Talking Balance with David Kim

TvP late game is just broken as hell...Once Protoss starts mining off of at least 6 geysers HT+Colawlsus are just a much better army than anything terran can field. If the protoss were playing perfectly to suppress any sort of drop pressure, then theoretically the terran cannot win a straight up engagement is just death for terran due to AOE

Kharnage Australia. April 27 2012 13:42. Posts 831

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On April 27 2012 13:30 sc2holar wrote:
sight, why would Zerg need better early game scouting? they are the only race with an air-scout in the early game. Protoss has an even harder time scouting Terran because we dont have overlords, we have probes, period.

its so retarded i dont know what to think,

probe into stalker/zealot poke followed up with observer is fine.

if you're going gateway then you've got a big pile of sentries, research hallu for scout.
Protoss options are there, no problems, no matter what opening you've chosen.

If you are trying to deny zerg scouting with good building placement and a few stalkers you can keep a few secrets. Faster overlords might be too good? But some better option would be good I feel.

As for PvT late game, when they look at balancing TvP early / mid game I'll agree to balancing PvT late game. Basically the game at the moment is protoss cutting as many courners as they can to try and get to the late game as soon as possible and if they can get there they are in good shape, but if what you're talking about is the win by time in TvP terran destroys protoss in the first 20 minutes.

coverpunch United States. April 27 2012 13:42. Posts 604

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Isn't Zerg "representation at the highest levels" pretty much just DRG, Stephano, and Nestea? Maybe Leenock?

Last edit: 2012-04-27 13:46:34

Spicy_Curry United States. April 27 2012 13:45. Posts 2340

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a whole lotta nothing

High risk no reward - #RoadToTI3

Masada714 United States. April 27 2012 13:45. Posts 54

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I wish Terrans would stop talking about TvP lategame as if it's an auto loss. A protoss still requires a lot of things for them to go right in order to win (i.e. avoid EMP, place correct storms, don't get Collusus sniped, have good force fields.) This is all while having gas heavy T3 units, while T still has T1 with medivacs and Vikings mixed in. If a Protoss trades even in battles they will usually lose. If you nerf lategame Toss, then it will be extremely difficult to ever beat T and depending on the nerf it will probably have an effect on PvZ as well.

Another thing that drives me crazy is players in general trying to talk about balance based on Win %. The balance of the game should be based on how units interact with each other and if it is something that can be overcome with by players reasonably or if the unit is just to good in its standard situation. A high Win % only means 2 possible things, either there is a unit or units that make the matchup to easy or if units are quote unquote balanced then it is the measure of the skill of that matchup.

pOnarreT April 27 2012 13:45. Posts 153

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On April 27 2012 13:37 BoxingKangaroo wrote:

Show nested quote +

An air scout that's slow and can be easily taken out on the edges of a base if the opponent is diligent. P's may have a similar difficulty in scouting, but your early units are more versatile so it's not as much of a problem as it is for Z.

What's your point? Even if you say toss units are versatile, early game they still can't get up the ramp to scout.

unknownGamer April 27 2012 13:47. Posts 288

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Did you know, 2 marines take down a overlord before the OL can get to the middle part of your base in every map? And if you think zerg is having a easy time saccing their OL, guess what? Its a supply depot too AND it takes 100 minerals everytime and one larvae. There is a reason why zerg pros have said over and over again that zerg needs better scouting. Whether you like it or not, I am glad Blizzard acknowledge it. Sick and tired of playing games blind because of retarded scouting options.

FidoDido United States. April 27 2012 13:47. Posts 1281

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you guys have to remember, they don't balance this game around the top tier level, they balance it for the general community.

LGIMSeed FantasyToss~~ Hipster Seed fan before he made Code A

unknownGamer April 27 2012 13:48. Posts 288

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On April 27 2012 13:42 coverpunch wrote:
Isn't Zerg "representation at the highest levels" pretty much just DRG, Stephano, and Nestea? Maybe Leenock?

Its blizzard. They will find ways to make things look balance while being obscure about it.

IMHope Korea (South). April 27 2012 13:50. Posts 1185

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I think the game is fairly balanced right now. Sure every race can use some help in different aspects of their game but as of now the balance in the game is good enough where no race suffers to a big extent. Still would like to see how they handle balance issues with the expansions that are set to come.

Jessica Jung, Kim Taeyeon, Kwon Yuri <333

BoxingKangaroo Japan. April 27 2012 13:53. Posts 809

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On April 27 2012 13:45 pOnarreT wrote:

Show nested quote +

What's your point? Even if you say toss units are versatile, early game they still can't get up the ramp to scout.

My point is about versatility is that an unscouted build order done by your opponent won't kill P's as easily as it does Z's. For example if Z's don't have a T1 unit (other than Queens) that shoot up. Not scouting early air can be insta-death.

Endymion United States. April 27 2012 14:01. Posts 2477

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On April 27 2012 13:37 Dingobloo wrote:
Hm no more balanced changes until heart of the swarm except if there is a large meta game shift... I was convinced that HotS would be next year, but are they really anticipating that they won't need another balance patch before next year?

imo he was talking about the HOTS beta, not full release

It left us speechless, quite speechless I tell you, and we have not stopped talking of it since.

InvXXVII Canada. April 27 2012 14:01. Posts 239

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People at Blizzard don't get enough credit for what they're doing. First of all this is a video game; and just like most of us play sports for "fun", most of us play SCII for "fun" (i.e. most of us are not professional SCII players, and most of us will never be).

Having said that, David Kim has brought SCII where it is today. Without his hard work, there would have not been any WoL to talk about. No GSL, no MLG, no Dreamhack, no etc... Truth is Blizzard has given us a great game, a game so great we call it a sport. I'm not saying don't whine about balance, but can people please stop calling Blizzard and David Kim names and saying they suck?

A good loser is still a loser.

ContrailNZ New Zealand. April 27 2012 14:04. Posts 296

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I think they need to look at the results of games based on the length of time of games.

eg.

P > T 65% past 25 minutes
Z > P 65% past 25 minutes
T > Z 65% before 10 minutes

This would help identify eg.

IF Broodlords are imbalanced late game vs Protoss etc etc

Toastie Netherlands. April 27 2012 14:06. Posts 104

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This was no talking balance, this was a statfuck. What about TvP lategame, Broodlord Imbafestor, Stephano Style Roach?

Never give up, never surrender!

ticklishmusic United States. April 27 2012 14:07. Posts 3236

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I feel part of the reason people complain about PvT being Protoss favored is because Protoss lategame is just so flashy with lasers, storms and big warp ins. It just "looks" so much more OP.

Then again, seeing Terran lategame production is also pretty fucking scary as a whole.

Just a few thoughts, though I won't completely disagree Toss may have an advantage in the lategame. I mean, geez, Terran is strong midgame and stuff isn't it? >_>

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ #1 TPA fanboy TL

IshinShishi Japan. April 27 2012 14:09. Posts 3434

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On April 27 2012 13:15 Doublemint wrote:

Show nested quote +

I am genuinely interested in games like the ones described by you. Terran has to eat ALL the storms and mess up big time to still lose after being ahead 30 - 70(!) supply - and I am not even sure then it´s a done deal for the Toss.

You only need to watch the recent highest level TvP games, plenty of games where terran has a 30+ supply advantage and nothing happens, while when the protoss manages to get the same supply advantage, the game is kinda over, terran can't hold anything down in supply vs toss, that's just some made up bullshit, this concept only applies to TvZ where tanks, bunkers and walls are much more cost effective.But still, if terran still has a higher win ratio then it makes no sense to buff terran or nerf protoss.I wish we could have a major change regardless of the winrates, but that's unrealistic.

Last edit: 2012-04-27 14:21:12

and my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor shall be lifted—nevermore

blade55555 United States. April 27 2012 14:11. Posts 14121

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On April 27 2012 13:42 coverpunch wrote:
Isn't Zerg "representation at the highest levels" pretty much just DRG, Stephano, and Nestea? Maybe Leenock?

You know the more I think about it, the more I can't think of top tier zergs that are on any sort of ground with drg/stephano/nestea. Leenock seems to have fallen off a lot.

When I think of something else, something will go here

usethis2 April 27 2012 14:14. Posts 1717

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On April 27 2012 13:21 Plexa wrote:
The biggest imbalance in TvP lategame is the mass colossus switch. Typically terrans won't have enough vikings to be able to deal with the switch and just get killed. Obviously, prematurely building vikings is a bad idea because they're useless against zealot/storm/stalker/archon and you really wanna be powering everything into bio. Even when scouting the colossus switch, one starport with a reactor isn't good enough to counter a double robo so more starports are required to defend it. Then if the next battle is about even, and you are left with a bunch of vikings (and he doesn't have colossus) he can go straight back into templar/zealot. It's this lategame flexibility which Terran struggles to deal with. And I say this as a protoss who has been exploiting this fact for months now.

Sounds like ZvP story from 1 year ago. What do I do with these useless curreptors? Sure they killed Colossi but P warps in stalkers in masse.

I am not sayin that T isn't having a difficulty figuring out late-game army composition. But I have a feeling that players will come up with something.

Empirimancer Canada. April 27 2012 14:15. Posts 724

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This is silly. Are we supposed to take these statistics on faith? We have no clue what they are or how they were arrived at. And why would Blizzard withhold this information if there wasn't something wrong with their stats?