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| theleo_ua Ukraine. May 03 2012 03:22. Posts 103 | Profile # |
On May 01 2012 10:03 Game wrote:
I'll submit more to the prize pool if someone can build me a bot for each race with proper timings that I can practice verse. In fact, I'd be willing to donate a few hundred to someone who could do that and was available to make edits to the bot upon my request.
I have same thoughts in 2000 (the year, when someone discovered "Corsair + DT" build order on Lost Temple in PvZ). I decided to make an UMS map, where computer will attack me with corsairs, DTs and reaver drops excatly at the same time I do this in real games. Then, this computer player should make expand, obtain units for free and the game should be hard to win. Also this computer should have better and more agressive micro, than original ai has.
As the result - now we have the map, designed for 3x1, where computer player start from timings, explained above, and continues to obtain units for free (so it is possible to win, but hard). And this computer has better and more agressive micro (it uses all spells, has better placement/timing of spells etc), than original ai has.
For me it is very interesting to observe, how normal players from iccup play this 3x1, because every game this cpu make some really new (which I have not seen before) and funnny tricks.
Maybe it will be interesting for you to play this 1-3 times, but remember, that this map is designed for 3x1, and computer plays "differently" only starting from 8th minute of the game (and this mostly happen only if 3 players play vs him). First 8 minutes of the game computer plays with same build order and moves.
You can download this ums map here: http://theleo-ua.livejournal.com/
If you have problems to find allies - just host this map with name like "3 vs 1 Crazy CPU LT" in "playable time" on iccup, uswest or useast (better iccup) - someone will join.
On May 01 2012 19:11 breakk wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 11:02 Release wrote:
Question: do these bots play like humans, in the sense that they have to scout/obtain information, or do they play like computer and have all the information without scouting?
They play like humans in this sense. They need to scout, since they don't have any extra information available. No cheating is allowed  Just check out some streams - they scout.
I think this is main disadvantage of these bots for now, because current versions of bots can win only D+ player. Imho it will be better to share all map (end even - what is evolving in evolution chamber) for these bots for now (but this is impossible because of BWAPI architecture, as I understand).
On May 01 2012 19:11 breakk wrote:
Just check out some streams - they scout.
My bot is scouting too, but this is only joke (to emulate a real human)
On May 02 2012 09:17 snakeeyez wrote:
The only thing that stops me from playing brood war is no good opponents, but playing online the opponents are too good. Also lag is very annoying
You can try my "bot" - maybe it will be interesting for you.
On May 02 2012 18:50 breakk wrote:Hi. Yep, I know bthai. But it's really quite hard to make it do what you want. I think I'll do a training bot with clickable user interface, where you can tell him what build orders to use and which units to focus on. That is handy only for training purposes, where you want the opponent to only do one build/play style over and over again and practice counterstrategies (I guess you'll hardly convince a human player to do something so boring for him). Such bot will adapt to situation - but only in order to be able to produce units that he is supposed to (so you won't end up playing against something that you don't want to practice). Such bot is not at all meant to be an amusing/interesting opponent. He should only be a practice opponent, that doesn't get bored
BTW: I heard, that some bot made D+ on iccup (the humans only hosted games with him). Is it true? But I wonder about next: is it pobbisle to create good bot, which will be focused only on rushes like "4 pool, 2 gateways/barracks from center etc" ? So you only should program start situations like "what to do if opponent make wall, bunker, 2 hatcheries etc". And it's interesting - what max rank on iccup this bot will take?
On May 02 2012 22:52 AleXoundOS wrote:
It depends on what is the aim of your bot. If you need something more than BO execution you can add learning mechanisms, so that it will evaluate the results of it's decisions for further usage. Yes it's hard but possible. StarCraft BroodWar is a great environment for developing AI that is capable of learning and BWAPI gives full control of the game.
What's more, you can compete bots against each other in order to refine build orders or research perfect micro tactics in different conditions and initial data like Berkeley Overmind bot did with mutalisk micro against high templars.
Is it possible to create a good bot only by neuronic networks? You just play with this bot and show him, what to do by your own example. Is it possible (even if the bot will always see all map and what evolution chamber evolving) ?
On May 03 2012 00:17 breakk wrote:Exactly. Actually, right now my own bot is learning some micro with genetic algorithms  It's been training for couple of weeks now. And as you said, it's all serious science, but it's also fun (at least for me). That's why I'm currently getting my Phd. in AI.
Some question about "science": we had a lot of "opinions" in our russian starcraft forum - but I still have no "good" answer to next: is it possible to make "deep blue" analog in BW? Some people said, that starcraft has much more situations than chess, so you cannot counter them all with current supercomputers, but another people say, that starcraft has not that huge amount of situations - you easily can research "main" situations, and just counter them like chess bots do.
What do you think about this? Is it possible to implement "chess tree" mechanic in BW?
As I understand - some people started implementing this by "checking player moves" in replays: https://github.com/SnippyHolloW/OpeningTech/
(it is open source)Last edit: 2012-05-03 04:52:04 |
| | Blizzard Entertainment: gg. KeSPA: gg. Blizzard Entertainment has left the game (c) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=230714 |  |
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| breakk Slovakia. May 09 2012 03:40. Posts 51 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 03:22 theleo_ua wrote:Some question about "science": we had a lot of "opinions" in our russian starcraft forum - but I still have no "good" answer to next: is it possible to make "deep blue" analog in BW? Some people said, that starcraft has much more situations than chess, so you cannot counter them all with current supercomputers, but another people say, that starcraft has not that huge amount of situations - you easily can research "main" situations, and just counter them like chess bots do. What do you think about this? Is it possible to implement "chess tree" mechanic in BW? As I understand - some people started implementing this by "checking player moves" in replays: https://github.com/SnippyHolloW/OpeningTech/(it is open source)
I would say, that it's possible, but we're still pretty far from it (actually, for something like this we would need to put together a team and spend some non-trivial amount of time - nowadays, most of BWAPI bots are coded by students in their free time).
That open source project you mentioned looks as a nice start (even if it's only about build orders). Anyway, unlike in chess, you still have to solve the micro for various unit and terrain combinations.
On May 03 2012 03:22 theleo_ua wrote:
But I wonder about next: is it pobbisle to create good bot, which will be focused only on rushes like "4 pool, 2 gateways/barracks from center etc" ? So you only should program start situations like "what to do if opponent make wall, bunker, 2 hatcheries etc". And it's interesting - what max rank on iccup this bot will take?
Actually, creating a bot that only does some all-in cheese tactics is pretty easy (I created one such bot over night. It does BBS rush - Two proxy Barracks in the middle before first Supply Depot + Bunker in enemy base if he's Terran. You can check this bot live on [SSCAI] website). The real problem is, that these tactics are weak in general and will lose against a decent player.
Last edit: 2012-05-09 03:47:49 |
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 SlowBullets United States. May 09 2012 04:12. Posts 731 | Profile # |
| This brings BW tournament to a whole new level! Fuck this is going to be exciting. Will definitely follow and see how this turns out. |
| | 1:1 go sc2 LAN? Oh wait... |  |
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| breakk Slovakia. May 09 2012 18:57. Posts 51 | Profile # |
On May 09 2012 04:12 SlowBullets wrote:This brings BW tournament to a whole new level! Fuck this is going to be exciting. Will definitely follow and see how this turns out.
Great, I'm glad you like it Btw, you can also help us out by donating some cash on tournament website (www.sscaitournament.com). It's for prizes, hosting, promotion, etc. |
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| AleXoundOS Russian Federation. May 10 2012 07:13. Posts 95 | Profile # |
On May 03 2012 03:22 theleo_ua wrote:
BTW: I heard, that some bot made D+ on iccup (the humans only hosted games with him). Is it true?
I don't think there are bots playing on iCCup, because, needless to say, antihack launcher detects the hack, and the majority of players won't play with the opponent without antihack. Even if try to compete bots vs humans, I think that current bots will difficultly react to human's cheeses and uncommon strategies. At the current stage bots execute many aspects of the game a lot worse than humans. (However some micro tactics can be executed at unattainable for human level, so that there is a need to limit APM or CPU time of bots in future to make it more fair.)
On May 03 2012 03:22 theleo_ua wrote:
But I wonder about next: is it pobbisle to create good bot, which will be focused only on rushes like "4 pool, 2 gateways/barracks from center etc" ? So you only should program start situations like "what to do if opponent make wall, bunker, 2 hatcheries etc". And it's interesting - what max rank on iccup this bot will take?
Yes it's possible.
On May 03 2012 03:22 theleo_ua wrote:Some question about "science": we had a lot of "opinions" in our russian starcraft forum - but I still have no "good" answer to next: is it possible to make "deep blue" analog in BW? Some people said, that starcraft has much more situations than chess, so you cannot counter them all with current supercomputers, but another people say, that starcraft has not that huge amount of situations - you easily can research "main" situations, and just counter them like chess bots do.
What do you think about this? Is it possible to implement "chess tree" mechanic in BW?
Of course there is a place for chess mechanics in StarCraft BroodWar. But where to apply them? In chess there is a clear definition of "move" and all moves can be mathematically calculated, and then given a value for each there comes a decision. StarCraft BroodWar is a lot closer to life conditions, where there is no clear understanding of a move. What consider to be a move? If to consider every possible action in game as a "move" (and every pixel of the map as a possible place for unit, except buildings) you will get an infinite choice of decisions in every frame of the game. It will require calculating the same number of opponent's moves (with all the tree of moves assuming that most of opponent's units are not visible), what becomes impossible task using chess methods.
So there is a need of some abstract layer to lower the number of actions and situations in order to use chess methods.
On May 09 2012 03:40 breakk wrote:
Anyway, unlike in chess, you still have to solve the micro for various unit and terrain combinations.
And as breakk said there is micro management, leaving chess methods for high level management.
StarCraft BroodWar needs lots of different skills to be played properly, and chess's math can not solve all required tasks in game efficiently in my opinion. I like comparing with chess when it comes to build orders that are quite close to chess openings. But I think it's useful at early stages of the game. The more elements the system has the more computing powers it will need to be solved. There are too much situations. And in some cases a clear decision does not exist, progamers often rely on their experience and feelings. There are too many variables and it's hard to give a value for all consequences of decisions. I think that at some point of complexity chess methods become too slow and other methods like metaheuristics become more profitable. It is more closer to what human sometimes use. And that's one of the reasons I love StarCraft BroodWar - it mobilizes the usage of subconsciousness and hidden abilities of brain.
May be there is a possibility that BWAPI and AI research in this sphere can help players to better understand how they actually think in the game.
There is also 24/7 StarCraft BroodWar ladder for BWAPI bots, without streams but with replays and statistics:
http://94.26.36.43/bwapi_bot_automation_central_server/bots_stats.php
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| | http://code.google.com/p/bwapi/ - An API for interacting with Starcraft: Broodwar (1.16.1) |
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| ArcTimes Peru. May 10 2012 09:34. Posts 180 | Profile # |
What? how do they play ladder? And other question, i tried to play against some of these AIs, but failed. How can i play with them. I have the las BWAPI, i have chaoslauncher, and the bot files, but i can't follow the instructions  ( |
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| breakk Slovakia. May 10 2012 18:30. Posts 51 | Profile # |
On May 10 2012 09:34 ArcTimes wrote:What? how do they play ladder? And other question, i tried to play against some of these AIs, but failed. How can i play with them. I have the las BWAPI, i have chaoslauncher, and the bot files, but i can't follow the instructions (
It's a special Ladder for bots only, and it has nothing to do with Battle.net. Anyway, tell me more about your problem with playing against a bot. What exactly do you do? Does it display some error messages? |
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| breakk Slovakia. May 22 2012 17:38. Posts 51 | Profile # |
Guys, do you think that bots should be able to notice non-detected invisible units? (like people do when they pay attention to the blur effect)
Please vote here. It will help the developers of BWAPI. |
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| quirinus Croatia. May 22 2012 18:18. Posts 1800 | Profile Blog # |
Well, I don't know what commands you can give to the bot, but if they're a bit above the basic ones making a bot that can get to C- shouldn't be hard if you know what to make them do and when. Also, is there some way to make them build buildings in specific places? Can't a map with buildings (or just a list of coordinates) be made in advance that tells them where to build - if they can't there, have an alternative place and if that fails build anywhere in the base?
As for the cloaked units, there should be some % of chance. If the cloaked unit attacks there should be 100% chance if it's a non-one-hit-kill, and about 40% if it's a one-hit-kill. If it's just walking around, if some order was issued in the proximity there should be about 10% per order? (don't know how many orders per second units/buildings get)Last edit: 2012-05-22 18:40:18 |
| | Team Fox - http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/teams/58162.html | God's punch line is killer. | |
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| ArcTimes Peru. May 23 2012 00:01. Posts 180 | Profile # |
On May 10 2012 18:30 breakk wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 09:34 ArcTimes wrote:What? how do they play ladder? And other question, i tried to play against some of these AIs, but failed. How can i play with them. I have the las BWAPI, i have chaoslauncher, and the bot files, but i can't follow the instructions (
It's a special Ladder for bots only, and it has nothing to do with Battle.net. Anyway, tell me more about your problem with playing against a bot. What exactly do you do? Does it display some error messages?
Well, i downloaded the bwapi plugin, open sc wit chaos, bwapi activated. Then i downloaded the bots and microsoft visual C+ 2010 express. Then i don't know what to do. Open the bots with visual, and follow the instruction in the "readme", but it doesn't work
Help me please
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| breakk Slovakia. May 24 2012 18:26. Posts 51 | Profile # |
On May 22 2012 18:18 quirinus wrote:
Also, is there some way to make them build buildings in specific places? Can't a map with buildings (or just a list of coordinates) be made in advance that tells them where to build - if they can't there, have an alternative place and if that fails build anywhere in the base?
Yes, you can make them build stuff at specific places. If you know what maps they will play on, it even makes sense (we had one bot that built walls in chokepoints, but could only do it on few specific maps).
Most bots however have some algorithm that finds suitable build position dynamically somewhere in their base (it searches surrounding positions, until it finds one that is valid). |
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| breakk Slovakia. May 24 2012 18:45. Posts 51 | Profile # |
On May 23 2012 00:01 ArcTimes wrote:Well, i downloaded the bwapi plugin, open sc wit chaos, bwapi activated. Then i downloaded the bots and microsoft visual C+ 2010 express. Then i don't know what to do. Open the bots with visual, and follow the instruction in the "readme", but it doesn't work
OK, let's try this:
- Download BWAPI from here. Extract the archive somewhere.
- Copy (replace) everything from "CHAOSLAUNCHER" directory to directory where you have chaoslauncher.
- Copy everything from "WINDOWS" directory to your windows directory.
- Copy everything from "STARCRAFT" directory to rour SC folder.
- Copy your bot's DLL file into "StarCraft\bwapi-data" and rename it to "ExampleAIModule.dll".
- Run Chaoslauncher and enable the BWAPI Injector (Release) plugin.
- Start SC and create the LAN game.
- Join the game from some other computer and play.
If it displays some error, let me know. By the way, where did you download the bots from? Give me link. |
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| HaFnium United Kingdom. May 24 2012 22:49. Posts 767 | Profile Blog # | |
| | BW forever! |  |
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 Natespank Canada. May 24 2012 22:55. Posts 448 | Profile # |
| watching zealots run by a line of sunken colonies for like 10 minutes, dying. Not really a spectator sport, this sort of competition |
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| ArcTimes Peru. May 24 2012 23:24. Posts 180 | Profile # |
On May 24 2012 18:45 breakk wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:01 ArcTimes wrote:Well, i downloaded the bwapi plugin, open sc wit chaos, bwapi activated. Then i downloaded the bots and microsoft visual C+ 2010 express. Then i don't know what to do. Open the bots with visual, and follow the instruction in the "readme", but it doesn't work
OK, let's try this: - Download BWAPI from here. Extract the archive somewhere. - Copy (replace) everything from "CHAOSLAUNCHER" directory to directory where you have chaoslauncher. - Copy everything from "WINDOWS" directory to your windows directory. - Copy everything from "STARCRAFT" directory to rour SC folder. - Copy your bot's DLL file into "StarCraft\bwapi-data" and rename it to "ExampleAIModule.dll". - Run Chaoslauncher and enable the BWAPI Injector (Release) plugin. - Start SC and create the LAN game. - Join the game from some other computer and play. If it displays some error, let me know. By the way, where did you download the bots from? Give me link.
aaaaaaaaaa
so i have to joein from other computer >.<
ok, thx, going tor try it
edit: i don't remember where did i download the bots. I downloaded from the same page you linked. And, there are no dll files in bot's folders.Last edit: 2012-05-24 23:49:27 |
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| snakeeyez United States. May 27 2012 10:15. Posts 866 | Profile # |
A couple things bots really need some work on to be a lot better would be better building placement. Maybe some kind of algorithm to always make walls with buildings when facing zerg by getting the width of a chokepoint and figuring what building combination can make a wall or move a few marines in on hold position to fill the gap early game.
Second the bots still do a pretty bad job at throwing away large numbers of units into superior forces or bad situations. If you rush with zealots you need to group all of them before going in not streaming them in from the rally points to a die a few at a time they need to group up. Also if opponent has lots of static D you shouldnt throw away units into it.
I think bot beating a player like flash in a best of 7 would be a big accomplishment in AI like on the level of that watson computer winning jeopardy against people I think its that hard to do maybe harder. Then once bots do that you need to lower their APM to a human level so they have to decide what are most important actions at any one time like a person |
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| breakk Slovakia. June 10 2012 07:24. Posts 51 | Profile # |
On May 27 2012 10:15 snakeeyez wrote:
A couple things bots really need some work on to be a lot better would be better building placement. Maybe some kind of algorithm to always make walls with buildings when facing zerg by getting the width of a chokepoint and figuring what building combination can make a wall or move a few marines in on hold position to fill the gap early game.
Yeah, most of the bots need to work on that. But some time ago I saw a bot that could build walls in chokepoints dynamically (on any map). That's exactly what you're saying. |
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| Rlentless Canada. June 10 2012 08:13. Posts 246 | Profile # |
| Need to confirm. Where is the download link for past bots? Not really a good C++ person.. |
| | Always 小心 d. | Hiya and Mong #1 fan | Still a Fantasy fan :P |
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| ArcTimes Peru. June 10 2012 14:03. Posts 180 | Profile # | |
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| breakk Slovakia. June 12 2012 09:27. Posts 51 | Profile # | |
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