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| syllogism Finland. May 05 2012 15:46. Posts 5335 | Profile # |
| Sloosh: Palmar was supposed to vote prplhz and forgot I guess |
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| EchelonTee United States. May 05 2012 15:56. Posts 3403 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 06:48 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:30 gonzaw wrote:About BC:
On May 05 2012 04:36 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
On May 01 2012 21:10 Palmar wrote:
I want to kill VE
On May 02 2012 07:40 Katina wrote:
On May 02 2012 07:09 VisceraEyes wrote:
My reads are all very weak because I'm basing them on what I perceive to be what is the best for town, which in this game I'm not sure I even know what the best course of action for town is going to be.
That being said, my scumreads are:
Ace, wherebugsgo, Meapak | | chaoser, Katina, EchelonTee
Don't expect reasoning. It's true, all of my votes are on Sandroba. I feel like he's town and scum are pushing easy mislynches.
I apologize to everyone for my apparent lack of concern for this game, but I've earnestly been playing and trying to find scum regardless of what you may perceive in the thread. But several peoples' attitudes this game (Ace and bugs come to mind) have made this game completely not fun for me to play any longer.
O.o I like this. If I had a dime for a everytime someone called me scum without reasoning I would have enough hookers to serve the entire mafia community. Rawr. After going back and rereading, I think that Radfield, VE, Sandroba, EcholenTee should die in the Majority. I have explained Rafield and EcholenTee in one of my previous posts. VE and Sandroba should die for not helping the town. By the way Palmar is Mafia.
On May 01 2012 15:03 Foolishness wrote:
First we should focus on who we want to kill. Personally I'm fine with VE or sandroba at this point (going to hold off on chaoser for now) and I could be convinced for Radfield as well.
I realize this will be difficult but we need some sort of collective agreement on who to kill. As long as the majority (no pun intended) of us agree on a lynch target then it will be easy to ensure they are killed.
For example, say we want to kill sandroba. That leaves 9 people we want to save. We have a total of 90 votes to work with. We vote in such a way to get each 9 players to have 10 votes. This will be done via spreading out (each player will vote for 5 separate people instead of piling all 5 votes on one person). Thus if anyone (dumb townie or mafia) tries to save him they will be unable to get enough votes to do so. And obviously if someone tries to deviate in such a manner we shoot them somehow.
On May 02 2012 06:13 gonzaw wrote:
About VE:
I was leaning town on him at first, because he was very aggressive, and at first he was actively trying to find some scum on wbg (although in a retarded fashion).
However, since then he's just trolling, being disruptive, acting defeated even though not many people actually FoSed him or anything.
Is this a trend or something? It's been 3 games in a row were people FoS VE and he starts acting like a crybaby and rage quitting.
I'm comparing this to LIII, where he had quite a few votes on him when he ragequitted, and quite a lot of opposition. And there he at least contributed with his reads as well, and also claimed.
But now he had hardly any pressure at all when he started acting like this, and didn't contribute at all afterwards. I could see his motivation for ragequitting on LIII, but now I don't see any motivation for him to do so, specially when there isn't a normal lynch system in this game.
That makes me think he's most likely mafia
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You are right syllo, both you and bugs never actively said that you wanted ve or ace dead. I do have bugs saying he believed VE was scum in pms though. As such I do have palmar, katina, foolishness, bugs and gonza all fine with VE, and confrontation between ace and many of you via his filter. So i have 5 of 6 people fine with killing a townie, and another large group at confrontation with one who died who was being aggresive towards what you guys were doing.
Ehmm, wtf are you arguing about? You wanted VE dead too, here:
On May 02 2012 11:04 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
On May 02 2012 10:50 gonzaw wrote:
I don't get why no one of you would even try to cooperate.
At this rate the lynch could be on any of chaoser, VE or Sheth, and scum can choose whoever they like of them to save or kill, specially considering some players seem that they won't claim what they will exactly vote..
@Cephiro: Okay, so you are tunneling wbg now and being greatly aggressive against him too just for calling you out (effectively another OMGUS)
Noted.
The thing I don't get is why the hell Ace is playing like he's playing. I know people fear him and shit when he's scum because he's cunning, sways people, etc...but unless I'm missing something in PM land he's just completely useless this game. I even doubt he's scum because of that, but fuck he's being so uncooperative and useless it's hard to believe that.
Why would anyone fear ace? He is by far one of the easiest people to deal with in the game. If you think hes useless lynch / shoot him. If you think hes helpful, dont lynch or shoot him and instead med him. As for pm land, it is doubtful he is highly active there as he is renowned for saying how much he hates pm's. As for general way thread is going at the moment. If VE honestly dropped a ton of votes on sandro he has to go. As much as I believe acting individually during phase A is ideal to avoid mafia manipulating the majority/minority system to always be safe, phase B is more important in regards to making sure the scummiest player or if we all agree, players are lynched. Anyone who blatantly refuses to go along with a decision that everyone was basically in agreement of (or at least if they weren't no solid defense was ever provided of sandro) then that person has to be dealt with somehow to avoid continued purposeful sabotage of the voting period. Sandro has yet to come in and provide a reasonable defense of himself. I say this as he made his comment on what he had been up to, but had not at any point then followed it up with any form of solid town sandro play to assure us our worries were unfounded. Has anyone new information on this? VE, why have you gone so suddenly appearing so damn crazy -_-.
Yet you are just rambling against syllo/Palmar/wbg/me/etc about "wanting to kill a townie"? Hypocrite much? BC, yes you've made some "analysis", but to be honest it's not very convincing, and it's buried in 1000 posts about you bitching against everybody. Just taking a look at your filter, every post of yours is a GIGANTIC WALL OF TEXT THAT DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING. For example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=44#866What does this say? Almost nothing. You just complain against Katina/syllo and keep complaining about people "sheeping", and saying that you are against "scumhunters that don't scumhunt publicly". Everything else is clutter that only serves to disrupt. Also, I see you say you make "analysis" and the like, but you still ignore important matters of the discussion. For instance, I don't think I've seen your actual thoughts on Cephiro yet, or at all this game. You said he was "annoyed at being prodded", nothing else. Instead of arguing, making gigantic walls of text filled with clutter, why don't you actually push those reads of yours? Why don't you stop disrupting the thread and post concise analysis, reasonings, etc?
About Sheth:Okay so you say you are not sure about Cephiro, that you will reread his posts to make up your mind and that you are 50/50 on him, yet as soon as Round B starts you say you'll give all your votes to him. What's worst, you never MENTION THAT AGAIN. Wtf? You've made the scummiest move in all game and you just shrug it off? Even after you make a list of reads (that don't include Cephiro), and people ask you for your thoughts on Cephiro you just say "I didn't forget anything. I commented on Foolishness' list.", and you never mention again. However you mention once again then:
On May 05 2012 03:14 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Ok after reading through BC's filter I like him. He has strong reads on Katina (whose I have a life defense I thought kind of lame). And I haven't looked at prplhz, but he has a read on him as well.
I actually appreciate him not trusting Palmagism. As I'm somewhat in that same vote except I only distrust the gism part. So I don't mind Cephiro defending BC because earlier BC defended Cephiro. I'm still at around 50/50 for Cephiro btw.
What? You now still think Cephiro is "50/50"? Bullshit. You've been defending him all game, calling him town, and now you give your 5 votes to him. There's no way you think he's "50/50". Even worse, you don't put any reasoning behind your read at all. And again YOU DON'T JUSTIFY YOU GIVING YOUR 5 VOTES TO HIM. Speaking of that list of "reads" of yours:
On May 05 2012 03:03 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Here are my reads :
BC - Suprised everyone thinks hes mafia. However I can see it a bit as he didn't really talk to me much and he provided me 4 votes out of no where. I do appreciate it BC, but I'd like to know the reason behind it.
Syllo - I'm unsure. I think he has a 60% chance of being mafia, but a lot of people I talk to think hes 100% town... I'm sticking with my thinking that he has a good chance of being mafia.
Palmar - Towniest Townie to Town.
Gonzaw - 59% mafia due to his early tunneling / anger against Cephiro. I'm not sure though Gonzaw I would like to keep you around for another day to see more.
Foolishness - I don't have much of a read on you.
Katina - We've played a few games together and I dont' think we've ever PM'ed or talked together once. Whats up? What are your reads?
WBG - I like WBG so far. I'm content with him living.
You are "unsure" of everybody. You are wishy washy as hell. You don't state any reasoning behind anybody. You say things like "I like wbg so far".....???? Syllo and me are 60% scum in your opinion, but you don't say anything, you even imply that you think we are null or something. Apparently you think syllo and me are scum, yet you actually treat us as null reads. You never push us, you never make any analysis on us, nothing. You just skate by the game and act all "good boy" and shit. This is Day 2 and you act like it was 1 hour in Day 1. You don't read anybody's filter, you say "I haven't read him yet" every time and yet you fail to do so. You base some of your reads on things that happened like 2 days ago (you think I'm scum because I was "aggressive" against Cephiro like 3 days ago, yet you mention nothing else at all). Yes, you are scum Sheth. You appear to be absolutely ignorant of everything that's happening in the thread (which is bullshit), and you don't even care about it. Even worse you act like it's nothing and do whatever you want.
To chaoser:I see you haven't answered my new PM yet. Doesn't matter, answer me here then. Why do you think ET is scum? What do you think of Cephiro?
I care about whats going on. It was just a tough day1 with me having little time. Today I'm starting to get more ideas and reads. I'm also not acting or scum.
"more ideas" - sounds promising. what ideas? don't see any.
"i'm also not acting or scum" - convincing defense yo
if there are pms i didnt respond to I'll get to them tomorrow. |
| | learn lots. dont judge. laugh for no reason. be nice. seek happiness. -D[9] || Na`Vi - LGD - Dignitas - Liquid - Fnatic |
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| syllogism Finland. May 05 2012 16:30. Posts 5335 | Profile # |
| Foolishness I would be very interested to hear who you would like to lynch tomorrow. |
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| Palmar Iceland. May 05 2012 17:58. Posts 7576 | Profile Blog # |
Yeah sorry guys.
For integrity's sake I meant to stick 5 votes on prplhz, I fell asleep when I was putting my daughter to sleep last night so I forgot. I apologize to the players and the hosts.
Seems like it didn't change the outcome so I guess it's ok. |
| | ♥ http://www.iron-edge.co.uk ♥ | |
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| Palmar Iceland. May 05 2012 18:07. Posts 7576 | Profile Blog # |
On May 05 2012 05:20 chaoser wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:17 Palmar wrote:
btw, you were the first guy in the thread to use the term "pro town", that makes you 100% scum (look it up if you don't trust me).
??? what does that even mean? how does that make him 100% scum?
My point proven. |
| | ♥ http://www.iron-edge.co.uk ♥ | |
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| wherebugsgo United States. May 05 2012 18:25. Posts 7930 | Profile Blog # |
On May 05 2012 17:58 Palmar wrote:
Yeah sorry guys.
For integrity's sake I meant to stick 5 votes on prplhz, I fell asleep when I was putting my daughter to sleep last night so I forgot.after playing DoTA2. I apologize to the players and the hosts.
Seems like it didn't change the outcome so I guess it's ok.
oops
be glad sandro gave him that 1 vote!
Speaking of sandro, how come you never made that case on Meapak, scumdroba? |
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| syllogism Finland. May 05 2012 18:26. Posts 5335 | Profile # |
| The funny thing is that I told sandroba to spread his votes like that |
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| wherebugsgo United States. May 05 2012 18:31. Posts 7930 | Profile Blog # |
Sheth, two questions:
what was the purpose of saying in thread you were giving votes to Cephiro/what did you get out of it?
Why did you choose to tell Meapak that you were lying and not anyone else? |
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| prplhz Denmark. May 05 2012 22:21. Posts 3911 | Profile Blog # |
| i'm gonna 5 sandro next B |
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| Palmar Iceland. May 05 2012 23:18. Posts 7576 | Profile Blog # | |
| | ♥ http://www.iron-edge.co.uk ♥ | |
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| slOosh May 06 2012 00:19. Posts 1908 | Profile # |
wherebugsgo (15) Meapak_Ziphh (5), Liquid`Sheth (4), chaoser (3), prplhz (2), BloodyC0bbler (1)
Foolishness (14) Katina (5), Mr. Wiggles (4), chaoser (2), EchelonTee (2), sandroba (1)
Katina (10) Foolishness (5), gonzaw (3), Mr. Wiggles (1), sandroba (1)
Palmar (8) syllogism (5), prplhz (3)
gonzaw (7) EchelonTee (3), slOosh (3), sandroba (1)
EchelonTee (7) gonzaw (2), slOosh (2), Liquid`Sheth (1), sandroba (1), wherebugsgo (1)
Meapak_Ziphh (6) wherebugsgo (4), BloodyC0bbler (2)
Cephiro (2) BloodyC0bbler (2)
prplhz (1) sandroba (1)
BloodyC0bbler (0) Nobody
Do you guys think this is reflective of Meapak's alignment?
Because the votes are hidden (opposed to D1 where there was a spreadsheet / VE just dumped a bunch on sandroba), scum are unsure of exactly how many votes they need to save their buddies if they are in risk of getting lynched. They have to run the gambit of if they put too much and it doesn't seem necessary it draws attention to themselves, but too little and it might not be enough to save a friend (or maybe even the opposing family scum as they want to survive town lynches).
BC's two votes seem to fit that bill with Cephiro (whom I and most others think is scum) - and it looks like it could also be the case for Meapak. Are there PM's that can support either side? |
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| EchelonTee United States. May 06 2012 01:49. Posts 3403 | Profile # |
| It's something, but not individually conclusive I would say. You have to take everything scum do with a grain of salt; what if he stuck those votes on them specifically to make them look worse? An opposite example would be when VE continuously exposed in TL Mafia LI "lynch toad, lynch toad, lynch toad"; when VE flips red, it would seem to make toad look green in comparison, but it turned out to be a bus. In this case, you can look at the scenario and see how scum BC could've tried to save MZ/Cephiro as such, but tbh that seems like too obvious/sloppy of a play unless he knew Cephiro was in danger of dying. Esp. with MZ those 2 votes can't be "the case" on meapak; there has to be more to call him scum. |
| | learn lots. dont judge. laugh for no reason. be nice. seek happiness. -D[9] || Na`Vi - LGD - Dignitas - Liquid - Fnatic |
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| slOosh May 06 2012 02:21. Posts 1908 | Profile # |
But that is my point - he didn't know (unless WBG / Syllo want to chime in otherwise), and by extension his scum team didn't know. But just because he didn't know doesn't mean he would have just voted someone who had no chance of dying - he probably anticipated the possibility of his death and thereby used his votes in a way that furthered his team's agenda.
Furthermore, 2 votes seems premeditated. It pushes players into a threshold in which they cannot be lynched if someone else has 0 or 1 votes - this seems significant because it is the fine balance between wanting someone not to die but also being able to argue / explain the votes in a non incriminating way. Say he dumped 5 votes on Ceph and he somehow survived - barring getting into the minority there is no way that he isn't going to get lynched next day. Yet putting 1 vote may not be enough to save them, and might result in multiple people dying.
I agree that this is not individually conclusive - as it could be him putting suspicion on MZ. That is why I'm asking if anyone has PM logs that may shed more light on the situation. |
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 Liquid`Sheth United States. May 06 2012 02:37. Posts 2025 | Profile Blog # |
On May 05 2012 18:31 wherebugsgo wrote:
Sheth, two questions:
what was the purpose of saying in thread you were giving votes to Cephiro/what did you get out of it?
Why did you choose to tell Meapak that you were lying and not anyone else?
The point of saying that I was giving my votes to Cephiro was primarily to get information out of syllogism and his group. I figured this would set them off and I'd learn from it. Ironically I learned a ton from PM'ing with Cephiro about this action. It also stirred up some people and some people ignored it or thought it looked ok. So mainly I just got a great read on Syllogism with it. Who I think is townie now a days.
I didn't only tell Meapak. The reason for telling meapak was just that it felt fine. I couldn't spread it to too many people and telling meapak is a two edged sword. If more then one person votes on Cephiro and provides him plenty of votes then theres a good chance someone I told was mafia. If they didn't get a great amount of votes then I trust that person slightly more at little to no cost to me. I realize its not "great" play, but I just wanted to gain a little more knowledge from people outside of the thread. And it worked out ok for me. |
| | Underneath it all they were really quite nice. They just got screwed up. Mostly by stuff that wasn't entirely their fault. |
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| Liquid`Sheth United States. May 06 2012 02:37. Posts 2025 | Profile Blog # |
| Oops meant to say PM'ing with Syllogism. (We talked quite a bit about Cephiro lol) |
| | Underneath it all they were really quite nice. They just got screwed up. Mostly by stuff that wasn't entirely their fault. |
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| slOosh May 06 2012 02:44. Posts 1908 | Profile # |
| What do you think about Cephiro now? |
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| Foolishness United States. May 06 2012 03:23. Posts 2324 | Profile Blog # |
On May 05 2012 16:30 syllogism wrote:
Foolishness I would be very interested to hear who you would like to lynch tomorrow.
sandroba/Cephiro. I don't see how there can be much debate anymore about this. Though I suppose I can get behind a Sheth lynch.
Palmar
syllogism
Katina
gonzaw
Foolishness
wherebugsgo
There is a very very high chance that there is one mafia in that list (and that mafia is not on BC's team). By process of elimination I still advocate that it is Palmar as I more strongly believe the rest are townies (yes I know syllogism, you are 99% Palmar town).
I just want people to be aware of that and thinking about it in the future. I'm not advocating we shoot Palmar or anyone else in that list right now. Attention should be shifted to the other list from day 1, as I think it's likely there are 4 mafia in that list (and I'm definitely sure there's at least 3).
I'd also like to point out the minority list from day 2:
chaoser
Liquid`Sheth
Mr. Wiggles
Radfield
sandroba
syllogism
Again we should assume there are at least 2 mafia in this list (of opposite families). At least one person in this list is part of BC's family. Let's assume that sandroba is mafia. Given how he was nearly killed day 1, I think it's safe to assume that sandroba's two mafia members were in the majority list day 2. Their mafia team voted 2-1 with sandroba as the 1 so that he would have a stronger chance of being in the minority (and thus we would not be able to kill him). So if sandroba flips mafia it is safe to assume that nobody else on the above list is on his team.
If sandroba is mafia, then there's two mafia on the same team in the majority list. I think it's most likely that BC and sandroba are on the same team. I would also put Cephiro as their third member. Here's the majority list for day 2 again:
BloodyC0bbler
Cephiro
EchelonTee
Foolishness
gonzaw
Katina
Meapak_Ziphh
Palmar
prplhz
wherebugsgo
Since BC is mafia, and since everyone seems to agree that there is only 2 mafia in the day 1 minority list, it is also safe to assume that one of BC's allies is in the above list. This goes back to Katina's argument about the cycles. Mafia teams will always vote 2-1 and will alternate between members who is the 1. This is because they don't not want to continuously vote the same 2-1 as it will become very suspicious later on in the game that the same people are voting the same way.
What am I getting at? First day BC's mafia team made BC the 1 and his other two members were the 2 and in the majority. Day 2 and the switch to a different member. Which member is most likely to switch to? sandroba.
Is it likely that sandroba is part of the other mafia team? I don't think so. That means we need 2 people in the day 2 majority list who are on his team, one of which is from the day 1 minority list. As the day 1 minority list has players everyone seems to perceive as town, and going that mafia team's cycle, this would mean that there are 4 mafia (including BC) in the day 2 majority list. That basically means that of the following players:
+ Show Spoiler +Cephiro
EchelonTee
Foolishness
gonzaw
Katina
Meapak_Ziphh
Palmar
prplhz
wherebugsgo
there are 3 mafia. I don't find it reasonable that there are 3 mafia in the above list, but if I had to choose it would be Cephiro, Meapak, and Palmar. But even then that's a big stretch as I believe syllogism when he says Palmar is town and I'm leaning town on Meapak.
That was a bit confusing. My overall point is that if sandroba is mafia then he's on the same team as BC. I also think it's likely that each of the day 2 minority/majority lists have 3 mafia in them.
For the long run, I think it makes sense to kill sandroba/Cephiro first. We then shoot into chaoser/sloosh/Sheth/maybe Meapak. Either way we shoot into the day 1 majority list. |
| | "Home is not where you live...it is where you are understood.".....Executive Logistics Director of the TL Mafia forum |
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| syllogism Finland. May 06 2012 04:05. Posts 5335 | Profile # |
| If I happen to die tonight, listen to Palmar first, WBG second and no one after that unless they tell you to. Thanks. |
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| Mr. Wiggles Canada. May 06 2012 05:47. Posts 4683 | Profile Blog # |
On May 06 2012 00:19 slOosh wrote:
wherebugsgo (15) Meapak_Ziphh (5), Liquid`Sheth (4), chaoser (3), prplhz (2), BloodyC0bbler (1)
Foolishness (14) Katina (5), Mr. Wiggles (4), chaoser (2), EchelonTee (2), sandroba (1)
Katina (10) Foolishness (5), gonzaw (3), Mr. Wiggles (1), sandroba (1)
Palmar (8) syllogism (5), prplhz (3)
gonzaw (7) EchelonTee (3), slOosh (3), sandroba (1)
EchelonTee (7) gonzaw (2), slOosh (2), Liquid`Sheth (1), sandroba (1), wherebugsgo (1)
Meapak_Ziphh (6) wherebugsgo (4), BloodyC0bbler (2)
Cephiro (2) BloodyC0bbler (2)
prplhz (1) sandroba (1)
BloodyC0bbler (0) Nobody
Do you guys think this is reflective of Meapak's alignment?
Because the votes are hidden (opposed to D1 where there was a spreadsheet / VE just dumped a bunch on sandroba), scum are unsure of exactly how many votes they need to save their buddies if they are in risk of getting lynched. They have to run the gambit of if they put too much and it doesn't seem necessary it draws attention to themselves, but too little and it might not be enough to save a friend (or maybe even the opposing family scum as they want to survive town lynches).
BC's two votes seem to fit that bill with Cephiro (whom I and most others think is scum) - and it looks like it could also be the case for Meapak. Are there PM's that can support either side?
I don't think BC's votes say too much about either Cephiro or Meapak. Like you said, it could be that one of them (or both, though that seems unlikely) are on his team, and he wanted to save them. On the other hand, maybe that's what he wants us to think and they're really town, and so on into WIFOM Hell.
I think it's better to just look at them based on their own merits and not factor in the votes. Even if they weren't on BC's team, and he is trying to incriminate them, there's nothing stopping them from being on the other team, so it's not like it clears them, and if we think they're scummy enough, we'll lynch them anyways. |
| | "Dulce et decorum est pro Aiur mori" -Zealot | TL Mafia is the best sub-forum around, no lie! |
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| gonzaw Uruguay. May 06 2012 05:51. Posts 3087 | Profile # |
On May 06 2012 02:37 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 18:31 wherebugsgo wrote:
Sheth, two questions:
what was the purpose of saying in thread you were giving votes to Cephiro/what did you get out of it?
Why did you choose to tell Meapak that you were lying and not anyone else?
The point of saying that I was giving my votes to Cephiro was primarily to get information out of syllogism and his group. I figured this would set them off and I'd learn from it. Ironically I learned a ton from PM'ing with Cephiro about this action. It also stirred up some people and some people ignored it or thought it looked ok. So mainly I just got a great read on Syllogism with it. Who I think is townie now a days. I didn't only tell Meapak. The reason for telling meapak was just that it felt fine. I couldn't spread it to too many people and telling meapak is a two edged sword. If more then one person votes on Cephiro and provides him plenty of votes then theres a good chance someone I told was mafia. If they didn't get a great amount of votes then I trust that person slightly more at little to no cost to me. I realize its not "great" play, but I just wanted to gain a little more knowledge from people outside of the thread. And it worked out ok for me.
What do you mean by the bold? You think Cephiro is mafia and his scumbuddies would give him votes or something?
Anyways, so you are saying that all your behaviour last day was a façade to figure out syllo's alignment? Even you being "unsure" about everybody and ignoring everything happening in the thread and everybody else?
Couldn't you just try to figure out syllo's alignment or his group by reading their posts or PMing them directly? You decided to play as scummy as possible to do so? |
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