ZvP how to win? - Page 2

On May 01 2012 01:55 Siggeh wrote:

It is? Do you expect 3 pylons at ur ramp when u kills his first probe?
Do you patrol drone every game?
I've seen IdrA, Stephano.. and a lot more good zerg gamers lose to this aswell... did they all do mistakes when letting it go up?

These players actually think about the scenario they are in and understand what they are doing... They are willing to risk being pylon blocked at their level due to the fact that it rarely happens in high level play and if it does and they lose... Well they just don't care. If they wanted to guarantee holding off a pylon block they would in fact patrol a drone. So yes they all did mistakes when they lost to a 3 pylon block when they decided not to patrol a drone when there is no neutral depot..

vnlegend United States. May 01 2012 03:00. Posts 1382

I play random so this may not apply to you. But in ZvP I always go for 6-7 pool. Make about 6 lings, then continue droning/queen, economic play. The 6-7 pool will always mess them up and they often respond by 4-gating or having their build messed up and delayed. Your response will be to drone up for a while, then switch to roaches to defend 4 gate or kill them as they're powering economy.

Marines > everything

Clarity_nl Netherlands. May 01 2012 03:02. Posts 3283

On May 01 2012 02:15 loginn wrote:

Yes it's their mistake for letting it go up.

Well.... yes.

BUT I can see the mindset of: if he pylon blocks my ramp I hereby declare this game meaningless.
Assuming your end goal is cups/tournaments/LANs.

More gg, more skill.

NOOBALOPSE Canada. May 01 2012 03:52. Posts 802

On May 01 2012 00:21 NOOBALOPSE wrote:
1 base muta auto win I'm pretty sure.

User was warned for this post

WTF? I wasn't trolling... Wow. Not nice !
Also, at 3:05 I saw stephano bring a drone down to his natural to make sure this doesn't happen when I was watching his stream today. He 14 pools btw, and it was on Antiga.

Last edit: 2012-05-01 03:53:26

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aebriol Norway. May 01 2012 04:01. Posts 2064

On May 01 2012 03:02 Clarity_nl wrote:

Well.... yes.

BUT I can see the mindset of: if he pylon blocks my ramp I hereby declare this game meaningless.
Assuming your end goal is cups/tournaments/LANs.

Sure but I mean, I have left games as zerg if it gets up because I won't bother wasting time on it. And I've played it out with hatchery in his base spine crawler + roaches, etc ... thing is, it's a successful cheese, so you are at a disadvantage ... there's no clear c hoice to come back from it, because he succeeded in destroying your early game.

Tal0n United States. May 01 2012 04:13. Posts 170

use your first queen to drop a tumor to spread creep to the ramp and kill one pylon with a spineor queens. then come out with some lings and kill the cannon (10 lings kill a cannon)

make a second queen too so yo ucan keep producing drones like crazy. dont worry about your minerals stackign up, dont go lair or roachwarren or macrohatch or anything, jsut break out asap and double expand. the money he spends is equal to the money you lsoe by expanding to your nat slightly later.

aznkukuboi May 01 2012 10:25. Posts 119

I like how his other topic says "master" player and yet he has not thought of Stephano style roaches.

If you watch Idra, he patrols a drone outside at the ramp to prevent this. Also, 14 pool is not standard in ZvP nowadays since most ppl goes 15 pool 16 OL 16 hatch into fast third, etc. Also, pool before hatch should be able to properly defend this. ALSO, drone drilling will give you auto win since the protoss will be behind by 600 or so minerals.

Last edit: 2012-05-01 10:54:20

arfyron May 01 2012 10:44. Posts 511

On May 01 2012 10:25 aznkukuboi wrote:
I like how his other topic says "master" player and yet he has not thought of Stephano style roaches.

Did you read the post?

Belial88 United States. May 01 2012 13:44. Posts 5217

I explain this in my zvp guide

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038

Pro players don't patrol a ramp because every tournament map has a neutral depot, because they know it's clearly broken that zerg must always patrol a drone at the bottom of the ramp, because P almost always go FFE. The lost mining time from a drone patrolling the ramp for that minute, is about 1-2 drones lost by 8:00, so it's pretty imba. Blizz takes a long time to implement changes, and they don't particularly care that much about perfect balance and top tier play, so when pros play on ladder, they are playing as if it were a pro game. If someone pylon blocks it, they just leave because they know it would never happen on a tournament map. It kind of messes with the timings if you have to patrol a drone at the bottom every game.

Unless you go 10 pool or earlier, you need to patrol a drone at the bottom of the ramp, and a 2nd drone to follow the probe to make sure they don't throw any funny pylons, like behind mineral lines.

ALSO, drone drilling will give you auto win since the protoss will be behind by 600 or so minerals.

no...

You can't drone drill on most spawn locations, first off. If you are lucky, you can use some obscure mineral field far away on the map, and use shift+right click to drone drill without looking if the drones are stacking correctly.

But you have to understand, that while you pulled 15/16 of your workers to drone drill, Toss is mining with 16+ workers the entire time. You lose a lot more than 300 minerals by drone drilling with every worker for that long.

Secondly, Toss can just add a pylon and gateway, and reinforce the wall. If you could drone drill before, most of the time you can't drone drill anymore, so only 3 drones are working on a gateway. Keep in mind, you haven't been mining this whole time, while Toss has.

By the time you break the gateway, Toss can either reinforce again, or his cannon will be up, maybe more than 1 if he wanted to. You simply won't be able to take your natural, and 1 base Toss vs 1 base zerg, there is no way to win unless Toss expands recklessly and is too greedy and lets you 1 base roach him, or he lets you get a nydus into his base when it's obvious that's really the only thing you could do.

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Nasreth United States. May 01 2012 21:13. Posts 35

Hi there! I'm currently an 800 point masters zerg. I just recently had a game where a protoss player tried to pylon contain me on daybreak and I saved the replay. I successfully denied the pylon contain and proceeded to kill him for his insolence. Here's the replay. Hope it helps!

http://drop.sc/170115

Last edit: 2012-05-01 21:14:17

Why do I play Zerg? Because Kerrigan.

Gamerportal United States. May 01 2012 22:34. Posts 33

On May 01 2012 00:15 Siggeh wrote:
Ehm, this is becoming more and more standard zvp.
I go 14 pool, then expand, he goes for 3 pylons at my ramp and 2 cannons, then adds 1 more pylon to be more annoying in the end.
I get so far behind... I tried a hatch outside my base and produced roaches from that base, together with my main base. I met up with the forces and went for a super early attack, but obviously he had so much more units than me omg?
What could I do different this game and what should I learn from this game?

Master play.

Replay:
http://drop.sc/169586

So frustrating to lose to this slow player --_--

yea imgetting this alot, toss used to be my best vs.

i hope theres a way to beat it lol

Get pwned

Bellazuk Canada. May 01 2012 22:40. Posts 146

On May 01 2012 00:58 Marooned wrote:

Dont go 12 pool to prevent block, you wont have lings in time. P can block of your ramp at 17 ish food.

Btw. There is alot of people opening 12 pool into 3 base. And its not a huge eco difference, and the plus is you will always get your natural in time and you dont have to take the third (witch can be dicey if you dont drone scout, and P goes gateway expand).

You can go 12 pool, drone to 16
Do double extractor trick and get queen + 2 sets of lings, then get your nat and then 19/18 ol. into normal play.

Also Ive seen Zenio do this 13 pool, drone to 15, 15 ol, queen + 2 sets of lings then expands.

Ive tested abit with the Zenio opening and you will be just about even drone count with a normal 15 pool, 16 hatch opening by 6 mins.

You can check his ZvP on Cloud Kingdom vs Tod in this replaypack. I know for sure he does this 13 pool opening there.
http://www.teamliquidpro.com/news/2012/04/26/razer-replaypack-of-the-week-32-zenio

Ive watched stephano doing the 11 pool and doing normal 3 hatch, results = same supply at 7min. Queen comes quickers so more larva , more larva = more drones, you catch up ur delay ! win.

“The only thing standing between you and your goal is the bullshit story you keep telling yourself as to why you can't achieve it.”

how United States. May 02 2012 00:51. Posts 526

I like to go for a 12 pool to stop any of that shit, then go into the stephano build. Right when the pool finishes, send lings to his base (assuming he isn;t still trying to make cannons) and just try to back him up a little bit. Do what you can to keep those lings alive as long as you can without missing an inject. From there, max asap and don't forget to sacrifice an ovi around 8min.

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XxJuicexX United States. May 02 2012 01:10. Posts 48

you patrol a drone on your ramp to stop this. Anyway, since he invested on those pylons and canons you know he is behind as well. What i see people do is get 2 gas asap and get lair and nydus worm with roaches.

Protosnake France. May 02 2012 02:42. Posts 285

On May 01 2012 21:13 Nasreth wrote:
Hi there! I'm currently an 800 point masters zerg. I just recently had a game where a protoss player tried to pylon contain me on daybreak and I saved the replay. I successfully denied the pylon contain and proceeded to kill him for his insolence. Here's the replay. Hope it helps!

http://drop.sc/170115

That's not really helpful because there is no pylon block, a drone happen to be near the ramp when he plant down the pylon and he cant barely finish the wall
The problem is when the wall is finished, there isnt any solution for the Zerg
Also i'm tired of every P/T spouting that that you need a drone patroling down a ramp, you cant afford 1 whole min of mining time so early every game "just in-case"
This is complete imbalance

Recurve May 02 2012 02:51. Posts 18

I'd say the best thing to do in this situation is get two gas and roach nydus your opponent. He obviously doesn't want to play a macro game, theres no reason why you should try to get the game back to a normal state with a huge disadvantage. Try to get it in the main if you can, or just outside the front of his base if you can't.

Jinsho United Kingdom. May 02 2012 02:57. Posts 3022

On May 01 2012 01:22 Maxamix wrote:

I might have confused tournament map and ladder maps for a moment, but i'm pretty sure there was some instance of maps on the ladded that had this lowered supply depot back in previous seasons

Never.

loginn France. May 02 2012 03:03. Posts 485

On May 02 2012 02:42 Protosnake wrote:

Of course it is but blizzard isn't going to do anything about it afaik. If it happens, it's a lost game. That's it. It's not like ladder points matter a lot anyways (at least to me)

Stephano, Taking skill to the bank till IPL3. Also Lucifron and FBH

Thraundil Denmark. May 02 2012 03:05. Posts 277