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| Svendsen Denmark. May 03 2012 10:06. Posts 3 | Profile # |
( I have not been able to find this idea yet so here goes !)
I have, like mostly many others zergie out there been having some trouble with getting that crucial scouting information which is needed since we are the adaptive race of sc2, even mr David Kim has been addressing this issue.
This however have been met with obvious conflict on how blizzard intent to do this, and as far as i can see it comes down to overlord speed. Other races say it will be highly OP if overlord speed could from the hatch itself, even with the cost it has now, reason is that it is an upgrade with little to no downside/risk even that early in the game.
This got me thinking, how about if queens got an extra ability which granted an overlord X more speed for X amount of time -> infinite time or so. This ability would however NOT be risk free is it would mess up with creep and inject timings as it could be a 50/50 if this little trick would kill you or not.
If you are unlucky, you just used an inject which you needed to hold that all in which are just now coming at you, or you just got saved because you saw that 10x 1 base starport banshee cloak tech inc and now you just got the information you needed.
I personally feel like this could mix up the very early game alot since (depending on energy cost) it is a very big decision to make cause queen energy is so very very crucial.
thoughts ? could this work ?
(btw i'm not born with English grammar so please look past that  ) |
| | when i read about the evil of drinking, i gave up reading. |
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 teamhozac May 03 2012 10:29. Posts 404 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 10:06 Svendsen wrote:( I have not been able to find this idea yet so here goes !) I have, like mostly many others zergie out there been having some trouble with getting that crucial scouting information which is needed since we are the adaptive race of sc2, even mr David Kim has been addressing this issue. This however have been met with obvious conflict on how blizzard intent to do this, and as far as i can see it comes down to overlord speed. Other races say it will be highly OP if overlord speed could from the hatch itself, even with the cost it has now, reason is that it is an upgrade with little to no downside/risk even that early in the game. This got me thinking, how about if queens got an extra ability which granted an overlord X more speed for X amount of time -> infinite time or so. This ability would however NOT be risk free is it would mess up with creep and inject timings as it could be a 50/50 if this little trick would kill you or not. If you are unlucky, you just used an inject which you needed to hold that all in which are just now coming at you, or you just got saved because you saw that 10x 1 base starport banshee cloak tech inc and now you just got the information you needed. I personally feel like this could mix up the very early game alot since (depending on energy cost) it is a very big decision to make cause queen energy is so very very crucial. thoughts ? could this work ? (btw i'm not born with English grammar so please look past that )
That is actually a great idea, I like it |
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| Svendsen Denmark. May 03 2012 10:38. Posts 3 | Profile # |
| I think it's reasonable idea tbh, but that could just be me |
| | when i read about the evil of drinking, i gave up reading. |
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| Chaggi Korea (South). May 03 2012 10:53. Posts 1087 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 10:06 Svendsen wrote:( I have not been able to find this idea yet so here goes !) I have, like mostly many others zergie out there been having some trouble with getting that crucial scouting information which is needed since we are the adaptive race of sc2, even mr David Kim has been addressing this issue. This however have been met with obvious conflict on how blizzard intent to do this, and as far as i can see it comes down to overlord speed. Other races say it will be highly OP if overlord speed could from the hatch itself, even with the cost it has now, reason is that it is an upgrade with little to no downside/risk even that early in the game. This got me thinking, how about if queens got an extra ability which granted an overlord X more speed for X amount of time -> infinite time or so. This ability would however NOT be risk free is it would mess up with creep and inject timings as it could be a 50/50 if this little trick would kill you or not. If you are unlucky, you just used an inject which you needed to hold that all in which are just now coming at you, or you just got saved because you saw that 10x 1 base starport banshee cloak tech inc and now you just got the information you needed. I personally feel like this could mix up the very early game alot since (depending on energy cost) it is a very big decision to make cause queen energy is so very very crucial. thoughts ? could this work ? (btw i'm not born with English grammar so please look past that )
so basically giving queen energy to make an OL move slightly faster? i can see how that's good but i doubt blizzard will like that |
| | University of Michigan '10 Alumni |  |
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| SmileZerg United States. May 03 2012 10:55. Posts 380 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 10:06 Svendsen wrote:( I have not been able to find this idea yet so here goes !) I have, like mostly many others zergie out there been having some trouble with getting that crucial scouting information which is needed since we are the adaptive race of sc2, even mr David Kim has been addressing this issue. This however have been met with obvious conflict on how blizzard intent to do this, and as far as i can see it comes down to overlord speed. Other races say it will be highly OP if overlord speed could from the hatch itself, even with the cost it has now, reason is that it is an upgrade with little to no downside/risk even that early in the game. This got me thinking, how about if queens got an extra ability which granted an overlord X more speed for X amount of time -> infinite time or so. This ability would however NOT be risk free is it would mess up with creep and inject timings as it could be a 50/50 if this little trick would kill you or not. If you are unlucky, you just used an inject which you needed to hold that all in which are just now coming at you, or you just got saved because you saw that 10x 1 base starport banshee cloak tech inc and now you just got the information you needed. I personally feel like this could mix up the very early game alot since (depending on energy cost) it is a very big decision to make cause queen energy is so very very crucial. thoughts ? could this work ? (btw i'm not born with English grammar so please look past that )
It's not only horribly inelegant (how many other abilities are there in the game which only have an effect on a single form of unit? None.) but lacking in depth and rendered entirely pointless after the speed upgrade at Lair. |
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| Svendsen Denmark. May 03 2012 10:56. Posts 3 | Profile # |
| Why not ? atm they are trying to give queens 50 energy when they spawn, i feel thats more OP because of the insane creep spread, not sure tho. |
| | when i read about the evil of drinking, i gave up reading. |
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| SmileZerg United States. May 03 2012 11:00. Posts 380 | Profile # |
| It's not about being overpowered or underpowered, it's just clumsy design. |
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| Fleshy0320 United States. May 03 2012 13:54. Posts 7 | Profile # |
| would love spine to build faster, but zvz would be little annoying here and there haha |
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| Blackknight232 United States. May 03 2012 14:19. Posts 167 | Profile # |
| let terran get some buffs back for once Blizz. J.c Just one patch where we get one buff is that too hard to ask for? |
| | No kidding.... |  |
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| rd United States. May 03 2012 15:38. Posts 2067 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 09:57 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:45 teamhozac wrote:
On May 03 2012 09:41 sunprince wrote:
On May 02 2012 16:22 Big J wrote:
Hydralisks are weak, but this has nothing to do with any form of "incomplete design", they are simply not playable as a straight up combat unit right now.
Agreed. They just have awful stats; hydralisks in BW weren't anything special either, but their low mineral/gas/supply cost and speed upgrade made them an effective bread-and-butter unit.
On May 02 2012 16:22 Big J wrote:
Corruptors are boring, I agree, but they are needed.
Not necessarily. You could fill the same role with a less boring unit.
On May 02 2012 16:22 Big J wrote:
There is absolutly nothing, that makes Zerg (or Protoss) more "incomplete" than Terran.
The main reason Zerg feels "incomplete" is the lack of a disproportionately cost-effective defense to slow/stop attacks and counterattacks. Terrans revolve around this with siege tanks, repaired bunkers, and MMM, while Protoss have splash damage like Colossi, Storm, and Archons, but whereas Zerg had lurkers and dark swarm in BW, they have nothing of the sort now. This lack of defensive ability drastically reduces a SC2 Zerg player's strategic options, resulting in the race feeling "incomplete" and/or "unfun".
Spine crawlers and spores are both great defensive units that can be uprooted and relocated wherever they are needed, not sure what exactly you want as defense but you probably have theb est defensive structure in the game
If you think that spines/spores are a cost-effective means of defending any sort of attack, on the level of the Terran/Protoss defenses or BW Zerg defenses I described, then you have no idea what you're talking about.
I guess hes never seen gigantic walls of spine crawlers. |
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| Kharnage Australia. May 03 2012 16:21. Posts 831 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 08:23 SupLilSon wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 08:02 convention wrote:
On May 03 2012 07:24 zmansman17 wrote:
On May 02 2012 22:18 jdsowa wrote:
Lyyna's got it right. People are stuck in a bio mindset. Bio units are throwaways, mech/air is more like playing the P deathball. You want to make expensive upgraded units, and hold onto them until you're maxed.
Early and mid-game, contain P with threat of hellion run-bys. Tech up to 3/3 and an ultimate unit composition of siege tanks, with a wall of thors in front, and banshee support. I'm not sure P can do anything against this. If you don't feel safe taking your 3rd, then maybe get a planetary or two.
This post lacks so much knowledge and clearly you do not play Terran. As has been stated on here numerous times by pro terrans and rank 1 master terrans like myself, mech does not work versus Protoss. If it did, you would see Terrans using it: plain and simple. If you haven't noticed, as Terran we do have a very flexible race, so what we lack in raw power, we make up for in versatility. This leads to a certain type of player that is attracted to Terran and a certain style that jives well with the race. We are Always trying new things and that is why Terran has been successful. Part its player base and part the race design itself. Mech does not and will not work until adjustments are made. Any statement otherwise from a Protoss player is very mis-guided and un-informed of the panopoly of posts made on mech TvP
Applying your logic about why mech doesn't work in TvP would imply that mech doesn't work in TvZ either. Also applying your logic (about people not currently using mech), then the current strategy is always the best strategy, because if something else was the best everyone would already be doing it. But people find ways to make new strategies work all of the time. While I think that there might be problems with mech at the highest level, Lyyna has shown that Masters and below it is definitely viable, which I think really shows something. Everyone always says charlots + immortals + ... is why mech can't work. But if mech works at the lower levels, then it can't be that it is those units that make mech unusable (assuming masters protoss players use charlots)
Stop. Please. Stop. How many of these posts are there going to be? Yes, there are a few masters Terran players per server that use mech TvP. I've read the guide, I've tried mech. Yes, you can win games with it. Is it "viable"? I guess it's viable if your definition of viable is having over a 0% chance of success. The fact is, for all of bio's shortcomings, it is still the better choice. Why should we use an inferior strategy just because it has the potential to win? For the 1000th time. There is a reason mech seldom appears in professional matches. If you don't think Terran pros have tried mech and explored it as much as Lyyna, then you're hopeless. But yea, I mean, go ahead and keep questioning the collective knowledge of every professional Terran. I'm sure you have got it all figured out.
This is idiotic. How can you say 'Yes, you can win games with it. Is it "viable"? I guess it's viable if your definition of viable is having over a 0% chance of success.' if it was 0% chance it wouldn't win games would it.
Bio is a better choice for winning in the first 20 minutes. After that you're screwed. That's the deal.
It took protoss over a year to work out how to make protoss work in PvT and yes, it took some buffs to some units and some nerfs to terran to make it possible. that may be the case with mech, but MMMGV is a dead end after 20 minutes now.
Everyone knows it.
What you're doing is the equivalent of just gateway units + storm while ignoring both stargate and robo tech saying marines and vikings counter everything that comes out so we shouldn't use them.
It's stupid.Last edit: 2012-05-03 16:21:33 |
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| SupLilSon Malaysia. May 03 2012 16:50. Posts 3171 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 16:21 Kharnage wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 08:23 SupLilSon wrote:
On May 03 2012 08:02 convention wrote:
On May 03 2012 07:24 zmansman17 wrote:
On May 02 2012 22:18 jdsowa wrote:
Lyyna's got it right. People are stuck in a bio mindset. Bio units are throwaways, mech/air is more like playing the P deathball. You want to make expensive upgraded units, and hold onto them until you're maxed.
Early and mid-game, contain P with threat of hellion run-bys. Tech up to 3/3 and an ultimate unit composition of siege tanks, with a wall of thors in front, and banshee support. I'm not sure P can do anything against this. If you don't feel safe taking your 3rd, then maybe get a planetary or two.
This post lacks so much knowledge and clearly you do not play Terran. As has been stated on here numerous times by pro terrans and rank 1 master terrans like myself, mech does not work versus Protoss. If it did, you would see Terrans using it: plain and simple. If you haven't noticed, as Terran we do have a very flexible race, so what we lack in raw power, we make up for in versatility. This leads to a certain type of player that is attracted to Terran and a certain style that jives well with the race. We are Always trying new things and that is why Terran has been successful. Part its player base and part the race design itself. Mech does not and will not work until adjustments are made. Any statement otherwise from a Protoss player is very mis-guided and un-informed of the panopoly of posts made on mech TvP
Applying your logic about why mech doesn't work in TvP would imply that mech doesn't work in TvZ either. Also applying your logic (about people not currently using mech), then the current strategy is always the best strategy, because if something else was the best everyone would already be doing it. But people find ways to make new strategies work all of the time. While I think that there might be problems with mech at the highest level, Lyyna has shown that Masters and below it is definitely viable, which I think really shows something. Everyone always says charlots + immortals + ... is why mech can't work. But if mech works at the lower levels, then it can't be that it is those units that make mech unusable (assuming masters protoss players use charlots)
Stop. Please. Stop. How many of these posts are there going to be? Yes, there are a few masters Terran players per server that use mech TvP. I've read the guide, I've tried mech. Yes, you can win games with it. Is it "viable"? I guess it's viable if your definition of viable is having over a 0% chance of success. The fact is, for all of bio's shortcomings, it is still the better choice. Why should we use an inferior strategy just because it has the potential to win? For the 1000th time. There is a reason mech seldom appears in professional matches. If you don't think Terran pros have tried mech and explored it as much as Lyyna, then you're hopeless. But yea, I mean, go ahead and keep questioning the collective knowledge of every professional Terran. I'm sure you have got it all figured out.
This is idiotic. How can you say 'Yes, you can win games with it. Is it "viable"? I guess it's viable if your definition of viable is having over a 0% chance of success.' if it was 0% chance it wouldn't win games would it. Bio is a better choice for winning in the first 20 minutes. After that you're screwed. That's the deal. It took protoss over a year to work out how to make protoss work in PvT and yes, it took some buffs to some units and some nerfs to terran to make it possible. that may be the case with mech, but MMMGV is a dead end after 20 minutes now. Everyone knows it. What you're doing is the equivalent of just gateway units + storm while ignoring both stargate and robo tech saying marines and vikings counter everything that comes out so we shouldn't use them. It's stupid.
How is that idiotic at all? You hardly explained yourself. I'd rather play 1-2 base strategies and win or lose before the 20 minute mark than play long, drawn out mech games which will probably result in more losses than needed. The way the match up goes now, Terran has a clear advantage early/mid and a clear disadvantage in the late game. Why would any sane Terran choose to play a strategy that guarantees they will have to play into that late game stage? Just because mech has a possibility of working doesn't make it a better alternative than bio. The fact that no pros, none, zero, not even Goody Panzer General are using mech TvP should be a clear indication that it has issues. |
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| CarelessPride United States. May 03 2012 16:56. Posts 142 | Profile # |
| the fact that Top Masters/ Gm protosses outside for korea have horrible multitasking / 1 control group army and on average 50% less apm than the other 2 races hurts my brain. The fact that they have the abilty to harrass but dont. the fact that feedback if qued up hits before EMP making HT if microed right a counter to ghosts... how is this balance. We have a few protoss GMs who got there from cannon rushing / 4 gating. how is that balanced =.= how defenders advantage is nullified by warp gate mechanics. anyone have been warp prism harrassed knows how anoyying and powerful that is yet 99% of protosses can win without doing so. why? because they don't need to since they can always just 1a to victory 5 mins from now. =.= fuck this game |
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| Lyyna May 03 2012 17:16. Posts 418 | Profile # |
There is a reason mech seldom appears in professional matches. If you don't think Terran pros have tried mech and explored it as much as Lyyna, then you're hopeless. But yea, I mean, go ahead and keep questioning the collective knowledge of every professional Terran. I'm sure you have got it all figured out.
Ive actually never seen any pro doing a defensive playstyle relying on mass abuse of sensor towers or macro orbitals , turtling untl you reach the best army in the game . . .When i see a pro playing mech, its usually a hellion/tank/viking army which will get A-move'd at a random timing or turtle on 2 bases. I've actually never seen anything that suggested that some pro (except goody and Thorzain) went beyond the "lets buiild pure factory units and play it like MMM, doing every thing the protoss wants me to do" thing.
I'm not saying that mech IS viable and that its impossible to deny it etc, im just saying that it's not as explored as some people try to claim since long . . . because every exploration attempt were made in a bad (bio?) way.
edit : and again that "goody isn't meching anymore" thing .. . guys, stop using that as a proof, as its easy to understand his choice due to his very personal playstyle of pure factories mech (which was killed by immo up and BFH nerf)Last edit: 2012-05-03 17:20:58 |
| | http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409758 -> My new mech thread |
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| vthree Hong Kong. May 03 2012 17:27. Posts 6275 | Profile # |
I'm not saying that mech IS viable and that its impossible to deny it etc, im just saying that it's not as explored as some people try to claim since long . . . because every exploration attempt were made in a bad (bio?) way
Since Terrans mech in TvT and TvZ, it is pretty unlikely they haven't tried meching in TvP... I am sure a lot of the pro terrans are experimenting with it in house but just haven't been successful yet (could be due to balance, maps or strategies). But just because we don't see it in tournaments games, it is pretty naive to think pros aren't exploring it. |
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| bittman Australia. May 03 2012 17:29. Posts 7283 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 17:16 Lyyna wrote:
Show nested quote + There is a reason mech seldom appears in professional matches. If you don't think Terran pros have tried mech and explored it as much as Lyyna, then you're hopeless. But yea, I mean, go ahead and keep questioning the collective knowledge of every professional Terran. I'm sure you have got it all figured out.
Ive actually never seen any pro doing a defensive playstyle relying on mass abuse of sensor towers or macro orbitals , turtling untl you reach the best army in the game . . .When i see a pro playing mech, its usually a hellion/tank/viking army which will get A-move'd at a random timing or turtle on 2 bases. I've actually never seen anything that suggested that some pro (except goody and Thorzain) went beyond the "lets buiild pure factory units and play it like MMM, doing every thing the protoss wants me to do" thing. I'm not saying that mech IS viable and that its impossible to deny it etc, im just saying that it's not as explored as some people try to claim since long . . . because every exploration attempt were made in a bad (bio?) way. edit : and again that "goody isn't meching anymore" thing .. . guys, stop using that as a proof, as its easy to understand his choice due to his very personal playstyle of pure factories mech (which was killed by immo up and BFH nerf)
I'm of course super interested in your style and have watched the VODs and have to agree with the sentiment that people are stuck in the bio mindset and far too critical on mech.
In addition to that, people basically just see it as "mech", and no other race tries to categorise itself so rigidly so why does terran? Lynna's style is defensive, yet responsive, mech with a mix of sky support. By opposition, most terran pros rely on mech for timings.
I'm not with Artosis in saying that "mech is the pinnacle of terran", but saying that it is a viable build in TvP is far less crazy than saying MMM is the counter to storms and collosii. |
| | Mvp - Leenock - Dongraegu - MC - Gumiho - Keen - Polt - Squirtle - Jjakji - Genius - Seed - Life - sC || LG-IM - MVP - FXO |  |
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| Lyyna May 03 2012 17:35. Posts 418 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 17:27 vthree wrote:
Show nested quote +I'm not saying that mech IS viable and that its impossible to deny it etc, im just saying that it's not as explored as some people try to claim since long . . . because every exploration attempt were made in a bad (bio?) way
Since Terrans mech in TvT and TvZ, it is pretty unlikely they haven't tried meching in TvP... I am sure a lot of the pro terrans are experimenting with it in house but just haven't been successful yet (could be due to balance, maps or strategies). But just because we don't see it in tournaments games, it is pretty naive to think pros aren't exploring it.
Not seeing it in tournaments games is "normal", as they only want to use the best strats in it, but i was mainly thinking about streams, pratice games,etc. I often see a terran say "hey lets go mech TvP this game", massing 10+tanks with hellions and vikings,and then getting crushed by the stalker/immortal/colossus army of his opponent, then saying "you see, mech is terribad", but i NEVER saw a terran trying to play defensive, abusing the strength of your defensive-based army supported by sensor towers and orbitals to reach lategame and the unbeatable deathball |
| | http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409758 -> My new mech thread |
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| vthree Hong Kong. May 03 2012 17:40. Posts 6275 | Profile # |
Not seeing it in tournaments games is "normal", as they only want to use the best strats in it, but i was mainly thinking about streams, pratice games,etc.
Well, for the pro koreans, I am sure streaming is just playing casually for their fans and some mechanics. I don't think you will see them trying to refine 'new' builds on stream just because they want to keep strategies hidden. |
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| bearhug United States. May 03 2012 18:10. Posts 885 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 17:35 Lyyna wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 17:27 vthree wrote:
I'm not saying that mech IS viable and that its impossible to deny it etc, im just saying that it's not as explored as some people try to claim since long . . . because every exploration attempt were made in a bad (bio?) way
Since Terrans mech in TvT and TvZ, it is pretty unlikely they haven't tried meching in TvP... I am sure a lot of the pro terrans are experimenting with it in house but just haven't been successful yet (could be due to balance, maps or strategies). But just because we don't see it in tournaments games, it is pretty naive to think pros aren't exploring it.
Not seeing it in tournaments games is "normal", as they only want to use the best strats in it, but i was mainly thinking about streams, pratice games,etc. I often see a terran say "hey lets go mech TvP this game", massing 10+tanks with hellions and vikings,and then getting crushed by the stalker/immortal/colossus army of his opponent, then saying "you see, mech is terribad", but i NEVER saw a terran trying to play defensive, abusing the strength of your defensive-based army supported by sensor towers and orbitals to reach lategame and the unbeatable deathball
"to let protoss reach lategame and the unbeatable deathball". Edited. |
| | We are dusts in the vast cosmic arena. Need to make the most out of life when we still have it. |
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| Grim Hatter Poland. May 03 2012 18:19. Posts 46 | Profile # |
Yea terren is in good spot... Look terran is very strong early game. Kim how to fix it? No problem man i will just nerf terran late game...
I just hope HOS will make terran late game playable. |
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