dmfg wrote:
Also, people are kinda just assuming "some random scrub who has no idea how to play is just going to copy my build and immediately be able to play it 100% as effectively as me". Well, that's just not gonna happen is it?
That's kinda like saying that SC2 has no way to differentiate between players because the only thing that can change is your race, so someone can just switch to Terran and there's nothing to differentiate randomTerran346 from MKP.
It depends on the difficulty of the gameplay. You can't copy mechanical skill, but you can copy build orders. If there is a low skill ceiling gameplay wise, it is definitely possible for a random scrub to copy your build and do as well as you almost immediately. It was kind of like this in Diablo 2.
True.
Doesn't take much effort to play like a good Tesladin. Just hit Zeal :3
Though, in D3 there are s'posed to be 6 active skills. So i expect combat will be a fair bit more difficult. At the very least, most classes in D2 didn't have 6 skills that you must actively use in Combat. |
| | Look. Only Forward. See. Only Victory. |
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| Ottoxlol April 29 2012 07:36. Posts 555 | Profile Blog # |
| I enjoyed D3 open beta they did a very good job. However maybe I am derp or something but I had problems entering dungeons, they hitboxes felt really off. |
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| dmfg United Kingdom. April 29 2012 07:43. Posts 566 | Profile # |
On April 29 2012 07:19 kuresuti wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 06:55 dmfg wrote:
Also, people are kinda just assuming "some random scrub who has no idea how to play is just going to copy my build and immediately be able to play it 100% as effectively as me". Well, that's just not gonna happen is it?
That's kinda like saying that SC2 has no way to differentiate between players because the only thing that can change is your race, so someone can just switch to Terran and there's nothing to differentiate randomTerran346 from MKP.
It depends on the difficulty of the gameplay. You can't copy mechanical skill, but you can copy build orders. If there is a low skill ceiling gameplay wise, it is definitely possible for a random scrub to copy your build and do as well as you almost immediately. It was kind of like this in Diablo 2.
Well that's kinda analogous to "you can't copy skill at gameplay [in D3], but you can copy skill builds".
I don't think anyone really expects the skill ceilings in D3 to be anywhere near as low as D2. I can probably give a 1 line algorithm that play any popular build reasonably well:
Hammerdin: hold shift when you want things to die, release when you want to move (also applies to Zealot)
Smite or charge paladin: click on the thing you want to die and hold until it dies
WW barb: hold right click and move it in little trianges around things you want to die, refresh shouts every 2 mins
Frenzy barb: turn off run, click on things
FO or blizzard sorc: hold shift when you want things to die, right click to teleport when things come near, refresh ES every 5 mins
Nova sorc: right click to teleport into things, hold shift to make them die
MS/GA zon: hold shift for AOE, right click for single target
Trapper: right click 5 times, then after something dies change to DS and right click 5 times
Zoomancer: go afk
At an absolute minimum, D3 has
- active resource generators required to fuel powerful abilities
- tactical decisions over whether to spend resource on offense or defence
- defensive cooldowns that will be required to survive |
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| TheRabidDeer United States. April 29 2012 13:49. Posts 2348 | Profile Blog # |
| Those worried about skill with somebody copying your build... just look at WoW. Everybody has the exact same build and the game really isnt that hard... and yet there is a huuuuuuuuuuge difference between a top tier player and your average person. Even with the same gear the top tier player will deal more damage and take way less damage. And the great thing? Odds are your build wont be the same as his. |
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| TigerKarl April 29 2012 13:58. Posts 1482 | Profile # |
| After reading some of the comments here i am quite happy. I feel like there's a different kind of variety in D2 compared to D3, but i can absolutely see the thoughprocess behind D3 and therefore prefer it. |
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| Lunchador United States. April 29 2012 14:58. Posts 683 | Profile # |
Your character wasn't unique in D2. It was no special snowflake even from launch... well actually you could be unique back in the day: uniquely bad. =P
My brother tried pioneering the max level ravens build back in the day. Such a damn shame that 80% of everyone's skills are amazingly ass. That is why we rag on D2's real lack of customization, rightfully so. This is what D3 aims to fix, and will make it a far superior game to play. Operation cwal!Last edit: 2012-04-29 15:19:01 |
| | Defender of truth, justice, and noontime meals! |
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| MrTortoise April 30 2012 07:05. Posts 967 | Profile # |
I think on the whole the game will be better than d2.
I am most worried by the effects of such a small stash when it comes to refining things like gems
Also when you want to kit out a char - or multiple chars - for multiple skill setups you are going to need loads of space otherwise you basically have to start from scratch item wise.
I feel like they have gone in 2 different directions.
One that encourages you not to hoard items adn get into refining early on - also encouraging you to do soemthing with stuff rather than storing it.
vs
Giving you the ability to change your skill setup which basically requires you to be building up several sets of items.
Of course this could be nullified if it turns out to be really easy to get the items you want for your new loadout.
Anyway time will tell.Last edit: 2012-04-30 07:11:26 |
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| kuresuti April 30 2012 07:28. Posts 849 | Profile Blog # |
On April 30 2012 07:05 MrTortoise wrote:
I think on the whole the game will be better than d2.
I am most worried by the effects of such a small stash when it comes to refining things like gems
Also when you want to kit out a char - or multiple chars - for multiple skill setups you are going to need loads of space otherwise you basically have to start from scratch item wise.
I feel like they have gone in 2 different directions.
One that encourages you not to hoard items adn get into refining early on - also encouraging you to do soemthing with stuff rather than storing it.
vs
Giving you the ability to change your skill setup which basically requires you to be building up several sets of items.
Of course this could be nullified if it turns out to be really easy to get the items you want for your new loadout.
Anyway time will tell.
Gems will probably be stackable like crafting materials, so I don't think those will be a problem. Different equipment sets might though...
EDIT: Speaking of stash, whatever happened to "more space than you will ever use!!!!1111" that they were boasting about last year. The stash seems pretty damn finite at the moment. I don't like it.
Last edit: 2012-04-30 07:29:48 |
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| Mysticesper United States. April 30 2012 08:06. Posts 911 | Profile # |
| Well, it does look like theres a bunch of slots, you just gotta buy them all |
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