Talking Balance with David Kim - Page 25

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On April 27 2012 22:15 Destructicon wrote:

One more problem, stalkers can too easily kite and kill marines, this discourages micro and certain early game attacks and small scale skirmishes. A fix would be to make Stalker range 5 with an +1 range upgrade, or too make stalkers slower, that way they can still kite and hit and run, but they can't do so without taking any damage at all.
If you want to go the route of reduce stalker range to 5 you'd have to reduce marauder range to 5 and give it +1 range trough conc shells.

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On April 27 2012 13:21 Plexa wrote:

The biggest imbalance in TvP lategame is the mass colossus switch. Typically terrans won't have enough vikings to be able to deal with the switch and just get killed. Obviously, prematurely building vikings is a bad idea because they're useless against zealot/storm/stalker/archon and you really wanna be powering everything into bio. Even when scouting the colossus switch, one starport with a reactor isn't good enough to counter a double robo so more starports are required to defend it. Then if the next battle is about even, and you are left with a bunch of vikings (and he doesn't have colossus) he can go straight back into templar/zealot. It's this lategame flexibility which Terran struggles to deal with. And I say this as a protoss who has been exploiting this fact for months now.

I suspect that the winrate on cloud kingdom is so heavily in protoss's favour because CK tends to produce long games, and Terrans tend to do worse vs protoss in long games.

I really dont understand how Korhal is so heavily protoss favoured in ZvP...

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On April 27 2012 21:30 Destructicon wrote:


I'd look you in the eyes and tell you with a straight face that the decision was exaggerated. Not only are your numbers off, a ghost could only kill one BL, but you fail to take into account the follow up and the context.

Basically the only player in the world that was consistently winning late game TvZ using mass ghost snipe was MVP. I can count on one hand the number of times he did that. One of the was, unfortunately, right in front of the Blizz devs at Blizzcon, and they probably felt like it forced their hand.

You have no idea how hard it is to control your army and your ghosts so well as to EMP all the infestors, repentantly snipe BLs and keep them and your army alive.

Now if you're an intelligent and well educated man you'd only make a decision to buff or nerf a unit after you see it in several late game situation. MVP only won a hand full of games with that strategy, and we have countless other Koreans of comparable skill that failed, the sample size is ridiculously small, how can you make any educated decision from that?

Now the follow up, in late game TvZ, assuming you managed to destroy the BL, Infestor, Corrupter army, which is very hard to do considering how strong it is, you have to invest into tons of Vikings, and Thors and get good positions. The follow up attack with lings and ultras would kill you given that Thors and Vikings are terrible against ultras and lings. After that the follow up of BL, Corrupter can kill you because marauders are terrible against air.

So, no matter how much you hate it, terran needs a flexible unit in the late game that can handle both tech switches relatively well, supported of course.

Terrans don't have any of that now seeing as Ghost was the only unit that worked and T3 terran sucks.

So how the hell can you make a meta-game change of this magnitude, with such a limited number of games and with total disregard for the consequences and implications?

However, I can tell you of a case that is even more damning, that of the Thor.
Exactly after TSL3, with no time for the community to adapt, to learn and to counter, Blizzard nerfed the Thor into the ground. Thorzain single handedly managed to get the Thor nerfed. However, you would say that a single tournament contains both a very limited number of games, and a very small period of time for people to learn and adapt. Yet Blizzard didn't consider that and nerfed the Thor into oblivion, with disregard to the consequences, and look at the situation we have now, terran needs a good late game T3 unit and it has none.

Now can you tell me with a straight face and looking into my eyes that Blizzard hasn't fucked up the balance and has rushed it?

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On April 27 2012 23:29 freeshooter wrote:
No consideration for the casuals

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In response, we’re considering offering zerg better scouting options in the early game.

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On April 27 2012 23:47 Krymming wrote:
My theory on why they didn't talk about TvP is because there's no one even trying to figure out mech yet. Protoss has been fighitng MMM since beta and tried every tech path so they are ready for almost anything MMM has to offer, I'm curious what would happen if some gosu pro (unlike me) figure out mech and the impact on the matchup.

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On April 27 2012 23:50 noidontthinkso wrote:


u cant play mech vs protoss, was figured out 2 years ago

lol

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On April 27 2012 23:50 noidontthinkso wrote:


u cant play mech vs protoss, was figured out 2 years ago

lol

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On April 27 2012 23:56 Krymming wrote:



The game has changed a lot in 2 years.

And correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Jinro defeat MC with some meching 2 years ago?

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On April 27 2012 23:50 noidontthinkso wrote:


u cant play mech vs protoss, was figured out 2 years ago

lol

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On April 28 2012 00:01 noidontthinkso wrote:


you cant play mech vs protoss, was figured out 1 second ago



sounds better to you?

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On April 28 2012 00:03 Hypemeup wrote:


Thors did not have energy back then.

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On April 27 2012 23:27 SamsLiST wrote:
I am 100% positive its nothing but a metagame issue that makes Terran struggle (and I play Terran)
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my thought process behind this statement:
(repeat of different QQ thread)
(excuse me butchering your beloved language)
(Pro-quotes are pretty old and without source -my bad.)

-MMM worked so exeptional well over such a long period of time - it makes adaptions/improvements very hard "mindsetwise"

-dropplay that would totally screw most of Protoss back then is often times now easily defended
(oldfashioned statements like "Protoss does not want to split their ball" come to my mind)

-soon good Protoss players (mouzccHasuObs did this super early) just stopped beeing the aggressor, which made drops kind of a gamble.

-aTnCloud once stated he would only drop vs a defensive Protoss if he is behind or ahead or P. is clearly out of position.

-Problem: the MMM composition itself forces a super agressive playstyle. A high tech Unit like a medvak is not costefficient in one single 200 vs 200 battle. no wonder the few truely successful Bio players (MKP etc) are relentlessly fighting - using MMM to maximum efficiency. (kind of weird a healing-dropship is only good if the Terran is raging all over the map with it

-Imo Terran puts himself on a clock by playing this style (with ervery storm/colossus and even added gateway his comp looses viability/loosing the upgradewar does its part too)

that is common sense for the most part.

(LS once changed his mind on lategame TvP engagements quoting Terran should not loose if engages correctly with marineheavy MMMVG+scans)

-from a spectators side I kind of dont`t like the Idea of relying so heavy on you own control
(since even most of the Pros simply cant handle that in TvP)
->>>because it is more often not the engagement itself that is killing Terran -> it is the remax!

-(I personally see a huge parallel to TvZ here,)

-So Terran is just designed to have a weakness here that atm can only be dealt with by not loosing big clash fights -ever.

To come back to me seeing parallels in defensive Protoss to Zerg (which has kind of always been the "makro/defensive/reactive-race):

So I say Toss plays like Zerg used to play vs Terran:

I think we might need to look on how Zerg crushes a Protoss (IdrA might say "they don`t -.-) to evolve the metagame:

A very common way in ZvP is to pressure the 3rd/2base allin- timing with an overwelming roach-supply ("Stephano" style lol)

SO my question is: Why is nobody maxing out on marodeur/Hellion+few Vikings by 14ish and crushes Protoss before that timestamp (exact Unit comp is not even that important)?
180 rauderHellion has a lot more oompf to it than roach Ling has!

"People do not do it because it does not work"
"there is a reason standard is standard"
"what league are you in"

-> standard is not working any more so it should not be standard...
I really think Terran has been the creative race over the time (they had the most options for the most part - true that)

I really think we can figure it out without throwing (no offence OP) "random" nerfes at Protoss
I hope I made my point clear
(Unit-imbalance not beeing the problem)

I will sit down calm and wait for the TvP messiah to break the metagame for me^^ join the passive resistance my friends

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