 sewergoat United States. April 29 2012 14:12. Posts 97 | Profile # |
Hello TL!
I am here today to discuss the unique ZvP style of SlayerS_YugiOh which was showcased in his series in Code A vs. MVPvampire. This is my first topic in the forums so please excuse any faults.
Edit: Apparently this style has been used before by players such as Lowely and others. It is akin to a two base muta style.
It can also be seen in a previous series between YugiOh and JYP.
The Style:
+ Show Spoiler +This style of ZvP is characterized by an early pool, and 2 hatch opening (as opposed to 3), and early infestors. Once infestors are researched, a third is taken, and spines are used to prevent aggression from the protoss. Lings are used to maintain map control and hive/spire is started around 11:00 (before a 4th is taken). While this build has some midgame weaknesses due to lack of production from an early third, it is beneficial in other ways and is a nice change of pace from the standard early 3 hatch.
The General Build:
I put this general order together from the third game in the series between Yugioh and Vampire, as the production tab was not up for some key moments in the first game. One important note to include is that he always puts an overlord at the third of the protoss and spreads creep to delay it.
+ Show Spoiler +
9 - overlord
12 - pool
15 - overlord
15 - queen, 2 sets of lings
21 - hatch
20 - queen
23 - overlord
23 - gas @ 150 minerals
@ 100 gas - Lair (~5:30)
6:00 - second gas
bunch of lings (for map control, denying expo's, killing pylons, backstabs, and eventually, banelings.)
@ Lair completion - infestation pit, 3rd and 4th gases
Get a third queen to defend the third hatch you are about to make from potential void rays
When infestation pit is finished and pathogen glands are started, get a third (8:00)
8:30 rw and evo(if an attack is scouted) or speed and evo
When pathogen glands is around 1/3 complete or at 33, make infestors (4-6)
roach upgrades (if defending vs pressure)
hive+spire (11:30ish)
Advantages and Disadvantages
+ Show Spoiler +
Advantages:
Early lair for quick overseer and scouting
Not as macro-intensive as a 3 hatch opener
Protoss opponents will be unfamiliar with this opener
Super fast broodlords (will not have to worry about that 17 minute attack by protoss, as broods will be out before then)
Disadvantages:
Weak to timing attacks or 2 base all ins (unless you spine and scout properly)
Relatively low econ while getting broodlords means you cannot afford to lose too much
Feel free to let me know if you can think of more! I will add them!
Endgame
+ Show Spoiler +
While the path to the lategame in this style is definitely different from standard zvp, the result is still the same. The ultimate goal remains mass broodlords with some infestor support. While he still gets neural to deal with motherships, YugiOh does like to keep around 6-8 corruptors to snipe the mothership it if wanders out of position and around 20-25 banelings to throw into any vortex. He also keeps around 5-6 queens with his brood ball in order to provide mass transfusions to keep the broods alive as long as possible. He also makes sure his bases are defended with spines and spores to prevent damaging harass.
VODs
The only VODs of this style I have seen include the series vs Vampire. Even if you don't have a GSL season pass you will still be able to see the first game in the series, in which he uses this style.
+ Show Spoiler +
About me
+ Show Spoiler +
My ID is onyxAnubis and I am a low master zerg on NA. I never really favored the 3 hatch opener and have been looking for different styles of ZvP to make the game a little more interesting. While I usually doubt most new strategies and label them as "gimmicky", I think the fact that this style was used successfully by a mid-top tier Code A player twice gives it some legitimacy. I have yet to try this on ladder as I only watched the VODs a few days ago and haven't gotten many ZvP's.
Last edit: 2012-04-29 23:19:42 |
| | Silence is better than bullshit |
|
|
| monk United States. April 29 2012 14:39. Posts 6784 | Profile Blog # |
| This used to be a very popular strategy back when infestors were super imba, raping stalkers and neuraling colossi. One potential problem is that it's pretty autoloss vs 2 base colossi all-in, but that's really uncommon especially if the toss sees you're on 2 base, most likely signifying mutas. |
| |
|
| nath United States. April 29 2012 14:45. Posts 1315 | Profile Blog # |
 LoWeLy uses this style, right? most slow-droning, low-econ, fast-tech favoring zergs (i would actually classify them as a breed of zerg player, albeit very rare) use this style.Last edit: 2012-04-29 14:46:34 |
| | Founder of Flow Enterprises, LLC http://flow-enterprises.com/ |
|
|
| HeavOnEarth United States. April 29 2012 14:48. Posts 6627 | Profile Blog # |
On April 29 2012 14:39 NrGmonk wrote:
This used to be a very popular strategy back when infestors were super imba, raping stalkers and neuraling colossi. One potential problem is that it's pretty autoloss vs 2 base colossi all-in, but that's really uncommon especially if the toss sees you're on 2 base, most likely signifying mutas.
vs colossi u use mass IT, then swarm in with zerglings and 1-2 fungals to force an engage, stephano wrecked this protoss earlier using the mousewheel macro haha
(also add a few corrupters for collo timings)
Its hard but definitely not autoloss
now archons into any mix of units vs this opener
... pretty hard LOL Last edit: 2012-04-29 14:50:22 |
| | "come korea next time... FXO house... 10 korean, 10 korean" |
|
|
| usNEUX United States. April 29 2012 15:16. Posts 75 | Profile # |
Using this style opener in high diamond (2 base, gas around 20 supply or so) often seems to send protoss players into panic mode. The last 3 times I've done it I've seen the toss drop 3 extra cannons when they see my lings...
At the very least it's great for keeping the metagame moving. |
| | Unter allem Diebesgesindel sind die Narren die schlimmsten. Sie rauben euch beides, Zeit und Stimmung. - Goethe. NEVER GIVE UP NEVER SURRENDER. |
|
|
| oOOoOphidian United States. April 29 2012 15:21. Posts 1235 | Profile # |
| You can easily get hive just as fast with a 3 hatch build too. I do it when a toss takes a fast third with stalker/sentry/immortal. |
| | http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian |
|
|
| ThePlayer33 Australia. April 29 2012 15:27. Posts 2377 | Profile # |
| Yugioh vs JYP iirc is another example. yugioh fighting |
| | | Idra | YuGiOh | Leenock | Coca | |
|
|
| terranuapart Canada. April 29 2012 15:34. Posts 62 | Profile # |
On April 29 2012 14:39 NrGmonk wrote:
This used to be a very popular strategy back when infestors were super imba, raping stalkers and neuraling colossi. One potential problem is that it's pretty autoloss vs 2 base colossi all-in, but that's really uncommon especially if the toss sees you're on 2 base, most likely signifying mutas.
what? 2 base collosus timing will crush a 2 base muta |
|
|
| monk United States. April 29 2012 15:35. Posts 6784 | Profile Blog # |
On April 29 2012 15:34 terranuapart wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 14:39 NrGmonk wrote:
This used to be a very popular strategy back when infestors were super imba, raping stalkers and neuraling colossi. One potential problem is that it's pretty autoloss vs 2 base colossi all-in, but that's really uncommon especially if the toss sees you're on 2 base, most likely signifying mutas.
what? 2 base collosus timing will crush a 2 base muta
Mutas can be in your base before you have 1 colossi. |
| |
|
| terranuapart Canada. April 29 2012 15:41. Posts 62 | Profile # |
you're not going to have a signifcant number of mutas at ~9:00 so thats not a problem. having my stalkers / sentries in mineral lines with putting a cannon at each will prevent much damage from being done. hitting at ~11:00 (maybe 11:20 - 30 with addition of cannons) with 3 collosus , ~20 stalkers and 8 sentries is too powerful to stop , your not going to get a critical number of mutas on 2 base to overwhelm it.
e: but not trying to start an argument this build is nice and could catch some toss offgaurd Last edit: 2012-04-29 15:44:59 |
|
|
| InfusedTT.DaZe Romania. April 29 2012 15:54. Posts 509 | Profile # |
collosi timings or archon compositions archon templar stalker or smth
Or... if you scout the fast hive you should just atack and win most of the times, any unit comp you use |
| | "Echoes of past events nudge the tiller on my present course, I await its reflection in the future" |
|
|
| monk United States. April 29 2012 15:55. Posts 6784 | Profile Blog # |
On April 29 2012 15:41 terranuapart wrote:
you're not going to have a signifcant number of mutas at ~9:00 so thats not a problem. having my stalkers / sentries in mineral lines with putting a cannon at each will prevent much damage from being done. hitting at ~11:00 (maybe 11:20 - 30 with addition of cannons) with 3 collosus , ~20 stalkers and 8 sentries is too powerful to stop , your not going to get a critical number of mutas on 2 base to overwhelm it.
e: but not trying to start an argument this build is nice and could catch some toss offgaurd
There's a reason no toss go colossi vs 2 base muta. <.< |
| |
|
| terranuapart Canada. April 29 2012 16:11. Posts 62 | Profile # |
| I do and have literally a 100% win rate with it so i ll stick to my ways^^ , as soon as i scout the spire building with my obs i feel like i should just type gg for them Last edit: 2012-04-29 16:11:23 |
|
|
| IamPryda April 29 2012 16:19. Posts 408 | Profile # |
On April 29 2012 15:55 NrGmonk wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 15:41 terranuapart wrote:
you're not going to have a signifcant number of mutas at ~9:00 so thats not a problem. having my stalkers / sentries in mineral lines with putting a cannon at each will prevent much damage from being done. hitting at ~11:00 (maybe 11:20 - 30 with addition of cannons) with 3 collosus , ~20 stalkers and 8 sentries is too powerful to stop , your not going to get a critical number of mutas on 2 base to overwhelm it.
e: but not trying to start an argument this build is nice and could catch some toss offgaurd
There's a reason no toss go colossi vs 2 base muta. <.<
monks right most cases even if u take no damage and push out u still wont win because if u cant out right kill the zerg with one push u lost because once u move out he will unpower all your gateways kill a ton of workers and have built 20 spines at his natural. on the bright side 2 base muta sucks vs 2 base blink stalkers all in |
| |
|
| schmutttt Australia. April 29 2012 16:21. Posts 1575 | Profile # |
On April 29 2012 16:11 terranuapart wrote:
I do and have literally a 100% win rate with it so i ll stick to my ways^^ , as soon as i scout the spire building with my obs i feel like i should just type gg for them
No offence but I'm sure this is more down to poor execution by the Zerg, monk is right no-one at pro level goes 2 base colossi vs fast muta. |
|
|
| terranuapart Canada. April 29 2012 16:34. Posts 62 | Profile # |
On April 29 2012 16:19 IamPryda wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 15:55 NrGmonk wrote:
On April 29 2012 15:41 terranuapart wrote:
you're not going to have a signifcant number of mutas at ~9:00 so thats not a problem. having my stalkers / sentries in mineral lines with putting a cannon at each will prevent much damage from being done. hitting at ~11:00 (maybe 11:20 - 30 with addition of cannons) with 3 collosus , ~20 stalkers and 8 sentries is too powerful to stop , your not going to get a critical number of mutas on 2 base to overwhelm it.
e: but not trying to start an argument this build is nice and could catch some toss offgaurd
There's a reason no toss go colossi vs 2 base muta. <.<
monks right most cases even if u take no damage and push out u still wont win because if u cant out right kill the zerg with one push u lost because once u move out he will unpower all your gateways kill a ton of workers and have built 20 spines at his natural. on the bright side 2 base muta sucks vs 2 base blink stalkers all in
the thing with a 2 base collosus push is it will kill them , easily if theyre going mutas. lings and spines? collosus melt both. if you think u can get a critical mass of muta off 4 gas to overrun the army? your delusional. |
|
|
| HaXXspetten Sweden. April 29 2012 16:37. Posts 15716 | Profile Blog # |
| In addition to the players already mentioned, I've seen Bly do this a decent amount as well. |
|
|
| terranuapart Canada. April 29 2012 16:40. Posts 62 | Profile # |
On April 29 2012 16:21 schmutttt wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 16:11 terranuapart wrote:
I do and have literally a 100% win rate with it so i ll stick to my ways^^ , as soon as i scout the spire building with my obs i feel like i should just type gg for them
No offence but I'm sure this is more down to poor execution by the Zerg, monk is right no-one at pro level goes 2 base colossi vs fast muta.
and how common is it for a zerg to go quick muta off of 2 base atm .. ? back when it was somewhat popular ive used it to melt countless "pro" zergs on the NA ladder if you want to call them that. so i doubt it was bad exection on their part. zerg going muta off 4 gas just doesnt cut it vs a good amount of stalkers + sentry / gs and collosus melting everything on the ground. |
|
|
| Arcanefrost Belgium. April 29 2012 17:20. Posts 1119 | Profile Blog # |
On April 29 2012 16:11 terranuapart wrote:
I do and have literally a 100% win rate with it so i ll stick to my ways^^ , as soon as i scout the spire building with my obs i feel like i should just type gg for them
If you do an allin attack vs a mutaplayer he will basetrade and win easily. |
| | Valor is a poor substitute for numbers. |
|
|
| terranuapart Canada. April 29 2012 17:24. Posts 62 | Profile # |
On April 29 2012 17:20 Arcanefrost wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 16:11 terranuapart wrote:
I do and have literally a 100% win rate with it so i ll stick to my ways^^ , as soon as i scout the spire building with my obs i feel like i should just type gg for them
If you do an allin attack vs a mutaplayer he will basetrade and win easily.
not at all vs the timing i do. i dont know how everyone here is getting some godlike muta count at 10:15~ off 2 base but you should share your secrets! |
|
|
| 1 2 3 Next All |
|
Store
