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| TSBspartacus England. May 07 2012 06:53. Posts 850 | Profile # |
+ Show Spoiler +
On May 07 2012 06:37 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 15:11 SuperYo1000 wrote:
On May 06 2012 14:42 zEnVy wrote:
On May 04 2012 21:34 oMNY.SEA wrote:
Im 100% sure Blizzard pays alot more attention to certain influential people that know this game really well (Pro's, Casters and their Dev Team) than it does to the ten billion self righteous, opinionated idiots that comb these forums daily just waiting for an opportunity to spout the word imbalance.
"OMG Metalopolis so IMBA TvZ" Yeah well they removed it from the ladder didnt they? First it was too imba against zerg now its too imba for zerg, fuck me - nomatter what blizzard do to try and help all you lot do is fucking complain. Would you rather them go back in time and fix the map so that you can never have experienced such harsh injustice?
"OMG TVP OMG TVP" Im a terran, and ive been accepting the fact that Zerg is strong late game for a long time so i do damage early/mid game and keep them behind. Now, protoss have expensive units that are hard to get up in large numbers early, is it not logical that they have a strong late game army? Sure, its way harder to Micro the terran army but its a hell of a lot easier to build one. Without completely ruining things blizzard need to be extremely goddamn careful how they implement any changes that will effect how the TvP late game armies clash, especially considering that besides slightly imbalanced micro requirements in late game armies the matchup is pretty damn balanced. What im more annoyed with is the countless pages of people spouting their very very valuable opinion on how "lame" it is that the professionals who made and have balanced this game well up until now didnt decide to talk about TvP for whatever reason. They could be waiting to see if you idiots actually come up with a way to combat the deathball before they start nerfing things, surely you know what its like to have stuff nerfed just because people havent learnt how to deal with it/use it properly (being a terran). Just get over yourselves, you dont know best. I bet a very small percentage of you have actually sat down and tried something -new- to deal with protoss in the late game, you just sit around regurgitating whatever X pro said while he was on tilt while waiting to see if Y pro comes up with a way to deal with the situation. How about try something new and maybe enjoy the game while you try it? Play for a mid game win, try adding in reapers, try switching vikings for banshees until you are 120% sure its not viable, try and drop the templar archives repeatedly without mercy to slow them down, do a 20 bunker push across the map to deny his AoE damage then choke him down and starve him out. Try something, do anything besides whinging and whining for 65 pages. And if that didnt work, well, give up or shut up unless you have anything with substance to say, because you are just making it harder to sift through and find the posts that are worth reading.
TLDR: "OMG im so PISSED coz they didnt talk bout XXXXX"
Thanks heaps for sharing that valuable opinion./sarcasm
Yup, pressing "w" and then holding "shift+z" and then spamming click the units right into the battlefield is really really hard.
queing with a unit is 3/4 to 7/8 done building is much more lenient for your macro then with warpgate warp ins. we tried to warp in early?.....wasted apm, warp in late? every unit afterward is that much slower so ya, it is much harder to maintain a precise macro
Haha what a joke, Protoss macro is so easy pressing W is not hard at all.
Compared to holding down A.......
But seriously, imagine if protoss had to produce out of gateways like normal. You think TvP would be better? No, each races different production techniques are what makes them unique, and changing that won't fix anything. Terran needs to just buck up and start using ravens more.
My balance whine is this: zergs have it so easy denying thirds for protoss with mass roach, and this is map dependant a lot of the time. I'd like either roaches to be increased to 75mins 50 gas each, or maps to be designed to hold a third easier as protoss. Maybe smaller chokes on 3rd bases, nerf roach speed (its so ****ing ridiculous) or make cannons less hp, but cheaper. Its so expensive to wall off your third on maps like taldarim, metalopolis and cloud kingdom.Last edit: 2012-05-07 06:54:33 |
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 Kliedxl Canada. May 07 2012 07:01. Posts 6 | Profile # |
On April 27 2012 10:14 Encrypto wrote:He just posted a new article on Battle.net. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5202424/Talking_Balance_with_David_Kim-4_26_2012#blog
Show nested quote +Based on our internal data, tournament results, as well as the feedback we receive from pro-players and the community at large we believe that the balance between the StarCraft II races is in a good place. Still, we’re going to keep a close eye on things to make sure that gameplay remains fun and balanced even as we prepare for the exciting changes that will come with Heart of the Swarm and beyond. In today’s report, we’re going to look at some recent shifts that might merit further investigation, where we are in terms of balance over all, as well as how things look in the pro scene. We’re currently looking into a couple of potential issues. Zerg has recently shifted from making a very strong showing in tournaments, to having slightly weaker representation only at the highest levels of professional play. We’re also continuing to see a slight advantage for terran in terms of opening flexibility and scouting denial. In response, we’re considering offering zerg better scouting options in the early game. I think that it’s worth pointing out that these are actually relatively minor concerns in the face of the statistics we’re seeing. Assuming nothing drastic changes in the meta game that would shift the win rates further out of balance, there’s a strong likelihood that it won’t be necessary to make balance changes until Heart of the Swarm arrives. Still, if a significant issue arises that is beyond the reach of metagame changes to resolve, then we will react as quickly as possible to make the adjustments necessary to restore balance. Adjusted ratingsHere’s the latest global adjusted ratings data: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oopxL.gif) Please note that the way we do this calculation factors out player skill. These numbers are also constantly in flux. For the purposes of interpreting this chart, a 45-55% win rate suggests that there is no sign of imbalance. Also, because these numbers change from week to week and day to day, it’s not uncommon for a race that shows a 54% win rate this week to show 46% next week. Overall, we have been seeing win rates in the 45-55% range in every matchup and in every region for a while now. We do have a new method of calculating player skill more precisely. The different races tend to be slightly stronger or weaker at different league levels , and since most players only ever play one race all the time, racial strength was an influence on their hidden rating. For example, if terran is slightly weaker at the gold level, the player would have a lower hidden rating than if he were to play a different race at that level. When using this method of calculation, we are seeing good balance at the highest levels of the ladder - race balance is good enough at those levels to have a negligible influence on player performance. We’re checking all of these numbers on a frequent basis in order to react quickly if something big happens. TournamentsMy earlier comments about zerg notwithstanding, overall, we are seeing good win ratios and stats from tournaments. One interesting thing to note is that there still is a skill gap even at the pro level. This is what we’re seeing: Protoss has good representation in terms of the number of protoss tournament qualifiers at the general professional level, but has the lowest representation at the very highest professional level. Zerg has the lowest representation at the general pro level, but has been showing the best standings at the highest tournament levels until very recently. Terran has good representation over all. We are concerned that protoss players seem to be having a slower start compared to zerg or terran players. For quite some time after StarCraft II was released, especially at the highest levels of professional play, protoss players were primarily only focusing on 1 base or 2 base warp gate all-ins. It was only after we toned down these builds that protoss players really started exploring their various tech options in the same way that the other two races have been doing for a long time. Terran representation remains strong even after recent nerfs. We think that the adjustments we’ve made over time have kept pace well with meta game shifts, and that overall terran is in a good place. Again, we’re closely watching every major tournament, and working with various tournament organizations around the world in order to keep close tabs on both specific games and overall tournament data. MapsIn our current map pool, we’re seeing that not every map we’ve added to our pool is balanced for every matchup. For example, our data shows a 70% PvT win ratio on Cloud Kingdom, a 62% win ratio in PvZ on Korhal Compound, and a 37% win ratio on Metalopolis for TvZ. It’s worth noting that these represent the heaviest imbalances in the maps on our ladder, but that this also isn’t necessarily a problem. Our current stance on this is we believe slight imbalances in maps actually make the game more interesting, as long as the imbalances aren’t too great. Various new meta games and strategies develop depending on the map, and it’s interesting to see the game play out in different ways as players exploit their own strengths and weaknesses from map to map. We believe a lot of the fun comes from this as well. On top of that, we have our veto system on the ladder and tournaments have their own player map veto systems that also deal with this issue. That said, if a map pushes the limit too much and a matchup becomes significantly imbalanced, we will definitely take steps to adjust the map pool accordingly. Community FeedbackThe pro player and caster feedback regarding which races are overpowered or underpowered is very evenly distributed among the three races, which is a very good sign. The feedback from you all in the player community has been very interesting too. A lot of the feedback we used to see on the forums was often related to perceived imbalances in units or strategies at the pro level. These days, it seems that we’re seeing more conversations that focus on what’s happening at the league level directly - which we think could be related to a more visibly balanced pro scene. That’s good for us because, while we like seeing very solid results at the pro level, we are also always working towards a balanced experience across all skill levels. We will continue to pay close attention to both high level players and discussions within the community in order to continue pursuing this goal. At this moment, it feels like we’re in a good spot when we look at the current state of the game from various angles. However, we are always on the look-out for new issues that could arise, checking our data, and gathering new feedback on a regular basis, and we’ll make adjustments to the game as needed. Thank you for your continued support and valuable feedback!
I feel sad for David Kim it noit good for him to speak with himself... |
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| FataLe New Zealand. May 08 2012 05:49. Posts 3622 | Profile # |
On May 07 2012 06:37 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 15:11 SuperYo1000 wrote:
On May 06 2012 14:42 zEnVy wrote:
On May 04 2012 21:34 oMNY.SEA wrote:
Im 100% sure Blizzard pays alot more attention to certain influential people that know this game really well (Pro's, Casters and their Dev Team) than it does to the ten billion self righteous, opinionated idiots that comb these forums daily just waiting for an opportunity to spout the word imbalance.
"OMG Metalopolis so IMBA TvZ" Yeah well they removed it from the ladder didnt they? First it was too imba against zerg now its too imba for zerg, fuck me - nomatter what blizzard do to try and help all you lot do is fucking complain. Would you rather them go back in time and fix the map so that you can never have experienced such harsh injustice?
"OMG TVP OMG TVP" Im a terran, and ive been accepting the fact that Zerg is strong late game for a long time so i do damage early/mid game and keep them behind. Now, protoss have expensive units that are hard to get up in large numbers early, is it not logical that they have a strong late game army? Sure, its way harder to Micro the terran army but its a hell of a lot easier to build one. Without completely ruining things blizzard need to be extremely goddamn careful how they implement any changes that will effect how the TvP late game armies clash, especially considering that besides slightly imbalanced micro requirements in late game armies the matchup is pretty damn balanced. What im more annoyed with is the countless pages of people spouting their very very valuable opinion on how "lame" it is that the professionals who made and have balanced this game well up until now didnt decide to talk about TvP for whatever reason. They could be waiting to see if you idiots actually come up with a way to combat the deathball before they start nerfing things, surely you know what its like to have stuff nerfed just because people havent learnt how to deal with it/use it properly (being a terran). Just get over yourselves, you dont know best. I bet a very small percentage of you have actually sat down and tried something -new- to deal with protoss in the late game, you just sit around regurgitating whatever X pro said while he was on tilt while waiting to see if Y pro comes up with a way to deal with the situation. How about try something new and maybe enjoy the game while you try it? Play for a mid game win, try adding in reapers, try switching vikings for banshees until you are 120% sure its not viable, try and drop the templar archives repeatedly without mercy to slow them down, do a 20 bunker push across the map to deny his AoE damage then choke him down and starve him out. Try something, do anything besides whinging and whining for 65 pages. And if that didnt work, well, give up or shut up unless you have anything with substance to say, because you are just making it harder to sift through and find the posts that are worth reading.
TLDR: "OMG im so PISSED coz they didnt talk bout XXXXX"
Thanks heaps for sharing that valuable opinion./sarcasm
Yup, pressing "w" and then holding "shift+z" and then spamming click the units right into the battlefield is really really hard.
queing with a unit is 3/4 to 7/8 done building is much more lenient for your macro then with warpgate warp ins. we tried to warp in early?.....wasted apm, warp in late? every unit afterward is that much slower so ya, it is much harder to maintain a precise macro
Haha what a joke, Protoss macro is so easy pressing W is not hard at all.
Gosh man I hope you did not come into this thread just to spout that lmao..
Anyway, I love the approach Blizzard is taking with this. Slow and steady will lead to a higher quality game in the end imo. Everythings looking pretty good at the moment, can't wait for HotS! |
| | hi. big fan. |  |
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| Yoshi Kirishima United States. May 08 2012 05:56. Posts 9002 | Profile Blog # |
On May 07 2012 06:53 TSBspartacus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
On May 07 2012 06:37 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 15:11 SuperYo1000 wrote:
On May 06 2012 14:42 zEnVy wrote:
On May 04 2012 21:34 oMNY.SEA wrote:
Im 100% sure Blizzard pays alot more attention to certain influential people that know this game really well (Pro's, Casters and their Dev Team) than it does to the ten billion self righteous, opinionated idiots that comb these forums daily just waiting for an opportunity to spout the word imbalance.
"OMG Metalopolis so IMBA TvZ" Yeah well they removed it from the ladder didnt they? First it was too imba against zerg now its too imba for zerg, fuck me - nomatter what blizzard do to try and help all you lot do is fucking complain. Would you rather them go back in time and fix the map so that you can never have experienced such harsh injustice?
"OMG TVP OMG TVP" Im a terran, and ive been accepting the fact that Zerg is strong late game for a long time so i do damage early/mid game and keep them behind. Now, protoss have expensive units that are hard to get up in large numbers early, is it not logical that they have a strong late game army? Sure, its way harder to Micro the terran army but its a hell of a lot easier to build one. Without completely ruining things blizzard need to be extremely goddamn careful how they implement any changes that will effect how the TvP late game armies clash, especially considering that besides slightly imbalanced micro requirements in late game armies the matchup is pretty damn balanced. What im more annoyed with is the countless pages of people spouting their very very valuable opinion on how "lame" it is that the professionals who made and have balanced this game well up until now didnt decide to talk about TvP for whatever reason. They could be waiting to see if you idiots actually come up with a way to combat the deathball before they start nerfing things, surely you know what its like to have stuff nerfed just because people havent learnt how to deal with it/use it properly (being a terran). Just get over yourselves, you dont know best. I bet a very small percentage of you have actually sat down and tried something -new- to deal with protoss in the late game, you just sit around regurgitating whatever X pro said while he was on tilt while waiting to see if Y pro comes up with a way to deal with the situation. How about try something new and maybe enjoy the game while you try it? Play for a mid game win, try adding in reapers, try switching vikings for banshees until you are 120% sure its not viable, try and drop the templar archives repeatedly without mercy to slow them down, do a 20 bunker push across the map to deny his AoE damage then choke him down and starve him out. Try something, do anything besides whinging and whining for 65 pages. And if that didnt work, well, give up or shut up unless you have anything with substance to say, because you are just making it harder to sift through and find the posts that are worth reading.
TLDR: "OMG im so PISSED coz they didnt talk bout XXXXX"
Thanks heaps for sharing that valuable opinion./sarcasm
Yup, pressing "w" and then holding "shift+z" and then spamming click the units right into the battlefield is really really hard.
queing with a unit is 3/4 to 7/8 done building is much more lenient for your macro then with warpgate warp ins. we tried to warp in early?.....wasted apm, warp in late? every unit afterward is that much slower so ya, it is much harder to maintain a precise macro
Haha what a joke, Protoss macro is so easy pressing W is not hard at all.
Compared to holding down A....... But seriously, imagine if protoss had to produce out of gateways like normal. You think TvP would be better? No, each races different production techniques are what makes them unique, and changing that won't fix anything. Terran needs to just buck up and start using ravens more. My balance whine is this: zergs have it so easy denying thirds for protoss with mass roach, and this is map dependant a lot of the time. I'd like either roaches to be increased to 75mins 50 gas each, or maps to be designed to hold a third easier as protoss. Maybe smaller chokes on 3rd bases, nerf roach speed (its so ****ing ridiculous) or make cannons less hp, but cheaper. Its so expensive to wall off your third on maps like taldarim, metalopolis and cloud kingdom.
Ravens/PDD get feedbacked too easily and it takes too long for Raven to get enough energy to be used. Also, Ravens are slow and won't last many fights if at all. Also, PDD is pretty useless if he's favoring chargelots over stalkers (which is normal the later the game goes) |
| | Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again." |  |
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| Velocirapture United States. May 08 2012 06:07. Posts 614 | Profile # |
I dont understand what is so controversial about their balancing scheme. This thread combined with the thread about their response to the TvP situation makes a completely valid point. Basically all they have said is that as it is clear Terran has a big advantage in the first 15 minutes (a fact not denied by any but the most biased posters) and that they have to turn that advantage into SOMETHING to not be at a disadvantage later.
So many Terrans in this thread are saying that if both sides do nothing until late game then everything should be even. So the early game advantage should just be free? Terran should just be objectively better than the other races? The only way to eliminate these timing related advantages is to homogenize the races which isnt going to happen. With that assumption, I think the current data shows a completely reasonable power compromise.Last edit: 2012-05-08 06:08:23 |
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| F1rstAssau1t Mexico. May 09 2012 16:54. Posts 551 | Profile # |
On May 08 2012 06:07 Velocirapture wrote:
I dont understand what is so controversial about their balancing scheme. This thread combined with the thread about their response to the TvP situation makes a completely valid point. Basically all they have said is that as it is clear Terran has a big advantage in the first 15 minutes (a fact not denied by any but the most biased posters) and that they have to turn that advantage into SOMETHING to not be at a disadvantage later.
So many Terrans in this thread are saying that if both sides do nothing until late game then everything should be even. So the early game advantage should just be free? Terran should just be objectively better than the other races? The only way to eliminate these timing related advantages is to homogenize the races which isnt going to happen. With that assumption, I think the current data shows a completely reasonable power compromise.
The early advantage is now lot lower that it used to be a year ago with the bigger maps, thats the problem.
Or you gona say it equally hard to stop a all in/push in Cloud Kingdom that in Steppes of War.
Protoss believe Terrans have a great advantage early/mid game because the remember the old games with smaller maps, but thats not the thing now.
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| | Hasta la victoria siempre. | |
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| Rannasha Netherlands. May 09 2012 17:25. Posts 2257 | Profile Blog # |
In addition, Protoss players are well aware that their strength lies in the lategame, so they tend to turtle up against Terrans to outlast the early- and mid-game. Protoss turtled up on 2 or 3 bases makes it very tricky to actually capitalize on your midgame advantage.
Also, the fact that T has a midgame advantage makes it better to just all-in. If I know I have to pressure before the late-game and that my chances of winning will go down the longer the game lasts, why not maximize the success chance of my pressure by going all-in? If I fail to apply sufficient pressure in the mid-game, I lose later on due to the Protoss late-game advantage, so why not just do a 1 or 2 base all-in and decide things quickly?
This way of playing is what bothers a lot of Terrans. We want to have epic 5-base vs 5-base struggles on equal footing, not to be forced to have to win the game early or stand no chance later on. If that requires a nerf to Terran early/mid-game, so be it. Last edit: 2012-05-09 17:25:43 |
| | Such flammable little insects! |  |
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| Phanekim United States. May 15 2012 08:16. Posts 649 | Profile # |
| i am curious to see how the new overlods have really changed the win rates. |
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| hangene92 Canada. May 17 2012 06:18. Posts 207 | Profile Blog # |
| Or you mean the new queen changes where they now have more range. |
| | "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one" |  |
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| Yoshi Kirishima United States. June 01 2012 17:36. Posts 9002 | Profile Blog # |
On April 30 2012 23:11 SupLilSon wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 22:35 Lyyna wrote:
On April 30 2012 22:31 nOondn wrote:
On April 30 2012 22:07 Lyyna wrote:
On April 30 2012 17:39 sieksdekciw wrote:
On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:
Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army.
Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't? Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit.
Gorapadong is a KOR high master (GM?) who is always meching on the KOR server. MKP used his build a good amount of times, and won a big amount of games with it. Lastshadow's last replay pack shows a lot of mech games versus pro KOR P. And there is also a lot of less-known people who are meching at GM/high master lvl
Gorapadong is low master =)
My bad. Still not bad on KOR servers (some foreigners pro even have problems getting in master in KOR, so it shows the level there . .). And the fact his build is used by MKP shows that there is good possibilities and that regardless of what some people claims, there is some unexplored (and good) things in mech vP
Low master on Korea server isn't really THAT good. My friend from school made it into masters on KR server with a ton of lag (hes rank 1 NA masters). I'd guarantee you any real SC2 pro could easily make masters on KR. I don't want to bash your style, Lyyna, but it's not viable. It must work for you somewhat as you have reached a pretty high level on EU, but that doesn't mean it should become a standard in the match up. And I wish Protoss players would stop pointing to you as proof that mech works TvP. Korean Terrans have repeatedly said that mech is NOT viable TvP and even LS himself has said that mech is NOT viable at the highest level of play, irregardless of his replay pack. If we want to apply this chain of reasoning to Z/P.... There is a high masters EU Protoss named Gaulzi who cannon rushes every game. I guess Protoss can stop complaining about early game instability. You guys have obviously not tried the Gaulzi strat if you're dying to Terrans in early game. It's completely viable, been shown to work by Gaulzi. Apparently there is also some random foreign Zerg who reached rank 1 GM on KR by only 6 pooling. I guess 6 pool is super viable and Zergs need to just get good and not complain about early game. There's an obvious problem with pointing to two (no offense) random average masters player's unusual play styles and calling them legit. And just because MKP used a mech build in a single game of GSL doesn't make it a viable mainstay of the matchup.
I know this is an old post but... to me, "viable" simply means a build that's "worth doing" in a BoX. Doesn't have to be a build like 1 Rax FE TvP that you can do every game. If mech has been used occasionally at professional levels with money on the line, and has won games, I call that viable. Also, the canon rush example doesn't apply because it's a cheese, and because no one canon rushes at high levels. 6 pool is used occasionally in high levels but once again, it is a cheese.
On May 01 2012 02:33 SupLilSon wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 02:23 hugman wrote:
On May 01 2012 02:21 sieksdekciw wrote:
On May 01 2012 02:06 Lyyna wrote:
Im not victimizing myself. Basically the only thing i try to point is that people bashing mech lacks both of experience and objectivity about it
Sir, I have two masters terran accounts and one toss on EU. While I am far from good, I have played over 7000 games in 1v1 and was among the first 600 in beta. I don't know how much experience more should I have with terran but I can assure you that any win you pull out vs toss that involves mech would be purely circumstantial. For example, there is a pretty popular opening in ladder now that is 9 gas, 11 rax 12 factory into double hellion production on Tal Darim that is intended to catch tosses that go 1 gate fe. You can roast 10 to all of the toss's probes and then transition into siege tank hellion with an expo while toss is having a stalker and 2 probes. Then if you kill the toss, would you say mech is viable? I mean, mech is so gimmicky vs toss and requires the toss to make so much mistakes like non proper scouting, completely messing up all engagements and stuff. Then you pull out a win against a toss using some mech. Can you do it again? Probably not. Therefore, mech is totally not viable. Stop thinking of stuff to say so toss doesn't get nerfed cause it's gonna happen regardless if Blizz decides it's imba.
I'm sure he'd disagree with you http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003
Yes, we understand, we've read the guide. This doesn't change what every single professional Terran agrees upon.
And this, not every single. Even Jinro is going mech in TvP on ladder recently. MKP apparently thinks it's worth it to whip out once in a while, even in a fucking Code S GSL match vs Genius.
And another reason why you don't want to do mech 3 times in a row is because, yes, it is not as safe/flexible as 1 rax FE (well duh, since you're spending money teching instead of making marines, which are great for defense), but more importantly you don't want to be using the same build all the time in a BoX. You want to keep your opponent guessing, and ideally not allow him to blind counter anything you do. But aside from cloak banshee opening, or expand into cloak banshee, there really doesn't seem to be too many other good mech builds out there (maybe the one thorzain used back then). And gorapadong's build works really well on Dual Site. So why not use that as the "surprise" build? I'm sure MKP is not better with mech than bio. So why would he play mech the other games in the match, instead of bio? Bio is more standard and thus more "solid" than mech, but that doesn't mean that mech doesn't work. It might take a lot more effort ("skill") and thus be inefficient to learn and practice, but looking at high level mech replays, there isn't anything "imbalanced" where there is no way to deal with something (extreme concept, imagine no ghosts in TvP).
And anyways, HotS will come out soon enough, so spending time into mech won't be all in vain, though mechers will just have to wait a while longer ^^. For most people, being able to mech successfully at masters on ladder should be good enough. For even better players like Lyyna or Jinro, I guess meching well at high master or GM on EU or KR is good enough.Last edit: 2012-06-01 17:48:51 |
| | Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again." | |
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| tdt United States. June 01 2012 19:59. Posts 3096 | Profile # |
| May be balanced but Terran mech still sucks and Protoss has no early cheese like 2 gate and cannons in the past. Would like to see both more. |
| | Supporting: MC | Naniwa | HuK | DRG | July | Polt |ThorZaIN | MKP |  |
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| JustPassingBy June 01 2012 20:13. Posts 6244 | Profile Blog # |
On May 08 2012 06:07 Velocirapture wrote:
I dont understand what is so controversial about their balancing scheme. This thread combined with the thread about their response to the TvP situation makes a completely valid point. Basically all they have said is that as it is clear Terran has a big advantage in the first 15 minutes (a fact not denied by any but the most biased posters) and that they have to turn that advantage into SOMETHING to not be at a disadvantage later.
So many Terrans in this thread are saying that if both sides do nothing until late game then everything should be even. So the early game advantage should just be free? Terran should just be objectively better than the other races? The only way to eliminate these timing related advantages is to homogenize the races which isnt going to happen. With that assumption, I think the current data shows a completely reasonable power compromise.
No, I think Demuslim said it best: The game should give a slight early game advantage to one race, a slight midgame advantage to another and the endgame should be balanced (so that a defensive macro style is viable for each race).Last edit: 2012-06-01 20:13:52 |
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| cozzE Australia. June 01 2012 20:13. Posts 329 | Profile # |
On May 07 2012 06:53 TSBspartacus wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
On May 07 2012 06:37 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 15:11 SuperYo1000 wrote:
On May 06 2012 14:42 zEnVy wrote:
On May 04 2012 21:34 oMNY.SEA wrote:
Im 100% sure Blizzard pays alot more attention to certain influential people that know this game really well (Pro's, Casters and their Dev Team) than it does to the ten billion self righteous, opinionated idiots that comb these forums daily just waiting for an opportunity to spout the word imbalance.
"OMG Metalopolis so IMBA TvZ" Yeah well they removed it from the ladder didnt they? First it was too imba against zerg now its too imba for zerg, fuck me - nomatter what blizzard do to try and help all you lot do is fucking complain. Would you rather them go back in time and fix the map so that you can never have experienced such harsh injustice?
"OMG TVP OMG TVP" Im a terran, and ive been accepting the fact that Zerg is strong late game for a long time so i do damage early/mid game and keep them behind. Now, protoss have expensive units that are hard to get up in large numbers early, is it not logical that they have a strong late game army? Sure, its way harder to Micro the terran army but its a hell of a lot easier to build one. Without completely ruining things blizzard need to be extremely goddamn careful how they implement any changes that will effect how the TvP late game armies clash, especially considering that besides slightly imbalanced micro requirements in late game armies the matchup is pretty damn balanced. What im more annoyed with is the countless pages of people spouting their very very valuable opinion on how "lame" it is that the professionals who made and have balanced this game well up until now didnt decide to talk about TvP for whatever reason. They could be waiting to see if you idiots actually come up with a way to combat the deathball before they start nerfing things, surely you know what its like to have stuff nerfed just because people havent learnt how to deal with it/use it properly (being a terran). Just get over yourselves, you dont know best. I bet a very small percentage of you have actually sat down and tried something -new- to deal with protoss in the late game, you just sit around regurgitating whatever X pro said while he was on tilt while waiting to see if Y pro comes up with a way to deal with the situation. How about try something new and maybe enjoy the game while you try it? Play for a mid game win, try adding in reapers, try switching vikings for banshees until you are 120% sure its not viable, try and drop the templar archives repeatedly without mercy to slow them down, do a 20 bunker push across the map to deny his AoE damage then choke him down and starve him out. Try something, do anything besides whinging and whining for 65 pages. And if that didnt work, well, give up or shut up unless you have anything with substance to say, because you are just making it harder to sift through and find the posts that are worth reading.
TLDR: "OMG im so PISSED coz they didnt talk bout XXXXX"
Thanks heaps for sharing that valuable opinion./sarcasm
Yup, pressing "w" and then holding "shift+z" and then spamming click the units right into the battlefield is really really hard.
queing with a unit is 3/4 to 7/8 done building is much more lenient for your macro then with warpgate warp ins. we tried to warp in early?.....wasted apm, warp in late? every unit afterward is that much slower so ya, it is much harder to maintain a precise macro
Haha what a joke, Protoss macro is so easy pressing W is not hard at all.
Compared to holding down A....... But seriously, imagine if protoss had to produce out of gateways like normal. You think TvP would be better? No, each races different production techniques are what makes them unique, and changing that won't fix anything. Terran needs to just buck up and start using ravens more. My balance whine is this: zergs have it so easy denying thirds for protoss with mass roach, and this is map dependant a lot of the time. I'd like either roaches to be increased to 75mins 50 gas each, or maps to be designed to hold a third easier as protoss. Maybe smaller chokes on 3rd bases, nerf roach speed (its so ****ing ridiculous) or make cannons less hp, but cheaper. Its so expensive to wall off your third on maps like taldarim, metalopolis and cloud kingdom.
Lol use ravens? Sick joke. We've had the game for just under 2 years and Ravens STILL don't have a major part to play like their older brother (the science vessel) did. If the Raven had as much cost-effective utility as its predecessor, we'd be seeing it much more in pro play but the truth is we don't. The unit has been plagued by energy usage issues as well as being nightmarish to balance. HSM has been godlike/terrible at least twice since the beta of SC2 came out. I'm going to assume you didn't know that seeing as you're making such an outrageous suggestion as telling Terran players to use the Raven.
All in all, Terran is terrible right now and is over reliant on 3 units (the marine, siege tank and medivac) and as such has no other equally cost-effective alternative unlike P and Z. These 3 units might have the best balance of cost-efficiency and pure dps but they also only allow for very 1 dimensional play at the very top level of play (I don't give a fuck what anyone says, all you see from the top players are marine/marauder, tanks and medivacs - and yes i'm not counting marauders in my example of counting 3 units).
Hopefully Blizzard moves away from their love of dice rolls for all races come HotS. Professionals and amateurs alike have complained about it since the day the game was shipped (and it's warranted, there still are far too many elements that fall too much to chance in comparison to BW). Heck, people still argue about it.
Don't get me wrong, I love SC2 and I don't want another BW clone but there was a reason why BW was played and loved for so long. Overall skill was the salient element of a players result whether that be win or loss.Last edit: 2012-06-01 20:18:51 |
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| Morphs Netherlands. June 01 2012 20:19. Posts 645 | Profile # |
One thing that I miss is that it is totally unclear what will be adressed in the (near) future. For Zerg, the hydra is still a unit that needs reviewing (speed boost mainly). Same for the corruptor with it's extremely limited role.. but since release there has been no word whatsoever on the hydra..
On June 01 2012 19:59 tdt wrote:
May be balanced but Terran mech still sucks and Protoss has no early cheese like 2 gate and cannons in the past. Would like to see both more.
Protoss can still cannon rush, especially now that the default build is FFE. Zerg only has early pool as a poor cheese that a Zerg cannot recover from if failed. I'd still love to see OL's drop creep at hatch tech for offensive spines against T and P. |
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| Veriol Czech Republic. June 01 2012 20:26. Posts 400 | Profile # |
Protoss can still cannon rush, especially now that the default build is FFE. Zerg only has early pool as a poor cheese that a Zerg cannot recover from if failed. I'd still love to see OL's drop creep at hatch tech for offensive spines against T and P.
Im zerg (high-ish master) and ovie creep at hatch tech would be insanely broken. Even at pool tech it would kill FFE (most maps you can get ovie in place before nexus down). Also the posibilites with like 2 spine pressure .. i dont even want to think how broken that would be |
| | "When you play, you have to start off with a mind to turn the game into a rape." -iloveoov | |
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| Ktk Korea (South). June 01 2012 20:27. Posts 708 | Profile Blog # |
Nerf marines, buff tanks, make ravens viable, bob's your uncle.
Buffing tanks will have to be done smartly though. Like buffing damage significantly (I'm talking 70+5/up tanks here) while lowering splash radius to make TvZ okay vs mass units, while making it better in the other matchups.
Nerfing marines has to be done similarly. You could just die to a zealot and a stalker otherwise...
for real terran op give me my irradiate and megaultragigapro-emp back, kthx  Last edit: 2012-06-01 20:28:48 |
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| Yoshi Kirishima United States. June 02 2012 06:35. Posts 9002 | Profile Blog # |
On June 01 2012 20:27 Ktk wrote:Nerf marines, buff tanks, make ravens viable, bob's your uncle. Buffing tanks will have to be done smartly though. Like buffing damage significantly (I'm talking 70+5/up tanks here) while lowering splash radius to make TvZ okay vs mass units, while making it better in the other matchups. Nerfing marines has to be done similarly. You could just die to a zealot and a stalker otherwise... for real terran op give me my irradiate and megaultragigapro-emp back, kthx
I think tank damage can definitely be adjusted as you say, to make mech more viable in TvP as well as making tanks "counter" ultralisks more. For example, just by adjusting splash and damage... In the mech army, you go tank heavy when he goes ultralisk heavy, and it already works well. But if it's even stronger, maybe it still won't be broken. Doing less splash and doing more damage would also help in TvP against colossi, making Vikings less important. And it would help scale the tanks down a bit -- right now in general, they are OK early on, then when you have mass tank numbers, they are really strong due to splash. Maybe if they had less splash and did more damage, they would be better early on (ex: protoss army is smaller early on, so damage in the form of splash isn't as "wasted", protoss army is big later on, tanks may or may not be as effective; maybe even more effective).
This is just one possible example that they might do. There are so many ways I can think of to adjust tank damage/fire-rate/splash damage, that I'm disappointed it doesn't seem like they will be fixing mech in TvP. I guess they want to just wait for HotS.Last edit: 2012-06-02 06:36:12 |
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