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| Ace United States. May 01 2012 07:56. Posts 13531 | Profile Blog # |
| and when some Townies realize from basic counting that they will end up in the majority and should switch to the more roomy minority then what? |
| | No sir I fully get it, however unless I can unlaunch my nuke there is not much we can do about it. I also wasn't posting as much because I didn't fully read the rules yet LOL! - RebirthofLegend in WaW Mafia |
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| Ace United States. May 01 2012 07:57. Posts 13531 | Profile Blog # |
On May 01 2012 07:56 prplhz wrote:
Ace is doing his usual and very useless "you can't have any reads on day1" thing. Then he's like "I'm just going to be an asshole no matter what you do" which is equally useless. All Ace can do day1 is yell at other people for having bad reads.
Deal with it. |
| | No sir I fully get it, however unless I can unlaunch my nuke there is not much we can do about it. I also wasn't posting as much because I didn't fully read the rules yet LOL! - RebirthofLegend in WaW Mafia |
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| prplhz Denmark. May 01 2012 07:58. Posts 3926 | Profile Blog # |
| Well, at least we'll have like 2-4 scum in the majority and that's kind of good. It just limits who we can focus on and maybe that's good, these people will be put under a lot of scrutiny and town wont have to deal with people having reads all over the place. Maybe that's not going to be a problem in this game anyway. |
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 Liquid`Sheth United States. May 01 2012 07:59. Posts 2025 | Profile Blog # |
I think Palmar / Syllogism / Radfield should just play a hydra named Palmogisfield simply because that is an awesome name.
If you agree send in "YES" to Protactinium. |
| | Underneath it all they were really quite nice. They just got screwed up. Mostly by stuff that wasn't entirely their fault. |
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| prplhz Denmark. May 01 2012 08:00. Posts 3926 | Profile Blog # |
On May 01 2012 07:57 Ace wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 07:56 prplhz wrote:
Ace is doing his usual and very useless "you can't have any reads on day1" thing. Then he's like "I'm just going to be an asshole no matter what you do" which is equally useless. All Ace can do day1 is yell at other people for having bad reads.
Deal with it.
I'm trying! I'm going to PM you tomorrow and ask for your opinion on somebody and then you're going to be like "l0L" and then I'm going to ask "well then who?" and then you're going to be like "we're all townies. host stole igrok's troll setup" and I'll be left discombobulated. |
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| Katina United States. May 01 2012 08:00. Posts 454 | Profile # |
On May 01 2012 06:00 Ace wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 05:53 Motbob is great wrote:
On May 01 2012 05:46 Palmar wrote:
Yeah that's it. I'm going with 5 people pardoned:
Palmar, Syllo, Foolishness, Radfield and gonzaw (over prplhz)
We're basically shooting shit right now because of you Palmar. First off, by just announcing to the thread which people you're pardoning, you're basically begging to have people jump ship and climb on the minority if they weren't on your magic list. Secondly... actually I really don't have much to say, your plan is just blatantly bad.Please read my posts and don't go with Palmar's plan. Flip a coin if you have to but don't do what Palmar is saying.
It's like they haven't read the OP and don't realize that banding together is a worst-case strategy. Trying to form a block of Townies to pick out the remaining Scum is just dumb in this setup. Independence though? Awesome. What you are looking for in this game is a block of people that share votes and appear on the same wagon (Round A's question) more than once. With 3 Scum per team they can never ALL vote the same way for fear of ending up in the majority and having their votes tracked since they need to save each other. Hence a decent team will come to the conclusion of always voting 2 in favor of Yes/No and the lone vote out taking the opposite side. Then it's just a matter of figuring out if the Scum team have 2 players or 1 player in the Majority pool for Round B by seeing where they apply their "saving" votes. This game is simple. You people just aren't smart enough to grasp it.
The mafia team will always be voting in the 2 to 1 method. However since there are two teams its a matter of figuring out where the two mafia are voting. On any given day each majority/minority will have either 2, 3 or 4 members. So for each faction, we need to figure out whether they have 1 or 2 members in the majority. Since mafia needs to save their allies they will always get at least some votes. So by comparing who is voting for who over the course of a few days it should give us some information.
Furthermore it's unlikely that the same 2 Mafia members will be voting together every day most likely they will cycle through X and Y, X and Z, Y and Z, etc. As Ace said, this is a lot simplier than people make it out to be. <3 |
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| prplhz Denmark. May 01 2012 08:01. Posts 3926 | Profile Blog # |
| Ace likes the hypothetical "what if everybody is an asshole?", well then this game is lost already now isn't it? |
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| Cephiro Finland. May 01 2012 08:04. Posts 662 | Profile # |
On May 01 2012 08:00 Katina wrote:
The mafia team will always be voting in the 2 to 1 method.
Most likely, yes. Always, no.
I can very well see all 3 mafia members voting for the same option, especially in the early game. A vote or two from a few random townies that have been deceived in PM-Land (or even worse, publically in thread), tadah. No worries. |
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| Cephiro Finland. May 01 2012 08:05. Posts 662 | Profile # |
On May 01 2012 08:01 prplhz wrote:
Ace likes the hypothetical "what if everybody is an asshole?", well then this game is lost already now isn't it?
Please don't tell me you're saying you don't know how to make reads on assholes?  |
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Radfield  Canada. May 01 2012 08:05. Posts 2680 | Profile # |
On May 01 2012 07:44 Ace wrote:
How are we going to put people into the minority Scumfield?
It depends, is everyone pissing at each other, or is everyone co-operating? If everyone is pissing at each other, then you're right, we cannot.
But if everyone is co-operating, then it's remarkably easy to put people in the minority. I accept that there will always be dissenters, but lets assume most of town is on board. And what are we really talking about being on board with? Well, we're talking about being on board with several premises:
A) Having a smaller number players in the majority is more advantageous than having a larger number. This should be self-evident, but the smaller the majority, the better chance town has of keeping townies alive and lynching mafia. Foolishless laid it out quite well earlier.
B) Having the players we think are most likely to be town in the minority is beneficial to town. Lets even fast forward a few days and imagine we have found ourselves a few confirmed townies. Obviously it is advantageous for town to keep those players in the minority.
If we agree to those two premises, then we can all co-operate and make it happen. We take 5 or 6 players and agree to put them on the minority list. Everyone else agrees to go on the majority list. Why does everyone else agree? Because they realize that if they don't, then scum gain an incredible amount of power to do what they want.
The reason scum gain this power, is because they have an information advantage, and can generally lean to get whomever is scummiest on their team into the minority, and the other 2 into the majority. In the event they fail it's still a win for them, since they have 2 players in the minority and only 1 in the majority. This is what we as town need to seek to prevent.
What if you feel you yourself should be on the minority list? Doesn't matter. If you think you're townie enough to be on the minority list, you have nothing to fear from the votes.
What if you feel someone SHOULDN'T be on the minority list, but is? Great! Lets talk about it, lay out your reasons. If they continue to be scummy and people agree with you we can swing them on over.
What if Mafia decide to not follow the plan and jump to the minority list? Great! Every player who jumps ship immediately spotlights themselves. That is fantastic for town. If enough scum jump ship all at once, we get a flip flop on the M/M, and lynch into the jumpers. Again that's fantastic. Anytime scum want to come out and yell " I'M SCUM!", we should let them.
Any other questions that I've missed? |
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| prplhz Denmark. May 01 2012 08:06. Posts 3926 | Profile Blog # |
I'm feeling like it was a really bad thing that we didn't just have Palmogisfield pick out 6-7 townies and then everybody else should go majority. Imagine if we did this and every townie complied, imagine that. Pretty good. People are all "but there's going to be someone who doesn't do it and then the world will implode and we will instantly lose to scum because of a lot of doomsayery i'm going make up on the spot" and I have no idea where they're coming from.
I'd volunteer to go to the majority 'cause I feel useless anyway. I'm probably going to flip coins until day[9] 'cause you can't have reads before then anyway. |
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| VisceraEyes United States. May 01 2012 08:07. Posts 9680 | Profile Blog # |
I'm against anyone "telling" me who should be in the minority. Round A has a built in randomization factor in the votes being revealed after the deadline - in this way it's impossible for scum and town alike to just "jump into the minority".
I feel like everyone should just honestly answer their interpretation of the question and then we'll decide out of the minority that's created who gets to live and die come Phase B.
In fact, FUCK IT I'M KING NOW!
Your King Hereby Decrees:
- Honestly answer your interpretation of the question in the minority round this and every following day
That's....that's it. Do it. And town will PROFIT! It will allow us much more time for finding scum every day (because there's no talk in Phase A about who should be "king" or who should be "in the minority" or whatever the fuck. We can spend our time looking for scum...by SCUMHUNTING!
:OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
FOR THE TOWN!!!!! |
| | Come on and give it to me. Come on and die. ****TL MAFIA LI - NEVER FORGET**** |
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| prplhz Denmark. May 01 2012 08:07. Posts 3926 | Profile Blog # |
On May 01 2012 08:05 Cephiro wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 08:01 prplhz wrote:
Ace likes the hypothetical "what if everybody is an asshole?", well then this game is lost already now isn't it?
Please don't tell me you're saying you don't know how to make reads on assholes?
I don't but that was not what I meant.
If everybody just do something semi-random all game long then we're not going to win because we can't organize anything while scum will be able to perfectly organize themselves. If people stopped doing semi-random stuff and for the most did what appeared to be the most townie thing then we'd be running with the Palmogisfield plan right now.
Meh, it's useless since round B is coming up soon. |
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| prplhz Denmark. May 01 2012 08:08. Posts 3926 | Profile Blog # |
| I don't know who is lamer, the DotA2 king of the WoW king ... |
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| Cephiro Finland. May 01 2012 08:09. Posts 662 | Profile # |
On May 01 2012 08:07 VisceraEyes wrote:I'm against anyone "telling" me who should be in the minority. Round A has a built in randomization factor in the votes being revealed after the deadline - in this way it's impossible for scum and town alike to just "jump into the minority". I feel like everyone should just honestly answer their interpretation of the question and then we'll decide out of the minority that's created who gets to live and die come Phase B. In fact, FUCK IT I'M KING NOW! Your King Hereby Decrees:- Honestly answer your interpretation of the question in the minority round this and every following day
That's....that's it. Do it. And town will PROFIT! It will allow us much more time for finding scum every day (because there's no talk in Phase A about who should be "king" or who should be "in the minority" or whatever the fuck. We can spend our time looking for scum...by SCUMHUNTING!:OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO FOR THE TOWN!!!!!
I approve. Make me prince will you? |
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| Ace United States. May 01 2012 08:10. Posts 13531 | Profile Blog # |
On May 01 2012 08:05 Radfield wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 07:44 Ace wrote:
How are we going to put people into the minority Scumfield?
It depends, is everyone pissing at each other, or is everyone co-operating? If everyone is pissing at each other, then you're right, we cannot. But if everyone is co-operating, then it's remarkably easy to put people in the minority. I accept that there will always be dissenters, but lets assume most of town is on board. And what are we really talking about being on board with? Well, we're talking about being on board with several premises: A) Having a smaller number players in the majority is more advantageous than having a larger number. This should be self-evident, but the smaller the majority, the better chance town has of keeping townies alive and lynching mafia. Foolishless laid it out quite well earlier. B) Having the players we think are most likely to be town in the minority is beneficial to town. Lets even fast forward a few days and imagine we have found ourselves a few confirmed townies. Obviously it is advantageous for town to keep those players in the minority. If we agree to those two premises, then we can all co-operate and make it happen. We take 5 or 6 players and agree to put them on the minority list. Everyone else agrees to go on the majority list. Why does everyone else agree? Because they realize that if they don't, then scum gain an incredible amount of power to do what they want. The reason scum gain this power, is because they have an information advantage, and can generally lean to get whomever is scummiest on their team into the minority, and the other 2 into the majority. In the event they fail it's still a win for them, since they have 2 players in the minority and only 1 in the majority. This is what we as town need to seek to prevent. What if you feel you yourself should be on the minority list? Doesn't matter. If you think you're townie enough to be on the minority list, you have nothing to fear from the votes. What if you feel someone SHOULDN'T be on the minority list, but is? Great! Lets talk about it, lay out your reasons. If they continue to be scummy and people agree with you we can swing them on over. What if Mafia decide to not follow the plan and jump to the minority list? Great! Every player who jumps ship immediately spotlights themselves. That is fantastic for town. If enough scum jump ship all at once, we get a flip flop on the M/M, and lynch into the jumpers. Again that's fantastic. Anytime scum want to come out and yell " I'M SCUM!", we should let them. Any other questions that I've missed?
This doesn't even make sense. |
| | No sir I fully get it, however unless I can unlaunch my nuke there is not much we can do about it. I also wasn't posting as much because I didn't fully read the rules yet LOL! - RebirthofLegend in WaW Mafia |
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| gonzaw Uruguay. May 01 2012 08:10. Posts 3087 | Profile # |
About the plan:
On May 01 2012 06:15 Ace wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 06:12 gonzaw wrote:
On May 01 2012 06:09 wherebugsgo wrote:
On May 01 2012 06:02 gonzaw wrote:Okay I'm back. Just skimmed through the thread, and Palmar's plan seems to catch the gist of the plan I mentioned before. Have scummy people in the majority, and most townie ones in the minority. This seems to fulfill that, and it requires cooperation from people, so it's fine for now and we can focus on scumhunting. I don't really like that the power is on Palmar alone, that introduces quite variance. I doubt he's scum, since I've read games where he was scum and he just spams and trolls on D1. However, even if he's town, he could be easily manipulated by scum, either making him give scum information, or having Palmar make bad calls and reads because of them. That's why I don't like "1-man" plans. I don't know who said it before, but having a small "counsil" of players determining who is in the minority and who isn't is even better, since there will be more players to bounce reads on, and it will be hard for scum to manipulate them, even if one of them is scum. However, I have a better alternative (although I don't think it can be implemented this Round A): Have people Vote in the thread who they want to be in the minority Seems easy enough, people put " ##Pardon: Player X" in the thread. We set a deadline (maybe 4-6 hours before Round A ends), and then all votes are taken into account. The players that received more Pardons will be put into the minority (following the same system from Palmar) This takes away the power from Palmar/syllo themselves to determine who is in the minority (which is what many people had problems with), but the core of the system (having townies in the minority, having scummy people in majority) remains the same. Anyways, I'm gonna eat something and read the thread again.
Man if you're town please don't play like you did in LI, because that'll mean I'll be subconsciously ignoring all your posts. I can't believe you seriously think that we should vote for a pardon; it's such a colossal waste of time and it's incredibly easy to manipulate for scum.
You can do it the other way round: Have each player vote for 3-5 players that they think should be in the majority. Once the virtual deadline hits, all votes are counted, and those that received LESS votes are put in the minority. That way scum won't actively be able to determine who gets in it or not.
Lettuce ask a very zimple question hear: How do you put people in the minority?
If enough people agree with a plan then those players will follow it and vote YES or NO depending on what the plan says.
If a majority of players follow the plan, it means town as a whole (in a sense) follows the plan, so any townie that doesn't follow it is going against town's wishes, and he should know that. Therefore, that townie will have to comply with town regarding this plan and vote accordingly. If that happens, then every townie will follow the plan (some because of own choice, some because they do it for the greater good), and thus scum will be forced to do it as well. Anybody that doesn't do so is put under heavy scrutiny.
In that way, then yes you can get people into the minority.
It's just like another lynch, if you are town and end up lynched it's most likely your fault for being scummy.
If you are town and end up in the majority this game, it's most likely your fault for being scummy too, so you should shut your mouth and comply with town and get into Round B.
Here is what I think:
Everybody in the thread makes 3 up to 5 votes on players they think is scum and should be in the majority, just like always:
##Vote: Player X
##Vote: Player Y, etc
We will also set a "virtual deadline". It is a deadline where all these "pseudo-votes" will stop being taken into account, and they will be counted.
This can be 6 hours before the deadline, or maybe less or more. It should be at some time that it gives people enough time to place their votes (to all timezones and shit).
When the "virtual deadline" hits, then we choose the amount of players we want in the minority (4, 5, maybe even 8) depending on how many scum there are, or other plans of ours (or we can set it at a certain number since the beginning), and the players that received the least amount of votes will be put in the minority.
How? Read that thing I said above. They cooperate and we force the minority that doesn't agree with it to do so (as in, even if they don't agree they should comply and do it for the sake of town).
Then, the most scummy people will be in the majority, the most townie people will be in the minority, and it won't depend on the reads and power of 1 or 2 players alone, but it depends on town collectively.
Again, this only works if everybody cooperates and agrees with it, but just like the manga, that's the point of the Liar Game.
Just like the manga, you have to trust us that it will work.
About VE vs wherebugsgo:
After LIII I'm mostly ignoring VE when he "finds scumslips" and "instantly figures someone is scum in the first 10 minutes".
VE seems to act like his townie self, or at least like in LIII and not like in LI, so I think his "find" is legit.
However it seems stupid as fuck, wbg doesn't openly discuss with VE in PMs and he instantly FoSes him because of that.
I don't think wbg is town for now, and I don't see him contributing as I'd hope for, but if you want to convince me he's scum try harder and actually make a case against him, instead of cloggin up the thread with this "PM" thing you found.
Speaking of which, I am suspicious of wbg, because he doesn't seem to contribute too much. He just complains to people and nothing else, doesn't even try to actively scumhunt.
At Palmar:
Please check that plan I posted, and comment on it. I think it's better than what you are doing, and I don't want you to have all the power, at least not in subsequent days (Day 1 is fine though)
Suspicions:
Cephiro:
Filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034&user=183812
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=5#84
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=5#87
I found this odd, because you started very aggresively. There were some good plans (mine) floating around, and you behemently opposed them.
The point is that you didn't come up with any of your own or try to generate any other discussion. You inserted doubt into plans and just bickered about them, you didn't come up with content of your own.
Well, maybe honestly you thought those plans were bad, so that in itself wouldn't bother me.
However, you post this:
I'm not expecting to see gamebreaking strategies (especially ensuring as making them work flawlessly is quite hard), so please concentrate on finding the scum instead of trying to come up with some epic plan. And don't get greedy. If we find someone that we are sure to be scum, then do everything possible to get that person killed or lynched. If we try to get greedy and be smartasses and try to lynch three scum at once, it'll most likely bite ourselves in the ass.
You are giving the usual "People stop discussing policy lynches/plans/shit and start finding scum!", yet I don't see you following your own advice.
When someone asked you for your reads, you said "At the moment I am afraid to tell you I have no reason to share my reads with you.".
What? You said we should try and find scum, but you don't want to contribute your reads?
You started very aggressive and "keen" to find scum, but you were inactive for some time later and when you came back you didn't put any effort into doing so.
I know how you can play as town Cephiro, I observed Death Factory and you were contributing and making plans like crazy.
Being this aggresive and indifferent to plans is unlike you.
chaoser:
Filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034&user=41788
I agree with Foolishness with some points, but I'm mostly suspicious of him because of some of the same things Cephiro did:
He spends 80% of his effort discrediting other people's plans, he's very aggressive about it, and doesn't seem to put effort in anything else whatsoever.
When called out he gets VERY defensive, and even more aggressive against people.
Also there's this:
On May 01 2012 04:18 chaoser wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 04:04 syllogism wrote:
On May 01 2012 03:56 chaoser wrote:
If i had to lynch someone today, it'd be palmar
Ah yes, the good old "lets attract as much attention as possible and establish an obvious link between each other" strategy in a two scum team game. Do you genuinely believe this?
Before the game started, I was thinking that if I was mafia I would come out of the gate very strong, use the WIFOM of "he's so out there, there's no way he's mafia" card and then make it to day 3 or 4 by way of offering an audacious plan. There's no way such a person wouldn't attract a medic or something, as can be seen in A LOT of TL games (specifically in space station with sandro's strong coming out). Even if I didn't attract a medic, the other mafia family probably won't shoot me because they'd fear a medic protect anyway. It was more of a solo plan that I was thinking about but having another person along would make it even more "out there". Mafia win the game by outnumbering townie, not by having as many people stay alive till the end. If mafia can waste enough time to get to LYLO, it doesn't matter what the town does since it's very rare for town to play perfectly once LYLO is reached, especially if mafia has been defending townies as well as teammates. So much WIFOM at LYLO means mafia will probably win. That's how I always play as mafia; go look at that game where Ver was badass professor. Had mafia pushed that last lynch on a townie instead of on me, town would have been at LYLO and would have been fucked. Barundar and GM had believed and supported me the whole way, they were definitely going to be mislynched sooner or later. Even if most of my team was lynched after reaching LYLO, mafia would have probably won. That's why as soon as palmar busted out with his plan, I was very very suspicious because it was going down exactly how I thought a mafia would play it. Having one person in power in this game is actually really bad
Seems quite a farfetched reason to justify his FoS on Palmar.
It also seems odd that he's using it as a reason for him being town.
It's like if I said "Before the game started, I knew that if I rolled scum I would PM everybody, create a fake town circle and give everybody miss-information, I would get mass-claims from everybody, I would control the thread atmosphere and have nobody suspect me at all and coast to victory flawlessly. Obviously that isn't happening therefore I'm town".
He's overstating his scum play so he can convince people he's town, and I doubt a townie would do that (well, a townie other than wbg/Ace/those guys).
Those are the guys I'd want to lynch for now, hopefully they get in the majority.
I will check other players too...at least when i get the filter list >_> |
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| gonzaw Uruguay. May 01 2012 08:12. Posts 3087 | Profile # |
EBWOP:
For now I believe we should follow Palmar's plan, because we don't have time to do anything else.
That means, those "Pardoned" vote NO, and the rest vote YES, at least just for today. We can talk more about what plan to implement on Night 1 and Day 2 Round A.
So I'll vote NO |
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| Radfield Canada. May 01 2012 08:15. Posts 2680 | Profile # |
VE, answer my PM please 
Also, why shouldn't we co-operate? Fuck Palmar and fuck his reads. Lets pretend he's not even in this game.
Now lets talk about how we can get the best town reads we've got onto the minority. It really shouldn't be too hard should it? We simply have everyone on the majority, and add in players to the minority as they turn green. We also happen to have some players who are really good at finding townies. I like to think I'm one of them. You don't need to do exactly what I say, and I'm often wrong, but probably not more that 1/5 or 1/6 times. When I have a whole town contributing their reads, I get a whole lot better, we all do. So lets work together and put our town reads in the minority.
Practically every game of mafia slowly gets a build up of 'very likely townies' that most of the player base agree too. All we need to do is co-operate and have those folks vote one way, and the rest of us vote the other. Easy peasy.
And no townie should be afraid to be in the majority. If you're worried you'll get lynched, then hike up your socks and play the game. Find a better alternative, etc etc. We all know the drill and we're all up for lynch in pretty much every game of mafia ever, so don't be afraid of this one.
Again: no townie needs to fear being in the majority. |
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| VisceraEyes United States. May 01 2012 08:16. Posts 9680 | Profile Blog # |
I'm voting no to get into the minority.
FYI.
See how fucking stupid this plan is?
^^ |
| | Come on and give it to me. Come on and die. ****TL MAFIA LI - NEVER FORGET**** |
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