[D] PvZ - Establishing third with Skytoss (viable?) - Page 7

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On May 02 2012 17:31 WinWalk wrote:

Let me put it in a simple way. Your win rate using this strat may be 80%+ in amateur plays. but I will say it drops below 50% in pro plays (even both sides are pro players). That's why pros don't use it but I agree that it is a very good stra for amateurs to WIN a game.

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On May 02 2012 22:52 straycat wrote:
I think that this is definitely one of those strategies that will be almost autowin if the opponent does not identify it and takes measures against it early on. Barring a lot of infestors getting dream fungals off, I don't see anything stopping the void ray clump. Somebody did this to me on ladder and beyond a certain number of void rays it is very hard to do something about.

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On May 02 2012 23:20 Treehead wrote:
If you scout spire, do you tech switch to phoenixes then? Or do you somehow still beat them with voids?

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On May 02 2012 22:29 TechSc2 wrote:


Let me put this in a simple way

White-ra does something similar
Parting does something similar

Two of the pro scene protoss plaers and i bet there are more who at least try to fiddle around with 2 stargate into third builds.

If you want to discount White-ra and parting into the amateur leauges, be my guest. But the main thing you are missing here is that the DRG/Stephano style also took like 2-3 months to be completely figured and and be as strong as it is now. It used to be a joke that the zergs came with 30 roaches to deny your third, now it's 60 roaches.

So unless you come with evidence that zergs have over 60% winrate against this strategy, you have no grounds to call for a bad build, or call it amateur league stuff

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On May 02 2012 16:01 Fogetaboudit wrote:


Of course its not hard to max on roaches?!, the questions is how much damage can they do before they get killed, and how much did you invest into them.

Just because you ran around in monobattles and sniped some bases doesn't mean roaches never die.

Unfortunately most people that I face abandon roaches when they see mass voidray+cannon+MS (imo for good reason)
But people here are theorycrafting that irreversible damage can be dealt, before the roaches die off. I would like to practice against a Stefano style and see if an equally skilled player could break me, I seriously doubt it. I think there is so much you can accomplish with a good sim city and highground/well placed cannons/micro. Also, there is nothing wrong with cancelling your third, waiting a minute or two, and planting it back down... your tech is so much superior and when you have a critical VR mass the zergs army becomes more and more useless, and you are going to kill his units more and more efficiently (to justify a delayed third, if you even had to delay it in the first place.) imho.

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On May 03 2012 05:39 PandaMonk wrote:
Sounds really cool for a toss tryign to mix it up, but a little gimmicky . I think the game could end up a couple of ways, First, someone starts with the standard 3 hatch rw evo business and while you have double stargate trying to haras they just counter and kill you (Stephano vs Hero). There could also be a timing similar to the GSL when Nestea was playing Inca where Nestea's increased production and econ just rolled him. Sounds interesting though.

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On May 03 2012 05:28 CoR wrote:
mass infestor hardcounter it hard,
you cant recall units that are taken from zterg so if he fungal the infestor and take 3-4 voids you will lose them (if u recall the taken units stay there cause they not count as your units)

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On May 03 2012 01:13 WinWalk wrote:


From what we have seen in the pro games, this is not a commonly used stra ( even some pros do similar stuff occasionally), do you consider this some kind of evidence? I don't call it a bad build but pros decide this is not a good everyday use build. The risk is too great in pro scenes.

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On May 01 2012 10:13 Fogetaboudit wrote:


Lings versus voidrays/mothership/cannons doesn't end up well for the Zerg. Mass ling is much more destructive with run-by harass, into the main, if I'm too slow to close the chokes/complete a wall. However, this is me screwing up simple micro, not a theory issue.

"Kill all of your VR and probes" it doesnt really work this way.

You will probably lose your first 3 void rays if you are poking his third and 13 mutas hatch, however even though this trade is crappy for you, he is comitted to Muta Ling, spent a ton of Gas on it, and there is enough time to ball up the rest of your VRs with your MS to "zone", switch to phoenix, and throw down emergency cannons, warp in stalkers, etc. The longer the game goes on the less worried you should be about any muta "suprise" because as the numbers start to grow Mutas don't do very well.

My third replay is a Muta game I played yesterday, of course my opponent didn't play perfectly, but it's something.

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On May 03 2012 09:47 oOOoOphidian wrote:

I am saying you will be dead before you get a third base secured or a mothership. It won't be 10 mutalisks either, it will be 20-30 by then, because the zerg was completely free to take 4 bases and fully saturate 8 gas. I watched your replay, your opponent was down on workers the entire game and made horrible decisions throwing away units for no purpose.

I could also see a massive vulnerability to roach hydra drops, as even if you can deal with the hydra count you are still too immobile and lacking in army size to defend multiple fronts.

Yeah massing void rays and spamming cannons can work if someone lets you get away with it, which is why you see it from bronze leaguers all the time, but it's really not viable if someone scouts it.

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