On April 28 2012 06:20 coverpunch wrote: It would be nice if Blizzard released the data sets along with the results so people could look for themselves. I think it's just whining to insist the data must be wrong without having any data of your own, but I'm curious about how or where they got their numbers.
It wouldnt help. They informed people on Bnet that terrans were, in fact, not disappearing from the ladder. The response was people freaking out and challenging them, posting links of SCranks. Blizzard can't win no matter what they say or what data they release.
So what you are saying is that the community brought more statisical data to the table than blizzard. I find it funny that you think it's a bad thing that players are using facts and blizzard are bring unquantifiable statements.... apart from the matchmaking system thats based around forcing players to have a 50% win ratio is delivery that. And yeah.... where did all the terrans go?
I am saying the information they provided is mostly bull shit or just stuff they pulled because they want the myth of the disappearing terrans to be true.
"There seems to be this perception that terran players are fleeing the ladder, when that's not true at all.
I can tell you that the percentage of terran players (in terms of number of players choosing the race) is actually slightly higher this year than it was at the same time last year. The top 500 is also very close to evenly split between the three races as well.
Just some food for thought!"
and
"The stereotype of terran players populating bronze and then falling off in representation isn't reflected by reality, and the anecdotal reports I've seen regarding opponents encountered on the ladder are just that - anecdotal.
Those experiences aren't a comprehensive snapshot of the whole, they're a thin slice of the cookie. Even if the chocolate chips are evenly distributed, you might not get as many in your particular slice.
Mmmm, cookies.
I know what I'm doing for lunch"
Blizzard stated that their information is incorrect. They own the ladder and would have better information that any forum poster in any community. I see no reason to believe people who just go on SC2 ranks and pull out a bunch of questionable numbers and then say that it somehow is better than the information provided by the people who own the ladder. There is no reason for Blizzard to mislead people about this.
So ask yourself, why won't blizzard release the figures. Plus the sample size of sc2ranks makes it a data source you shouldn't discount entirely. There are on 2 way to judge this correctly. Firstly quantifiable data, blizzard in fact have told us nothing, nada. We have heard their conclusions only. You can't trust data interpretations from a bias source because the stats can be spun anyway you like. For (an extreme) example if TvP is 50% win rate but 100% terran wins were in the first 15 min and protoss 100% after that, the only stat blizzard will give you is the overall win rate. It make them look like they've done thing right. The matchup would be broken but hey they wouldn't wanna look bad now, would they...
Secondly, real world experience. Well that side is well documented here in the forums.
I'm not saying bnet players are right, however they would be very correct in trusting in data rather than an interpretation of data. What I am saying is that if the data was released then real conclusions can be drawn. With most computer games this isn't an issue, however blizzard have pitched this as an esport. I find this shocking when we cannot get our hands on basic numbers. No other competitive game (in the larger sense of the word, not just pc games) I can think of hides the data in such a way.
I don't have to ask myself why they won't release the data. People would just pick it apart and call it bull shit anyways. They would say things like "Well maybe terran players just qualify for the seasons and see how broken the match ups are and quit." The data is likely just this anyways, "Hey look, there are the same number of terrans as last month on the ladder. No wait, slightly more."
I am going to go with Occam's razor on this issue and not buy into the wild theories as to why Blizzard is hiding the real data about the population of terrans on the ladder.
So basically you don't want to find out because people can draw there own conclusions? Sad times.
aksfjh United States. April 28 2012 10:39. Posts 3503
On April 28 2012 06:20 coverpunch wrote: It would be nice if Blizzard released the data sets along with the results so people could look for themselves. I think it's just whining to insist the data must be wrong without having any data of your own, but I'm curious about how or where they got their numbers.
It wouldnt help. They informed people on Bnet that terrans were, in fact, not disappearing from the ladder. The response was people freaking out and challenging them, posting links of SCranks. Blizzard can't win no matter what they say or what data they release.
So what you are saying is that the community brought more statisical data to the table than blizzard. I find it funny that you think it's a bad thing that players are using facts and blizzard are bring unquantifiable statements.... apart from the matchmaking system thats based around forcing players to have a 50% win ratio is delivery that. And yeah.... where did all the terrans go?
I am saying the information they provided is mostly bull shit or just stuff they pulled because they want the myth of the disappearing terrans to be true.
"There seems to be this perception that terran players are fleeing the ladder, when that's not true at all.
I can tell you that the percentage of terran players (in terms of number of players choosing the race) is actually slightly higher this year than it was at the same time last year. The top 500 is also very close to evenly split between the three races as well.
Just some food for thought!"
and
"The stereotype of terran players populating bronze and then falling off in representation isn't reflected by reality, and the anecdotal reports I've seen regarding opponents encountered on the ladder are just that - anecdotal.
Those experiences aren't a comprehensive snapshot of the whole, they're a thin slice of the cookie. Even if the chocolate chips are evenly distributed, you might not get as many in your particular slice.
Mmmm, cookies.
I know what I'm doing for lunch"
Blizzard stated that their information is incorrect. They own the ladder and would have better information that any forum poster in any community. I see no reason to believe people who just go on SC2 ranks and pull out a bunch of questionable numbers and then say that it somehow is better than the information provided by the people who own the ladder. There is no reason for Blizzard to mislead people about this.
So ask yourself, why won't blizzard release the figures. Plus the sample size of sc2ranks makes it a data source you shouldn't discount entirely. There are on 2 way to judge this correctly. Firstly quantifiable data, blizzard in fact have told us nothing, nada. We have heard their conclusions only. You can't trust data interpretations from a bias source because the stats can be spun anyway you like. For (an extreme) example if TvP is 50% win rate but 100% terran wins were in the first 15 min and protoss 100% after that, the only stat blizzard will give you is the overall win rate. It make them look like they've done thing right. The matchup would be broken but hey they wouldn't wanna look bad now, would they...
Secondly, real world experience. Well that side is well documented here in the forums.
I'm not saying bnet players are right, however they would be very correct in trusting in data rather than an interpretation of data. What I am saying is that if the data was released then real conclusions can be drawn. With most computer games this isn't an issue, however blizzard have pitched this as an esport. I find this shocking when we cannot get our hands on basic numbers. No other competitive game (in the larger sense of the word, not just pc games) I can think of hides the data in such a way.
I don't have to ask myself why they won't release the data. People would just pick it apart and call it bull shit anyways. They would say things like "Well maybe terran players just qualify for the seasons and see how broken the match ups are and quit." The data is likely just this anyways, "Hey look, there are the same number of terrans as last month on the ladder. No wait, slightly more."
I am going to go with Occam's razor on this issue and not buy into the wild theories as to why Blizzard is hiding the real data about the population of terrans on the ladder.
They don't have to be "hiding" the data. The analysis that shows what the community sees at the ground level could very well be outside the scope of their data. It's very possible that they don't see a need to collect a bunch of race statistics outside of winning, and within that lies the possibility that population/race stats really don't matter in the big picture.
The only thing you can apply Occam's razor to in this situation is that the 3rd party data conflicts with the Blizzard data, and they aren't in a hurry to find out why.
VTPerfect United States. April 28 2012 10:39. Posts 486
On April 28 2012 06:20 coverpunch wrote: It would be nice if Blizzard released the data sets along with the results so people could look for themselves. I think it's just whining to insist the data must be wrong without having any data of your own, but I'm curious about how or where they got their numbers.
It wouldnt help. They informed people on Bnet that terrans were, in fact, not disappearing from the ladder. The response was people freaking out and challenging them, posting links of SCranks. Blizzard can't win no matter what they say or what data they release.
So what you are saying is that the community brought more statisical data to the table than blizzard. I find it funny that you think it's a bad thing that players are using facts and blizzard are bring unquantifiable statements.... apart from the matchmaking system thats based around forcing players to have a 50% win ratio is delivery that. And yeah.... where did all the terrans go?
I am saying the information they provided is mostly bull shit or just stuff they pulled because they want the myth of the disappearing terrans to be true.
"There seems to be this perception that terran players are fleeing the ladder, when that's not true at all.
I can tell you that the percentage of terran players (in terms of number of players choosing the race) is actually slightly higher this year than it was at the same time last year. The top 500 is also very close to evenly split between the three races as well.
Just some food for thought!"
and
"The stereotype of terran players populating bronze and then falling off in representation isn't reflected by reality, and the anecdotal reports I've seen regarding opponents encountered on the ladder are just that - anecdotal.
Those experiences aren't a comprehensive snapshot of the whole, they're a thin slice of the cookie. Even if the chocolate chips are evenly distributed, you might not get as many in your particular slice.
Mmmm, cookies.
I know what I'm doing for lunch"
Blizzard stated that their information is incorrect. They own the ladder and would have better information that any forum poster in any community. I see no reason to believe people who just go on SC2 ranks and pull out a bunch of questionable numbers and then say that it somehow is better than the information provided by the people who own the ladder. There is no reason for Blizzard to mislead people about this.
So ask yourself, why won't blizzard release the figures. Plus the sample size of sc2ranks makes it a data source you shouldn't discount entirely. There are on 2 way to judge this correctly. Firstly quantifiable data, blizzard in fact have told us nothing, nada. We have heard their conclusions only. You can't trust data interpretations from a bias source because the stats can be spun anyway you like. For (an extreme) example if TvP is 50% win rate but 100% terran wins were in the first 15 min and protoss 100% after that, the only stat blizzard will give you is the overall win rate. It make them look like they've done thing right. The matchup would be broken but hey they wouldn't wanna look bad now, would they...
Secondly, real world experience. Well that side is well documented here in the forums.
I'm not saying bnet players are right, however they would be very correct in trusting in data rather than an interpretation of data. What I am saying is that if the data was released then real conclusions can be drawn. With most computer games this isn't an issue, however blizzard have pitched this as an esport. I find this shocking when we cannot get our hands on basic numbers. No other competitive game (in the larger sense of the word, not just pc games) I can think of hides the data in such a way.
I don't have to ask myself why they won't release the data. People would just pick it apart and call it bull shit anyways. They would say things like "Well maybe terran players just qualify for the seasons and see how broken the match ups are and quit." The data is likely just this anyways, "Hey look, there are the same number of terrans as last month on the ladder. No wait, slightly more."
I am going to go with Occam's razor on this issue and not buy into the wild theories as to why Blizzard is hiding the real data about the population of terrans on the ladder.
They don't have to be "hiding" the data. The analysis that shows what the community sees at the ground level could very well be outside the scope of their data. It's very possible that they don't see a need to collect a bunch of race statistics outside of winning, and within that lies the possibility that population/race stats really don't matter in the big picture.
The only thing you can apply Occam's razor to in this situation is that the 3rd party data conflicts with the Blizzard data, and they aren't in a hurry to find out why.
Or what people are "seeing at the ground level" is not correct. I personally have seen no lack of terrans on the ladder. Blizzard's information matches my own experience, so I believe it is correct. I don't believe what people are seeing is outside of the scope of their data, only that people have selective memories and the ability to cherry pick "community data" to make their point.
Nony on PvT: "It's not imbalanced, the protoss wins and then there is a five minute death animation for the Terran"
aksfjh United States. April 28 2012 11:02. Posts 3503
On April 28 2012 06:20 coverpunch wrote: It would be nice if Blizzard released the data sets along with the results so people could look for themselves. I think it's just whining to insist the data must be wrong without having any data of your own, but I'm curious about how or where they got their numbers.
It wouldnt help. They informed people on Bnet that terrans were, in fact, not disappearing from the ladder. The response was people freaking out and challenging them, posting links of SCranks. Blizzard can't win no matter what they say or what data they release.
So what you are saying is that the community brought more statisical data to the table than blizzard. I find it funny that you think it's a bad thing that players are using facts and blizzard are bring unquantifiable statements.... apart from the matchmaking system thats based around forcing players to have a 50% win ratio is delivery that. And yeah.... where did all the terrans go?
I am saying the information they provided is mostly bull shit or just stuff they pulled because they want the myth of the disappearing terrans to be true.
"There seems to be this perception that terran players are fleeing the ladder, when that's not true at all.
I can tell you that the percentage of terran players (in terms of number of players choosing the race) is actually slightly higher this year than it was at the same time last year. The top 500 is also very close to evenly split between the three races as well.
Just some food for thought!"
and
"The stereotype of terran players populating bronze and then falling off in representation isn't reflected by reality, and the anecdotal reports I've seen regarding opponents encountered on the ladder are just that - anecdotal.
Those experiences aren't a comprehensive snapshot of the whole, they're a thin slice of the cookie. Even if the chocolate chips are evenly distributed, you might not get as many in your particular slice.
Mmmm, cookies.
I know what I'm doing for lunch"
Blizzard stated that their information is incorrect. They own the ladder and would have better information that any forum poster in any community. I see no reason to believe people who just go on SC2 ranks and pull out a bunch of questionable numbers and then say that it somehow is better than the information provided by the people who own the ladder. There is no reason for Blizzard to mislead people about this.
So ask yourself, why won't blizzard release the figures. Plus the sample size of sc2ranks makes it a data source you shouldn't discount entirely. There are on 2 way to judge this correctly. Firstly quantifiable data, blizzard in fact have told us nothing, nada. We have heard their conclusions only. You can't trust data interpretations from a bias source because the stats can be spun anyway you like. For (an extreme) example if TvP is 50% win rate but 100% terran wins were in the first 15 min and protoss 100% after that, the only stat blizzard will give you is the overall win rate. It make them look like they've done thing right. The matchup would be broken but hey they wouldn't wanna look bad now, would they...
Secondly, real world experience. Well that side is well documented here in the forums.
I'm not saying bnet players are right, however they would be very correct in trusting in data rather than an interpretation of data. What I am saying is that if the data was released then real conclusions can be drawn. With most computer games this isn't an issue, however blizzard have pitched this as an esport. I find this shocking when we cannot get our hands on basic numbers. No other competitive game (in the larger sense of the word, not just pc games) I can think of hides the data in such a way.
I don't have to ask myself why they won't release the data. People would just pick it apart and call it bull shit anyways. They would say things like "Well maybe terran players just qualify for the seasons and see how broken the match ups are and quit." The data is likely just this anyways, "Hey look, there are the same number of terrans as last month on the ladder. No wait, slightly more."
I am going to go with Occam's razor on this issue and not buy into the wild theories as to why Blizzard is hiding the real data about the population of terrans on the ladder.
They don't have to be "hiding" the data. The analysis that shows what the community sees at the ground level could very well be outside the scope of their data. It's very possible that they don't see a need to collect a bunch of race statistics outside of winning, and within that lies the possibility that population/race stats really don't matter in the big picture.
The only thing you can apply Occam's razor to in this situation is that the 3rd party data conflicts with the Blizzard data, and they aren't in a hurry to find out why.
Or what people are "seeing at the ground level" is not correct. I personally have seen no lack of terrans on the ladder. Blizzard's information matches my own experience, so I believe it is correct. I don't believe what people are seeing is outside of the scope of their data, only that people have selective memories and the ability to cherry pick "community data" to make their point.
How do people have selective memory when their replay logs are showing low amounts of T? I don't think I've seen any complaints that P or Z is underrepresented in their "slice," and only reports that T is surprisingly absent or "normal." At the very least, that would lend to the idea that Terran is underrepresented, but not as bad as some people think.
But whatever. You'll say/think anything to perpetuate the notion that the community is stupid and Blizzard is right, as long as it fits your narrative.
Plansix United States. April 28 2012 11:13. Posts 5372
On April 28 2012 06:20 coverpunch wrote: It would be nice if Blizzard released the data sets along with the results so people could look for themselves. I think it's just whining to insist the data must be wrong without having any data of your own, but I'm curious about how or where they got their numbers.
It wouldnt help. They informed people on Bnet that terrans were, in fact, not disappearing from the ladder. The response was people freaking out and challenging them, posting links of SCranks. Blizzard can't win no matter what they say or what data they release.
So what you are saying is that the community brought more statisical data to the table than blizzard. I find it funny that you think it's a bad thing that players are using facts and blizzard are bring unquantifiable statements.... apart from the matchmaking system thats based around forcing players to have a 50% win ratio is delivery that. And yeah.... where did all the terrans go?
I am saying the information they provided is mostly bull shit or just stuff they pulled because they want the myth of the disappearing terrans to be true.
"There seems to be this perception that terran players are fleeing the ladder, when that's not true at all.
I can tell you that the percentage of terran players (in terms of number of players choosing the race) is actually slightly higher this year than it was at the same time last year. The top 500 is also very close to evenly split between the three races as well.
Just some food for thought!"
and
"The stereotype of terran players populating bronze and then falling off in representation isn't reflected by reality, and the anecdotal reports I've seen regarding opponents encountered on the ladder are just that - anecdotal.
Those experiences aren't a comprehensive snapshot of the whole, they're a thin slice of the cookie. Even if the chocolate chips are evenly distributed, you might not get as many in your particular slice.
Mmmm, cookies.
I know what I'm doing for lunch"
Blizzard stated that their information is incorrect. They own the ladder and would have better information that any forum poster in any community. I see no reason to believe people who just go on SC2 ranks and pull out a bunch of questionable numbers and then say that it somehow is better than the information provided by the people who own the ladder. There is no reason for Blizzard to mislead people about this.
So ask yourself, why won't blizzard release the figures. Plus the sample size of sc2ranks makes it a data source you shouldn't discount entirely. There are on 2 way to judge this correctly. Firstly quantifiable data, blizzard in fact have told us nothing, nada. We have heard their conclusions only. You can't trust data interpretations from a bias source because the stats can be spun anyway you like. For (an extreme) example if TvP is 50% win rate but 100% terran wins were in the first 15 min and protoss 100% after that, the only stat blizzard will give you is the overall win rate. It make them look like they've done thing right. The matchup would be broken but hey they wouldn't wanna look bad now, would they...
Secondly, real world experience. Well that side is well documented here in the forums.
I'm not saying bnet players are right, however they would be very correct in trusting in data rather than an interpretation of data. What I am saying is that if the data was released then real conclusions can be drawn. With most computer games this isn't an issue, however blizzard have pitched this as an esport. I find this shocking when we cannot get our hands on basic numbers. No other competitive game (in the larger sense of the word, not just pc games) I can think of hides the data in such a way.
I don't have to ask myself why they won't release the data. People would just pick it apart and call it bull shit anyways. They would say things like "Well maybe terran players just qualify for the seasons and see how broken the match ups are and quit." The data is likely just this anyways, "Hey look, there are the same number of terrans as last month on the ladder. No wait, slightly more."
I am going to go with Occam's razor on this issue and not buy into the wild theories as to why Blizzard is hiding the real data about the population of terrans on the ladder.
They don't have to be "hiding" the data. The analysis that shows what the community sees at the ground level could very well be outside the scope of their data. It's very possible that they don't see a need to collect a bunch of race statistics outside of winning, and within that lies the possibility that population/race stats really don't matter in the big picture.
The only thing you can apply Occam's razor to in this situation is that the 3rd party data conflicts with the Blizzard data, and they aren't in a hurry to find out why.
Or what people are "seeing at the ground level" is not correct. I personally have seen no lack of terrans on the ladder. Blizzard's information matches my own experience, so I believe it is correct. I don't believe what people are seeing is outside of the scope of their data, only that people have selective memories and the ability to cherry pick "community data" to make their point.
How do people have selective memory when their replay logs are showing low amounts of T? I don't think I've seen any complaints that P or Z is underrepresented in their "slice," and only reports that T is surprisingly absent or "normal." At the very least, that would lend to the idea that Terran is underrepresented, but not as bad as some people think.
But whatever. You'll say/think anything to perpetuate the notion that the community is stupid and Blizzard is right, as long as it fits your narrative.
I have given my thoughts as to why people feel Terran is under represented. It is a myth created by people who want to argue that Terran is under powered at their skill level and players are fleeing the ladder because of it.
Nony on PvT: "It's not imbalanced, the protoss wins and then there is a five minute death animation for the Terran"
shockaslim United States. April 28 2012 11:34. Posts 825
Where did this myth of "terran stronger than toss in the early game" come from? I just doesn't make sense. If terran and toss both go for some economic opening they are both on pretty even footing. I just hate seeing when toss goes one gate expand while terran goes two rax then cry early game imbalance when terran just went for an aggressive opener.
On April 28 2012 11:34 shockaslim wrote: Where did this myth of "terran stronger than toss in the early game" come from? I just doesn't make sense. If terran and toss both go for some economic opening they are both on pretty even footing. I just hate seeing when toss goes one gate expand while terran goes two rax then cry early game imbalance when terran just went for an aggressive opener.
Trust me that does not make it even.
S1 3500+ Master T. S2 1600+ Master T.
CubeTokyo Philippines. April 28 2012 11:51. Posts 6
So what you are saying is that the community brought more statisical data to the table than blizzard. I find it funny that you think it's a bad thing that players are using facts and blizzard are bring unquantifiable statements.... apart from the matchmaking system thats based around forcing players to have a 50% win ratio is delivery that. And yeah.... where did all the terrans go?
Sigh i find it sad when people try to compare Blizzards data to that of a 3rd party site. Thing is mate why would Blizzard bother lying? They are the Judge, jury and executor in terms of SC2 balance. They could be showing a 80-20 TvP and claiming they still wanna wait out on the protoss to explore tech options, and you would be able to do NOTHING.
Btw since noone else does any research around here, look at this.
It explains very well how they get their adjusted winrates. It really doesn't matter if you think it is a reliable method, all you need to know is that those are the stats they use to determine ladder balance.
That video just proves to me that early game terran is too good and late game protoss is too strong.
But lets remember that its back then when maps were smaller and close spawns exist. Today, maps are larger and more macro based. Macro game/maps = easier to reach late game. Late game = protoss is good. Its transitioning to this point where protoss is too good that terrans often QQ about it (Well duh cuz its easier to hit late game now, the strong point of protoss).
So ultimately, its a game design problem NOT balance. Broken matchup
Agree with the first 3000 posts on tvp lategame...Ive been thinking of small change to the warpgate that may help iron out some issues, maybe ill share it when ive put more work into it
doesnt only balancing win rate assume that all players are of equal skill? people will work harder when playing a harder race, people will retrograde to lesser play when they are playing an easier, all the whie the win rates at 50/50, they need real ways of objectively measuring playing ability, THEN compare win rates.
Balance is not when the win rates are 5050, but when win rates are 5050 WHILE both players are playing at the exact same skill level. Of course this will be difficult, but that why they have all those compsci people and engineers on staff
MamiyaOtaru United States. April 28 2012 14:38. Posts 1651
Terran early game flexibility and lack of scouting options as Zerg are what made me ragequit a year and a half ago. I am of course utterly unqualified to comment on balance as I haven't played since, but that pissed me off then and the only surprise I feel that they are recognizing it now is that it took them so long
Genome852 United States. April 28 2012 14:45. Posts 790
On April 28 2012 14:21 vorxaw wrote: Agree with the first 3000 posts on tvp lategame...Ive been thinking of small change to the warpgate that may help iron out some issues, maybe ill share it when ive put more work into it
If you were planning on it, I'd advise you not to share it here unless maybe in blogs, as TL doesn't want to have people proposing changes here, as it should be done on Bnet forums
I wonder if warpgate will be adjusted in HotS to make up for the now much bigger maps. The bigger maps have affected many units, including tanks, which find really limited use in TvP right now.
Step 1: Design a system that produces 50-50 games at all skill levels Step 2: Measure to see if system is producing 50-50 games. If not, tweak until it does. Step 3: Assume that the game being balanced is why the system produces 50-50 winrates This is like: Kill all tall elephants Keep mating elephants to make sure all elephants are not tall Determine that elephants are naturally short.
wtf?
Oh, and seriously, nerf early game TvP and lategame PvT. kthxbai
Last edit: 2012-04-28 15:19:12
@Emperor_Earth ------- "Amat Victoria Curam."
summerloud Austria. April 28 2012 15:20. Posts 954
i wish someone competent would have taken over right at the start, like with that april fools teamliquid promod
the only real issue to overcome would have been to build a ladder system outside the excellent ladder system in place for sc2 for what would have had to be an ums map i guess
im actually convinced that if blizz had opened the matchmaking system to ums maps that few people would play the original game. its been proven time and time again that communities make way superior games than game companies do
the only problem is that its obviously way harder to get a player base and pro-level gaming without being a huge influential company like blizz. but just imagine what a dedicated, intelligent development team that is actually listening to the elite players would be able to do with this game, as compared to mr terrible damage and his incompetent clueless consorts
Poll: could the community come up with better balance/gamedesign than blizz?
no (22)
71%
yes (9)
29%
31 total votes
Your vote: could the community come up with better balance/gamedesign than blizz?
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