[D] PvZ - Establishing third with Skytoss (viable?)

With airtoss playign defensive you are gonna loose alot to just mass roaches/ling ignoring your air and just sniping the nexus and remaxing to keep your eco low. Tbh i dont see it working. Even if you get your third up the zerg will at one point have 1 billion corrupters and you will die. Your army is also slow so him hitting your natural/3rd with roaches will make it even more difficult. thinking about it he could even just drop a nydus in ur main and you would have to react with probes. or overlord drop ur main and ur air army would be at ur 3rd defending.

Air is just too slow and fragile if you ask me

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Nyast Belgium. May 22 2012 20:45. Posts 497

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On May 22 2012 20:26 Chillypill wrote:
With airtoss playign defensive you are gonna loose alot to just mass roaches/ling ignoring your air and just sniping the nexus and remaxing to keep your eco low. Tbh i dont see it working. Even if you get your third up the zerg will at one point have 1 billion corrupters and you will die. Your army is also slow so him hitting your natural/3rd with roaches will make it even more difficult. thinking about it he could even just drop a nydus in ur main and you would have to react with probes. or overlord drop ur main and ur air army would be at ur 3rd defending.

Air is just too slow and fragile if you ask me

Have you.. like... even watched the replays ? Or read the OP ?

Rimak Latvia. May 22 2012 20:45. Posts 408

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On May 22 2012 20:26 Chillypill wrote:
With airtoss playign defensive you are gonna loose alot to just mass roaches/ling ignoring your air and just sniping the nexus and remaxing to keep your eco low. Tbh i dont see it working. Even if you get your third up the zerg will at one point have 1 billion corrupters and you will die. Your army is also slow so him hitting your natural/3rd with roaches will make it even more difficult. thinking about it he could even just drop a nydus in ur main and you would have to react with probes. or overlord drop ur main and ur air army would be at ur 3rd defending.

Air is just too slow and fragile if you ask me

I'm sorry, but did you even read 1 review of the build, or watched a single replay?
I even don't have the words to describe how wrong you are.
Please get familiar to the topic, and I'll gladly discuss it's weaknesses.

But roach and mass-corrupter is NOT counter to the build.

! <3 1A

Mythal Spain. May 22 2012 20:47. Posts 98

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On May 22 2012 20:26 Chillypill wrote:
With airtoss playign defensive you are gonna loose alot to just mass roaches/ling ignoring your air and just sniping the nexus and remaxing to keep your eco low. Tbh i dont see it working. Even if you get your third up the zerg will at one point have 1 billion corrupters and you will die. Your army is also slow so him hitting your natural/3rd with roaches will make it even more difficult. thinking about it he could even just drop a nydus in ur main and you would have to react with probes. or overlord drop ur main and ur air army would be at ur 3rd defending.

Air is just too slow and fragile if you ask me

Have you watched any replays?

That's why there is a mothership early on. Allows cloacking of the buildings as well as recall of your air army.

And FYI, corrupters are pretty useless against voidrays.

Edit: Ninjaed by Rimak

Last edit: 2012-05-22 20:49:03

"I wanna read the diary not smoke it!"

AmericanUmlaut Germany. May 22 2012 20:48. Posts 2251

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On May 22 2012 20:26 Chillypill wrote:
With airtoss playign defensive you are gonna loose alot to just mass roaches/ling ignoring your air and just sniping the nexus and remaxing to keep your eco low. Tbh i dont see it working. Even if you get your third up the zerg will at one point have 1 billion corrupters and you will die. Your army is also slow so him hitting your natural/3rd with roaches will make it even more difficult. thinking about it he could even just drop a nydus in ur main and you would have to react with probes. or overlord drop ur main and ur air army would be at ur 3rd defending.

Air is just too slow and fragile if you ask me

Please read this thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=338557) before posting in this discussion any more. This post doesn't add anything at all to the discussion. You simply dismiss a strategy as unviable without referring to any of the information that's already been posted regarding it, and without introducing any information of your own that would back up your statements.

The frumious Bandersnatch

Rimak Latvia. May 22 2012 21:07. Posts 408

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On May 22 2012 20:12 -MoOsE- wrote:
what type of opening do you guys do with this build? I like to open up the double gate zealot with +1 attack because I really don't need my cyber core early. I like to put them down at the same time and this attack seems to work well and force roaches while using a minimal amount of gas.

Right now I usually start of:

FFE > SG> Beacon>+SG

@100% Core +1 Air Att & +1 Shields (approx at same time)
@4 VR - Harass zerg's 3rd or Nat.
@100% Becon - MS + Prepare for 3rd,
@6 VR - 2 VR on main, 4 on nat or 3rd (check what tech he got Hydra, muta or infestor) - Very important is not to lose more than 1 VR.
@100% MS - 3rd should be almost done, so i just float it over.

Then transition into additional tech
HT if Hydra/infestor.
DT (into Archon) if Corrupter, HT's later.

It's basic, so it varies depending how the game goes, but it's something like that.

! <3 1A

SupplyBlockedTV Belgium. May 22 2012 21:28. Posts 200

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Thanks for this..this works great at diamond/low master level..it just all comes down to mining from 3bases most of the games (thus you need to be able to secure a fourth..but this is easy with minirals overflowing and spamming cannons..most of the time)

Its funny how people say that there is no way this can work.. it works fucking great, but it is this linear thinking of people that makes builds like this not the new metagame...because skytoss has great potential.

winrate above 80% with this build

Zerg also love this build:
[image loading]

Last edit: 2012-05-23 02:36:29

PEW PEW PEW

denyeverything May 23 2012 09:57. Posts 24

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On May 22 2012 16:33 Rimak wrote:

Show nested quote +

So basically now you harrass with 5 phoenix, instead of 4 VR?
If so then:
Pros:
- It hits earlier
- Easier to snipe queens.
- Better map-control
- Perfect scouting of Z
- Discourage muta-play (or if he still plays, you aleready have starting fleet)
- Forces a lot more spores/queens

Cons:
- No building damage
- Forces Infestors (?)

You should be able to do 2 rounds of attack.

1. With initial 5 PHX
2. When your anion-pulse crystals and +1 will kick in (and you can do multi--pronged attack with 2 VR on the other side of map)

Correct me if i'm wrong.

Yeah, that's the theory. The biggest fear I'd have is that they'd just say screw it and go roach on you, but you could delay +1 for Warpgate, cancel your Phoenixes for a warp in round if needed. Losing building damage isn't that huge, as at 3 base it's going to be hard to take one down anyways.

Also Infestors (while great units) are probably the preferred Zerg response, as it benefits them to delay attacking to build up energy which gives you time to build up your fleet.

CrAzEdMiKe Canada. May 23 2012 15:07. Posts 151

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I've been playing this style a fair bit vs Zerg lately and I've been growing to like it more and more as I get more familiar with it. Something I've been doing after I get my third up is just straight up going for High Templar fairly quickly, as you'll either need energy for Storm (as well as researching storm asap) or Archons to take care of those Corrupters.

As a result, I've been transitioning into Carriers once I have a healthy Void Ray count. If they choose to go Hydras vs Carriers you giggle like a little girl, and if they choose to go Corrupters the Archons just rip them to shreds... Since they have to focus fire the Carriers in order to take them down, they clump up like mad allowing the Archons to mow those Corrupters down at a frightening speed.

It's been working for me nicely and it's a lot of fun to play... As it is definitely a rage inducer. =D

denyeverything May 23 2012 23:03. Posts 24

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On May 22 2012 20:08 ineversmile wrote:
There's also something else to note about Phoenix pressure: you can attack queens very efficiently, and this disrupts the production cycles of the zerg. You can only get so many drones with Phoenix because of the low total energy at that early timing, and you can only really get one hatch down/force one cancel with early Voids, but you can almost assuredly pick off a couple queens and mess up the injects. Less injects=less larva=worse macro=smaller army at your doorstep.

It seems more efficient than killing half a dozen drones, which are way easier to replace for the Zerg. Figure you can get 1-2 Phoenixes, use the initial ones to clear the ovies near your base, and then go right towards their main when you hit 4 and have 1-2 more on the way. This way you scout immediately, check what the tech is, kill a queen, and move to the natural to repeat the process. Then you go to the 3rd, snipe the queen, and you've killed roughly half the production of the zerg, which really eats into their timings. You can back off and let shields regen on the phoenixes at that point, but still have them be active on the map checking for overlords that might have slipped through the crack, and they're always a threat to be able to snipe queens again further down the road or to be the foundation for countering Mutas.

For my money, I want Phoenixes first and Voids second, unless I'm using the Void specifically for defense. I would rather screw up the production than have a shot at canceling/killing a third, which good zergs just won't allow in most cases.

Yeah, killing Drones (unless you kill a lot of them quickly) is a waste. You have to remember that Zerg isn't restricted to one building to build Drones, so they recoup their losses much quicker than other races. However, forcing them to rebuild a Queen means that they lose 50 seconds of building Drones. Don't forget that you don't only screw up larva injects, but also creep tumors which is huge as well.

Once range is upgraded, I would imagine that it's going to be really difficult to keep Overlords safe and almost impossible to scout with them. Follow that up with some Warp pylons to warp in Zealots to control Drone/Zergling scouting, and you get a lot of map control.

On May 23 2012 15:07 CrAzEdMiKe wrote:
I've been playing this style a fair bit vs Zerg lately and I've been growing to like it more and more as I get more familiar with it. Something I've been doing after I get my third up is just straight up going for High Templar fairly quickly, as you'll either need energy for Storm (as well as researching storm asap) or Archons to take care of those Corrupters.

As a result, I've been transitioning into Carriers once I have a healthy Void Ray count. If they choose to go Hydras vs Carriers you giggle like a little girl, and if they choose to go Corrupters the Archons just rip them to shreds... Since they have to focus fire the Carriers in order to take them down, they clump up like mad allowing the Archons to mow those Corrupters down at a frightening speed.

It's been working for me nicely and it's a lot of fun to play... As it is definitely a rage inducer. =D

Don't forget to snag a few Sentries for Guardian Shield.

Templars are a great transition afterwards though, both High and Dark, as you can remax on them insanely quickly. Just don't forget to start building Gateways rather than Cannons once they get an opposing fleet up.

Last edit: 2012-05-23 23:03:48

Bahajinbo Germany. May 27 2012 07:36. Posts 325

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I must admit: I am stunned. I always wanted to find a way out of the annoying lategame against Brood Lords and well, here it is. The fast Mothership really gives you a great defense and even offensive potential because of the mass recall.
Just tried this build and I am surprised that it is even strong against mass Hydras. Infestors are of course a big threat to this build, so High Templars and Feedback are very important in the lategame.

Thanks a lot for this build, I will try to experiment with it. :D

@ Xenocide_EU:
Haha, got to love this screenshot.

Last edit: 2012-05-27 07:37:50

Fogetaboudit United States. May 27 2012 07:57. Posts 232

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yeah its a nice way to force the zerg down a path that doesnt involve mass broodlord

SidewinderSC2 United States. May 27 2012 09:12. Posts 207

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I like the idea, and I have done similar things.

A couple things I think need to be said:

In the times I've done this, I've actually opened 3 Stargates on 2 bases and have done a 5 Void Ray + 3 Phoenix (and 3 Phoenix at a time rallying) timing attack to give me an opportunity to take my 3rd base and deal a lot of damage/force a lot of crappy units out of Zerg. While I'm not sure that's the most amazing way to play, it at least outright won some games if they underprepared for the attack. It relied purely on micro, so days where my micro was spot-on I'd lose no units and kill a hatch plus about 5 queens.

Most of all, I felt this option was the most safe against Muta, Roach and Infestor builds from Zerg. Using Void Rays only can result in a lot of probe death unless you have a reliable way to scout Muta and switch heavily into Phoenix usage. I'm also not sure how well you would fare against somebody going really fast 3-base Infestor without some sort of solid 2-base timing to cripple Zerg if he cuts corners. Kinda seems like tons upon tons of Infested Terrans would either kill a Nexus or trade very favorably with your Void Rays. There's also a big timing in which I think you'd be weak due to not having enough energy on the Mothership for a vortex.

My build also skipped the Mothership until later because I felt like I needed Carriers and Phoenix more quickly to deal with Hydralisk timings.

Secondly, I feel like builds such as this one and my own of similar concept work better on Zergs that have no idea what is going on. It's pretty much guaranteed that even mid Master or high Master Zergs have seen builds like this maybe a couple times, ever, and never bothered to figure out the intricacies. So I feel like it's a ladder or best-of-X build, rather than a solid, go-to build for every game against opponents that have seen it and studied it before. There's nothing wrong with that, but I think you might get a lot of crap because of this.

Lastly, I feel like most people have a poor understanding of how to support Carriers. Void Rays and Phoenix can support Carriers but only for so long. You need some form of ground and air AOE so you can repel Corrupters, punish them for clumping and still be able to deal with Infestors and Infested Terran swarms. My answer has always been Storm or Archons. Many people die because they stay on Carrier, Void Ray, Phoenix for too long, including pro games like Lure vs YugiOh(?).

Edit: Sorry, some of my post got out of order.

Last edit: 2012-05-27 09:18:26

SidewinderSC2 United States. May 27 2012 09:15. Posts 207

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Oh, and here's some media from the few games I used this type of build (as I described above):

http://drop.sc/157622 - vs ~1100 point Master Zerg
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/548/unitslost2.png

Nyast Belgium. May 27 2012 21:53. Posts 497

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On May 27 2012 09:12 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
Lastly, I feel like most people have a poor understanding of how to support Carriers. Void Rays and Phoenix can support Carriers but only for so long. You need some form of ground and air AOE so you can repel Corrupters, punish them for clumping and still be able to deal with Infestors and Infested Terran swarms. My answer has always been Storm or Archons. Many people die because they stay on Carrier, Void Ray, Phoenix for too long, including pro games like Lure vs YugiOh(?).

Personally, I only add archons when I reach my 200/200 and have a solid fourth established. I feel that before that, dumping my gas into archons ( or templars ) makes my air army too weak in numbers, and it can be defeated by mass corruptors/infestors.

My plan now looks like this:
- I open 1 stargate into phoenixes, for scouting ( vs fast mutas ) and snipping overlords/queens
- I immediately get a fleet beacon and drop my 2nd stargate. From now on, I transition to full voidrays
- when my mothership is around 50% done, I get my third and start to get mass cannons there. I also solidify my natural.
- once the mothership is out, I move it to my third. I start carefully start harassing with voidrays. If I spot hydras, infestors or corruptors, I'll go back to play defensively for a while.
- once I have 8+ voidrays, I start to mix in some carriers. I usually get 4 stargates by the time my 3rd is well established, and produce half-half voidrays/carriers. I also crank up my air upgrades by getting a second core.
- once I reach a threatening looking number of carriers and voidrays ( 5-6 carriers, 12+ voidrays ) I start to get my fourth. I'll also attempt some expo snipping using recall.
- at this point I start to mix in some templars/archons to complete my compo. I sacrifice zealots by doing run-bys if I still have zealots left ( note: I do warp zealots on 4+ gates in the mid-game when I see hydras/roaches pushes. They help a ton to tank for your voidrays ).

Welmu Finland. May 27 2012 22:16. Posts 3246

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I tried this few times and both times big mass of infestors just destroyed it totally

twitter.com/NrSWelmu | facebook.com/Welmu11 | twitch.com/Welmu1

Bahajinbo Germany. May 27 2012 23:04. Posts 325

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@Welmu:
When did the infestors attack you? In the mid or late game? It's interesting to know because I still have to find out what is the best time to get High Templars. And against mass infestors you have to get a high number of HTs to feedback those nasty infestors.

CrAzEdMiKe Canada. May 27 2012 23:07. Posts 151

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On May 27 2012 22:16 Welmu wrote:
I tried this few times and both times big mass of infestors just destroyed it totally

Were you attacking? Were you defending? Around what time? Did you recall? Did you tech to High Templar?

Those are my primary questions regarding being "totally destroyed" by infestors... And I do believe that this build should blind tech to High Templar, as they basically help deal with anything that will be threatening to your Void Rays/Carriers.

Bahajinbo Germany. May 27 2012 23:19. Posts 325

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By the way: How do you incorporate a Robo into this build or do you even build one? Get it after the first two Stargates or maybe later?
Yesterday I got a Robo after my 3rd for some observers to deny creep spread and also to intercept the attack paths of Zergs army.

Fogetaboudit United States. May 28 2012 03:32. Posts 232

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On May 27 2012 23:19 Bahajinbo wrote:
By the way: How do you incorporate a Robo into this build or do you even build one? Get it after the first two Stargates or maybe later?
Yesterday I got a Robo after my 3rd for some observers to deny creep spread and also to intercept the attack paths of Zergs army.

you said it

I get mine sometime after my third is up, mostly just for observer for the reasons you mentioned. You can throw up a BAy/ seocond robo when your fourth is making against dedicated infestor/Hydra/Queen.