On April 27 2012 21:11 Voltaire wrote: Flash would need at least 3 months of hardcore practice to be able to compete with the current top pros.
You should remember that current pros were cleaning toilets in team houses. I think Flash could be up there within a month if he gave it 100% in practice, but i doubt it as he still plays BW. Also Flash's skill might be above sc2 skill cap, which means he might perform just average among pros, because he can't really use his full potential. I mean there are specific attributes that make Flash perfect in bw that might not fully transfer into sc2.
Flash isnt above the sc2 skill cap because there is no skill cap. There is always something people could be doing better. They said they reached the skill cap a year into sc2 and now if we went back a year ago we realize how we were playing terribly. A year from now will be the same.
Of course there is no skill cap, actually nothing that we know has a real skill cap. I meant there are many factors that influence the overall skill in bw. Someone might be the best at strategic thinking but he really sucks at microing units or has very bad mechanics. Flash's combination of all BW factors is the highest and that is why he is the best. Some factors that make Flash really stand out might be just missing in sc2...
people should be careful about using the words nothing, always, never and everything, I would say I have reached the skill ceiling in tictactoe, you probably have too, so tictactoe doesn't count as something humanity knows according to you?
same thing with pretty much every single turn based game where there is no fog of war, since there is one or more optimal moves in any one situation, a player which only uses optimal moves must then have reached the skill ceiling.
note that fog of war and random factors instantly remove the concept of a skill ceiling (the skill ceiling instead becomes something like an infinitely tight circle, symbolising mind-games) since in both cases there are situations where there exist no optimal move.
RTSs are turn based games where 1. it is possible to pass a turn 2. a turn is infinitely short
thus this theory of optimal move can theoretically be applied to RTSs as well.
On April 27 2012 21:11 Voltaire wrote: Flash would need at least 3 months of hardcore practice to be able to compete with the current top pros.
You should remember that current pros were cleaning toilets in team houses. I think Flash could be up there within a month if he gave it 100% in practice, but i doubt it as he still plays BW. Also Flash's skill might be above sc2 skill cap, which means he might perform just average among pros, because he can't really use his full potential. I mean there are specific attributes that make Flash perfect in bw that might not fully transfer into sc2.
When he can do things like this
(which is impossible because the AI was using over 1k apm iirc ) then you can say anyone is above SC2 skill cap.
That's a flawed argument because a human can never approach this kind of micro, no matter how much he trains. There's just no way you can stutter step 20 individual units at a time seperately, unless you are a computer. Of course there's marine splits, but not like this and it will never be possible so its not part of the skillcap attainable by a human.
whether a skill is possible to perfect as a human is irrelevant to whether or not it is a skill.
and if it is a skill affecting the outcome of a game (which you cannot deny this does) it is part of the skill ceiling, if any such skill ceiling exists.
substitute "single marine control" with X and this is almost exactly what you said: "since it is impossible for a human to do X perfectly, any lesser form of X must be exempt from skill calculation"
On April 27 2012 21:11 Voltaire wrote: Flash would need at least 3 months of hardcore practice to be able to compete with the current top pros.
You should remember that current pros were cleaning toilets in team houses. I think Flash could be up there within a month if he gave it 100% in practice, but i doubt it as he still plays BW. Also Flash's skill might be above sc2 skill cap, which means he might perform just average among pros, because he can't really use his full potential. I mean there are specific attributes that make Flash perfect in bw that might not fully transfer into sc2.
Flash was never the fastest player though so if the case is that someone is arguing that he wouldn't be able to use his potential because you don't need as much APM then a lot of other players would be hindered more than Flash. Flash should still be able to do great things with his brilliance and awesome game sense.
On April 28 2012 00:29 Belha wrote: Bisu changing to T is just a tradegy for P players. Also is a sign of what top top koreans think of race balance and potential.
Is it really set in stone that he's fully switching to T?
FuriousEgg Argentina. April 28 2012 00:39. Posts 12
On April 28 2012 00:29 Belha wrote: Bisu changing to T is just a tradegy for P players. Also is a sign of what top top koreans think of race balance and potential.
Is it really set in stone that he's fully switching to T?
It was implied by the coach telling them that they can choose any race they want, and Bisu said that if terran is the stronger race, that is what he is going to be playing.
I doubt that he will be playing Terrran tough...
Can´t wait to see Jaedong as a new Zerg icon :D
Last edit: 2012-04-28 00:39:39
iky43210 United States. April 28 2012 00:40. Posts 1951
On April 28 2012 00:29 Belha wrote: Bisu changing to T is just a tradegy for P players. Also is a sign of what top top koreans think of race balance and potential.
Actually no. According to this the only BW pros who are confirmed to be switching due to balance reasons are HoeJJa, PianO, Juni, and great. Just those four are the only ones who've said they're switching because of balance. The others switching are doing so reportedly because they just want to play a different race.
Excerpt from that thread:
Hoejja answered that Protoss is just too good from what I've been hearing and have revealed that he is interested in Protoss and Juni has answered that "You must play Terran. That is all." Great has answered that he regrets playing Zerg in Starcraft 1 too much, and therefore, will switch.
So they're really not in agreement about balance issues either. It's not be confirmed that Bisu is goint to switch, he's reportedly considering it because he feels that it rewards his multitasking skill yet. Nothing has been confirmed, and he really hasn't said anything about balance issues.
I like the way the walls go out. Gives you an open feeling. Firefly's a good design. People don't appreciate the substance of things. Objects in space. People miss out on what's solid.
sluggaslamoo Australia. April 28 2012 00:42. Posts 3474
On April 28 2012 00:29 Belha wrote: Bisu changing to T is just a tradegy for P players. Also is a sign of what top top koreans think of race balance and potential.
Is it really set in stone that he's fully switching to T?
It wouldn't make sense for him to play P because the multitasking and micro control style of T suits him much better. Playing P would be a complete waste of his talent. Just imagine somebody who multi-drops and pushes like MMA, but has MKP's marine control and aggression. Only that Bisu has 5x better multitask than MMA, and can manually click 2 dragoons and right click on a spider mine, when there are 3 spider mines being laid down at a time with 6 dragoons, while macro-ing, sniping a tank with a 3 dragoon flank and teching arbiters.
Its weird though, all races suit Flash better in one way or the other. P for the turtle late game, T for the timing attacks and weird openings, Z for the macro and game sense.
Zerg doesn't suit Fantasy at all.
Last edit: 2012-04-28 00:43:17
BW: Slugger[wOk] feel free to add | No Tidehunter
WhosTheSmuRf United States. April 28 2012 00:45. Posts 56
On April 28 2012 00:29 Belha wrote: Bisu changing to T is just a tradegy for P players. Also is a sign of what top top koreans think of race balance and potential.
Is it really set in stone that he's fully switching to T?
It was implied by the coach telling them that they can choose any race they want, and Bisu said that if terran is the stronger race, that is what he is going to be playing.
I doubt that he will be playing Terrran tough...
Can´t wait to see Jaedong as a new Zerg icon :D
I cannot even fully comprehend how happy I am going to be when I see Jaedong playing SC2 zerg. He is my favorite player of all time...at anything. I will definitely start crying if he wins a SC2 tourney.
"This is how philosophers should salute one another: 'Take your time!'' - Wittgenstein
Grampz United States. April 28 2012 00:53. Posts 2066
Flash, Fantasy, Bisu... dare I say Jaedong? I never dreamed that all these players would make the switch at once. The SC2 pro scene is gonna be turned upside down in a few months if these guys start practicing seriously.
EDIT: And seriously.... fuck the haters. Starcraft 2 is a fantastic game and it offers a lot of great things that Brood War didn't have. It's especially selfish to resent Brood War pros that have switched for pursuing a fresh game with a wholly new and under-developed metagame that they can take a part in revolutionizing.
On April 28 2012 00:29 Belha wrote: Bisu changing to T is just a tradegy for P players. Also is a sign of what top top koreans think of race balance and potential.
Is it really set in stone that he's fully switching to T?
It wouldn't make sense for him to play P because the multitasking and micro control style of T suits him much better. Playing P would be a complete waste of his talent. Just imagine somebody who multi-drops and pushes like MMA, but has MKP's marine control and aggression. Only that Bisu has 5x better multitask than MMA, and can manually click 2 dragoons and right click on a spider mine, when there are 3 spider mines being laid down at a time with 6 dragoons, while macro-ing, sniping a tank with a 3 dragoon flank and teching arbiters.
Its weird though, all races suit Flash better in one way or the other. P for the turtle late game, T for the timing attacks and weird openings, Z for the macro and game sense.
Zerg doesn't suit Fantasy at all.
why doesnt it suit fantasy at all? he can build extractors around the map and enjoy his gg timing.Anyway watching a progamer playing off race maybe an interesting idea after all.
I kinda doubt Bisu will actually switch, as he continues to play Sc2. It's pretty obvious that Terran isn't especially strong relative to the other races; at the moment, I'd give that title to Zerg, but even then, it's not really worth switching races on the basis of momentary metagame imbalances or game imbalances, especially since HotS is right around the corner.
The people who think Bisu's talent would be wasted on Protoss obviously don't understand how hard certain style of Protoss play are.
On April 28 2012 00:29 Belha wrote: Bisu changing to T is just a tradegy for P players. Also is a sign of what top top koreans think of race balance and potential.
Is it really set in stone that he's fully switching to T?
It wouldn't make sense for him to play P because the multitasking and micro control style of T suits him much better. Playing P would be a complete waste of his talent. Just imagine somebody who multi-drops and pushes like MMA, but has MKP's marine control and aggression. Only that Bisu has 5x better multitask than MMA, and can manually click 2 dragoons and right click on a spider mine, when there are 3 spider mines being laid down at a time with 6 dragoons, while macro-ing, sniping a tank with a 3 dragoon flank and teching arbiters.
Its weird though, all races suit Flash better in one way or the other. P for the turtle late game, T for the timing attacks and weird openings, Z for the macro and game sense.
Zerg doesn't suit Fantasy at all.
why doesnt it suit fantasy at all? he can build extractors around the map and enjoy his gg timing.Anyway watching a progamer playing off race maybe an interesting idea after all.
Hahaha. Floating buildings to the corner of the map still works better. You even have stalemate now, oh god.
Fantasy loves his drops, aggression and weird builds, I can't imagine Fanta playing a standard macro turtly game.
BW: Slugger[wOk] feel free to add | No Tidehunter
Sandster United States. April 28 2012 01:27. Posts 1675
On April 28 2012 01:09 Shiori wrote: I kinda doubt Bisu will actually switch, as he continues to play Sc2. It's pretty obvious that Terran isn't especially strong relative to the other races; at the moment, I'd give that title to Zerg, but even then, it's not really worth switching races on the basis of momentary metagame imbalances or game imbalances, especially since HotS is right around the corner.
The people who think Bisu's talent would be wasted on Protoss obviously don't understand how hard certain style of Protoss play are.
It's been said that Bisu's skillset is better suited for sc1 terran than protoss as well. Has nothing to do with how "strong" a race is. Each pro has parts of the game they excel at, and they should pick a race that complements their strength. For example, Best should definitely stick with protoss in sc2.
EDIT: Once a few terrans pioneer mech+starport strats in all matchups and perform consistently on all maps, I definitely see Fantasy switching back to terran, heh.
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HeavOnEarth United States. April 28 2012 00:56. Posts 6627
