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| Servius_Fulvius United States. May 01 2012 02:40. Posts 947 | Profile # |
This happened to me last night. I see it happen to pro streams as well (Idra in particular is coming to mind) and they usually lose.
If you can do the drone stacking trick then it will put a quick end to it. If you can't then you need to try and prevent it. Usually 2 drones come down to expand. If you get the hatch down in your natural patrol a drone on the ramp until lings are out.
If you get blocked you can go muta, roach bust, banelings, or nydus. Either way you will be incredibly behind unless your opponent is really bad. |
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| Berailfor May 01 2012 02:56. Posts 425 | Profile # |
On May 01 2012 01:55 Siggeh wrote:It is? Do you expect 3 pylons at ur ramp when u kills his first probe? Do you patrol drone every game? I've seen IdrA, Stephano.. and a lot more good zerg gamers lose to this aswell... did they all do mistakes when letting it go up?
These players actually think about the scenario they are in and understand what they are doing... They are willing to risk being pylon blocked at their level due to the fact that it rarely happens in high level play and if it does and they lose... Well they just don't care. If they wanted to guarantee holding off a pylon block they would in fact patrol a drone. So yes they all did mistakes when they lost to a 3 pylon block when they decided not to patrol a drone when there is no neutral depot..
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| vnlegend United States. May 01 2012 03:00. Posts 1384 | Profile Blog # |
| I play random so this may not apply to you. But in ZvP I always go for 6-7 pool. Make about 6 lings, then continue droning/queen, economic play. The 6-7 pool will always mess them up and they often respond by 4-gating or having their build messed up and delayed. Your response will be to drone up for a while, then switch to roaches to defend 4 gate or kill them as they're powering economy. |
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| Clarity_nl Netherlands. May 01 2012 03:02. Posts 3283 | Profile # |
On May 01 2012 02:15 loginn wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 01:55 Siggeh wrote:
your fault for letting it get up.
It is? Do you expect 3 pylons at ur ramp when u kills his first probe? Do you patrol drone every game? I've seen IdrA, Stephano.. and a lot more good zerg gamers lose to this aswell... did they all do mistakes when letting it go up?
Yes it's their mistake for letting it go up.
Well.... yes.
BUT I can see the mindset of: if he pylon blocks my ramp I hereby declare this game meaningless.
Assuming your end goal is cups/tournaments/LANs. |
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| NOOBALOPSE Canada. May 01 2012 03:52. Posts 802 | Profile # |
On May 01 2012 00:21 NOOBALOPSE wrote:
1 base muta auto win I'm pretty sure.
User was warned for this post
WTF? I wasn't trolling... Wow. Not nice !
Also, at 3:05 I saw stephano bring a drone down to his natural to make sure this doesn't happen when I was watching his stream today. He 14 pools btw, and it was on Antiga.Last edit: 2012-05-01 03:53:26 |
| | Go ExG! watch my stream - twitch.tv/exgnoobalopse ♥! Follow me on twitter@NooBaSC |
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| aebriol Norway. May 01 2012 04:01. Posts 2065 | Profile # |
On May 01 2012 03:02 Clarity_nl wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 02:15 loginn wrote:
On May 01 2012 01:55 Siggeh wrote:
your fault for letting it get up.
It is? Do you expect 3 pylons at ur ramp when u kills his first probe? Do you patrol drone every game? I've seen IdrA, Stephano.. and a lot more good zerg gamers lose to this aswell... did they all do mistakes when letting it go up?
Yes it's their mistake for letting it go up.
Well.... yes. BUT I can see the mindset of: if he pylon blocks my ramp I hereby declare this game meaningless. Assuming your end goal is cups/tournaments/LANs.
Sure but I mean, I have left games as zerg if it gets up because I won't bother wasting time on it. And I've played it out with hatchery in his base spine crawler + roaches, etc ... thing is, it's a successful cheese, so you are at a disadvantage ... there's no clear c hoice to come back from it, because he succeeded in destroying your early game. |
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| Tal0n United States. May 01 2012 04:13. Posts 170 | Profile # |
use your first queen to drop a tumor to spread creep to the ramp and kill one pylon with a spineor queens. then come out with some lings and kill the cannon (10 lings kill a cannon)
make a second queen too so yo ucan keep producing drones like crazy. dont worry about your minerals stackign up, dont go lair or roachwarren or macrohatch or anything, jsut break out asap and double expand. the money he spends is equal to the money you lsoe by expanding to your nat slightly later. |
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| aznkukuboi May 01 2012 10:25. Posts 119 | Profile # |
I like how his other topic says "master" player and yet he has not thought of Stephano style roaches.
If you watch Idra, he patrols a drone outside at the ramp to prevent this. Also, 14 pool is not standard in ZvP nowadays since most ppl goes 15 pool 16 OL 16 hatch into fast third, etc. Also, pool before hatch should be able to properly defend this. ALSO, drone drilling will give you auto win since the protoss will be behind by 600 or so minerals.Last edit: 2012-05-01 10:54:20 |
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| arfyron May 01 2012 10:44. Posts 511 | Profile # |
On May 01 2012 10:25 aznkukuboi wrote:
I like how his other topic says "master" player and yet he has not thought of Stephano style roaches.
Did you read the post? |
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 Belial88 United States. May 01 2012 13:44. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
I explain this in my zvp guide
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038
Pro players don't patrol a ramp because every tournament map has a neutral depot, because they know it's clearly broken that zerg must always patrol a drone at the bottom of the ramp, because P almost always go FFE. The lost mining time from a drone patrolling the ramp for that minute, is about 1-2 drones lost by 8:00, so it's pretty imba. Blizz takes a long time to implement changes, and they don't particularly care that much about perfect balance and top tier play, so when pros play on ladder, they are playing as if it were a pro game. If someone pylon blocks it, they just leave because they know it would never happen on a tournament map. It kind of messes with the timings if you have to patrol a drone at the bottom every game.
Unless you go 10 pool or earlier, you need to patrol a drone at the bottom of the ramp, and a 2nd drone to follow the probe to make sure they don't throw any funny pylons, like behind mineral lines.
ALSO, drone drilling will give you auto win since the protoss will be behind by 600 or so minerals.
no...
You can't drone drill on most spawn locations, first off. If you are lucky, you can use some obscure mineral field far away on the map, and use shift+right click to drone drill without looking if the drones are stacking correctly.
But you have to understand, that while you pulled 15/16 of your workers to drone drill, Toss is mining with 16+ workers the entire time. You lose a lot more than 300 minerals by drone drilling with every worker for that long.
Secondly, Toss can just add a pylon and gateway, and reinforce the wall. If you could drone drill before, most of the time you can't drone drill anymore, so only 3 drones are working on a gateway. Keep in mind, you haven't been mining this whole time, while Toss has.
By the time you break the gateway, Toss can either reinforce again, or his cannon will be up, maybe more than 1 if he wanted to. You simply won't be able to take your natural, and 1 base Toss vs 1 base zerg, there is no way to win unless Toss expands recklessly and is too greedy and lets you 1 base roach him, or he lets you get a nydus into his base when it's obvious that's really the only thing you could do. |
| | How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100 |
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| Nasreth United States. May 01 2012 21:13. Posts 36 | Profile # |
Hi there! I'm currently an 800 point masters zerg. I just recently had a game where a protoss player tried to pylon contain me on daybreak and I saved the replay. I successfully denied the pylon contain and proceeded to kill him for his insolence. Here's the replay. Hope it helps!
http://drop.sc/170115Last edit: 2012-05-01 21:14:17 |
| | Why do I play Zerg? Because Kerrigan. |
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| Gamerportal United States. May 01 2012 22:34. Posts 33 | Profile # |
On May 01 2012 00:15 Siggeh wrote:Ehm, this is becoming more and more standard zvp. I go 14 pool, then expand, he goes for 3 pylons at my ramp and 2 cannons, then adds 1 more pylon to be more annoying in the end. I get so far behind... I tried a hatch outside my base and produced roaches from that base, together with my main base. I met up with the forces and went for a super early attack, but obviously he had so much more units than me omg? What could I do different this game and what should I learn from this game? Master play. Replay: http://drop.sc/169586So frustrating to lose to this slow player --_--
yea imgetting this alot, toss used to be my best vs. 
i hope theres a way to beat it lol |
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| Bellazuk Canada. May 01 2012 22:40. Posts 146 | Profile # |
On May 01 2012 00:58 Marooned wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:44 Siggeh wrote:
try to go for a 12 pool to get some early 2 lings
Do you honestly mean that I should switch up my build when I kill off his first scouting probe, as I know he will play like an ass? And btw, going for 10 / 11 / 12 pool is good for 2 base play and is more rarely used in the zvp play as you will get ur fast 3rd vs his FFE.
Dont go 12 pool to prevent block, you wont have lings in time. P can block of your ramp at 17 ish food. Btw. There is alot of people opening 12 pool into 3 base. And its not a huge eco difference, and the plus is you will always get your natural in time and you dont have to take the third (witch can be dicey if you dont drone scout, and P goes gateway expand). You can go 12 pool, drone to 16 Do double extractor trick and get queen + 2 sets of lings, then get your nat and then 19/18 ol. into normal play. Also Ive seen Zenio do this 13 pool, drone to 15, 15 ol, queen + 2 sets of lings then expands. Ive tested abit with the Zenio opening and you will be just about even drone count with a normal 15 pool, 16 hatch opening by 6 mins. You can check his ZvP on Cloud Kingdom vs Tod in this replaypack. I know for sure he does this 13 pool opening there. http://www.teamliquidpro.com/news/2012/04/26/razer-replaypack-of-the-week-32-zenio
Ive watched stephano doing the 11 pool and doing normal 3 hatch, results = same supply at 7min. Queen comes quickers so more larva , more larva = more drones, you catch up ur delay ! win.
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| | “The only thing standing between you and your goal is the bullshit story you keep telling yourself as to why you can't achieve it.” |
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| how United States. May 02 2012 00:51. Posts 526 | Profile Blog # |
| I like to go for a 12 pool to stop any of that shit, then go into the stephano build. Right when the pool finishes, send lings to his base (assuming he isn;t still trying to make cannons) and just try to back him up a little bit. Do what you can to keep those lings alive as long as you can without missing an inject. From there, max asap and don't forget to sacrifice an ovi around 8min. |
| | http://twitter.com/howsc http://howsc.com |
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| XxJuicexX United States. May 02 2012 01:10. Posts 48 | Profile # |
| you patrol a drone on your ramp to stop this. Anyway, since he invested on those pylons and canons you know he is behind as well. What i see people do is get 2 gas asap and get lair and nydus worm with roaches. |
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| Protosnake France. May 02 2012 02:42. Posts 285 | Profile # |
On May 01 2012 21:13 Nasreth wrote:Hi there! I'm currently an 800 point masters zerg. I just recently had a game where a protoss player tried to pylon contain me on daybreak and I saved the replay. I successfully denied the pylon contain and proceeded to kill him for his insolence. Here's the replay. Hope it helps! http://drop.sc/170115
That's not really helpful because there is no pylon block, a drone happen to be near the ramp when he plant down the pylon and he cant barely finish the wall
The problem is when the wall is finished, there isnt any solution for the Zerg
Also i'm tired of every P/T spouting that that you need a drone patroling down a ramp, you cant afford 1 whole min of mining time so early every game "just in-case"
This is complete imbalance |
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| Recurve May 02 2012 02:51. Posts 18 | Profile # |
| I'd say the best thing to do in this situation is get two gas and roach nydus your opponent. He obviously doesn't want to play a macro game, theres no reason why you should try to get the game back to a normal state with a huge disadvantage. Try to get it in the main if you can, or just outside the front of his base if you can't. |
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| Jinsho United Kingdom. May 02 2012 02:57. Posts 3028 | Profile # |
On May 01 2012 01:22 Maxamix wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:55 Hiea wrote:
On May 01 2012 00:52 loginn wrote:
On May 01 2012 00:47 Maxamix wrote:
Well they did add lowered supply depot at times where this strat become too popular and broken over the ladder, let's just hope that they forgot to do so on new maps and that this strat won't come back as popular
I'm pretty sure they never added depots on ladder maps.
Unless they added it the last week where I haven't played on ladder or they forgot to remove it when copying a tournament map, they were never there.
I might have confused tournament map and ladder maps for a moment, but i'm pretty sure there was some instance of maps on the ladded that had this lowered supply depot back in previous seasons
Never. |
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| loginn France. May 02 2012 03:03. Posts 498 | Profile Blog # |
On May 02 2012 02:42 Protosnake wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 21:13 Nasreth wrote:Hi there! I'm currently an 800 point masters zerg. I just recently had a game where a protoss player tried to pylon contain me on daybreak and I saved the replay. I successfully denied the pylon contain and proceeded to kill him for his insolence. Here's the replay. Hope it helps! http://drop.sc/170115
That's not really helpful because there is no pylon block, a drone happen to be near the ramp when he plant down the pylon and he cant barely finish the wall The problem is when the wall is finished, there isnt any solution for the Zerg Also i'm tired of every P/T spouting that that you need a drone patroling down a ramp, you cant afford 1 whole min of mining time so early every game "just in-case" This is complete imbalance
Of course it is but blizzard isn't going to do anything about it afaik. If it happens, it's a lost game. That's it. It's not like ladder points matter a lot anyways (at least to me)
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| | Stephano, Taking skill to the bank till IPL3. Also Lucifron and FBH |
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| Thraundil Denmark. May 02 2012 03:05. Posts 277 | Profile # |
Triple pylon block is such a pain. Yes, going 11 overpool can prevent it, but here's the big problem with 11 overpool. You go it blindly, counting 100% on the protoss to just FFE. If said protoss instead gateway expands, he will have a field day forcing incredibly expensive lings out of you in order to hold your low econ expansion. Sure, at 7:30 the build castches up and breaks even with standard 14 pools. But before 7:30, an 11 overpool has next to no defensive capabilities, and for every ling beyond your first 4 you make, you suffer hugely. Iød go so far as to say 11 overpool is BO loss vs gateway expanding protosses if they play it out well.
No, sadly at the moment the only way to prevent this from happening is to waste that minute worth of mining time, plant the 14 pool and patrol the drone. This is the primary reason I have no issue with saying a zerg must be a better player than a protoss in order for them to break even. |
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