 TheYango United States. May 05 2012 05:56. Posts 15749 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 05:50 spinesheath wrote:
I adds another multiplicative scaling element. The only reason why ranged ADs outscale everyone is precisely because there are AD, ASpd and Crit all scaling multiplicatively off each other. If you remove that and adjust the gold values, you drastically shift the power curve of ranged ADs towards the midgame (or you completely butcher their lategame while keeping their midgame the same).
I don't believe that's the case, mainly for the reason that the first crit item that any AD carry finishes is Infinity Edge, and after Infinity Edge, practically speaking the only crit item they will reliably follow up with is Phantom Dancer. On top of this, there's LW, which is a late-game DPS item that you virtually never buy pre-IE. If you keep crit as an IE-unique effect, and then adjust the DPS/gold on PD and LW, you can approximate the same power curve.
The theoretical multiplicative scaling never practically goes beyond 4 items, and the 1st item is always the same, so it's really the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th DPS items that really change, of which one (Last Whisper) is going to be bought in a majority of cases. Over the remaining items, approximating a cubic function of AD, ASpd, and Crit with a quadratic function over AD/ASpd should not be that bad with appropriate adjustments on the coefficients. |
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| GhoSt[shield] Canada. May 05 2012 05:58. Posts 1944 | Profile Blog # |
+ Show Spoiler +
On May 05 2012 05:51 StrigHT wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:33 Silidons wrote:
man i just got jew'd out of my first ever penta kill. i had quadra and the enemy shen had like 1 hit left and brand stole it "because he was about to die" (meaning brand was about to die). the few times i could have had a penta i get ninja'd on the 5th one >_<. 1k games played none yet...
mundo jungle is #1 man
GUYS, why are you all missing the point!!! Brand is JEWISH?!?! I was unaware that Rune Terra even had Judaism.
Brand was able to keep the Menorah when the Oil went low during Hannukah.
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| overt United States. May 05 2012 06:00. Posts 3972 | Profile Blog # |
| What's the point then? If you end up doing the same damage and if IE was the only crit item in the game you'd still have AD carries scaling just as hard into late game and they'd absolutely have to buy IE as first item now. Most of them already do, but champions who like to get other items first (Vayne, Corki, Ez) would basically be forced to buy IE first every game. |
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| TheYango United States. May 05 2012 06:01. Posts 15749 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 06:00 overt wrote:
What's the point then? If you end up doing the same damage and if IE was the only crit item in the game you'd still have AD carries scaling just as hard into late game and they'd absolutely have to buy IE as first item now. Most of them already do, but champions who like to get other items first (Vayne, Corki, Ez) would basically be forced to buy IE first every game.
Where do you get that idea?
None of those guys buy Zeal first, or Crit-Cloak first. Why would removing non-IE crit sources force them to suddenly buy IE if they didn't already?
The fact is that you could take a lot of the randomness of crit out of the game with minimal impact on everything else simply by tweaking some of the other numbers. So why NOT do it?Last edit: 2012-05-05 06:02:52 |
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| Sabin010 United States. May 05 2012 06:05. Posts 1037 | Profile # |
| So the best team would be something like ashe, kog, urgot, graves, and a jungle tf? |
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| overt United States. May 05 2012 06:09. Posts 3972 | Profile Blog # |
On May 05 2012 06:01 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:00 overt wrote:
What's the point then? If you end up doing the same damage and if IE was the only crit item in the game you'd still have AD carries scaling just as hard into late game and they'd absolutely have to buy IE as first item now. Most of them already do, but champions who like to get other items first (Vayne, Corki, Ez) would basically be forced to buy IE first every game.
Where do you get that idea? None of those guys buy Zeal first, or Crit-Cloak first. Why would removing non-IE crit sources force them to suddenly buy IE if they didn't already? The fact is that you could take a lot of the randomness of crit out of the game with minimal impact on everything else simply by tweaking some of the other numbers. So why NOT do it?
All three buy crit eventually. Without crit Trinity Force would also be changed. Lots of Ez and Corki players who still go Trinity will get an IE later, although they don't get PD but that's because Trinity contributes to their crit and AS. Corki and Ez will just go IE first every game with this change. They already frequently don't get Trinity anymore because of how good IE is and this change you're suggesting seems to make IE even better.
Vayne only gets BT because of how close she has to get. She might still go BT first in lieu of IE. I dunno, I don't play much Vayne.
Practically no one goes Zeal or Crit Cloak early. But every single AD with the exception of Urgot is going to buy crit and they're going to buy IE at some point in the game. Whether their first crit item is Trinity or IE or Zeal, if you remove it entirely from everything but IE you're going to end up with every single AD carry getting IE first (except maybe Vayne?).
Basically what I see is you're taking one of the best AD carry stats in the game and relegating it to one single item. Why the hell wouldn't every AD carry rush that item when they can't get crit from anywhere else? It's going to be an issue of, "I buy IE or I don't scale into late game at all." It already is close enough to that, but that's absolutely what would happen if this change occurred. You buy IE or you do zero damage late game.Last edit: 2012-05-05 06:11:34 |
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| nojitosunrise May 05 2012 06:13. Posts 2295 | Profile # | |
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| arb Noobville. May 05 2012 06:14. Posts 11077 | Profile Blog # |
On May 05 2012 06:01 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:00 overt wrote:
What's the point then? If you end up doing the same damage and if IE was the only crit item in the game you'd still have AD carries scaling just as hard into late game and they'd absolutely have to buy IE as first item now. Most of them already do, but champions who like to get other items first (Vayne, Corki, Ez) would basically be forced to buy IE first every game.
Where do you get that idea? None of those guys buy Zeal first, or Crit-Cloak first. Why would removing non-IE crit sources force them to suddenly buy IE if they didn't already? The fact is that you could take a lot of the randomness of crit out of the game with minimal impact on everything else simply by tweaking some of the other numbers. So why NOT do it?
idk is ee chaox it hink it is buying zeal into bf into pd on alot of his ad carries |
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| obesechicken13 United States. May 05 2012 06:31. Posts 4218 | Profile Blog # |
On May 05 2012 03:13 Two_DoWn wrote:
The problem is damage is really really binary.
AD carries are either useless or deadly. There is no phase where they deal decent damage. They either kill everything they look at or they dont. Its just the way defensive and offensive items scale.
I actually feel like AD's are fine mid game, though weaker than AP's who can near burst people at that time frame (no one gets MR early :/) and who get into small fights where they can spam spells and run better. In a long fight I think an AD carry with IE will deal more damage than an AP carry midgame but will get less kills.
On May 05 2012 06:05 Sabin010 wrote:
So the best team would be something like ashe, kog, urgot, graves, and a jungle tf?
Nah. You can reduce the effectiveness of an autoattacker team with randuin's omen, thornmail, warden's mail, frozen heart, and some abilities. Attack speed slows stack multiplicatively with no penalty. In addition most AD's lack cc so even if they can outdamage the enemy team their engagement and sticking power may not be as good.
Urgot and ashe are exceptions to the poor cc on AD carries rule but neither has an escape.
The lack of a support on the team means at least one person will be underfarmed and relatively useless mid-game. Bruisers scale better into midgame because their abilities and level scaling is better and their burst is more relevant so autodamage isn't as big of a deal. I know you're being sarcastic but there are many reasons all AD teams are bad.
And if your entire team is squishy then the enemy team doesn't have to worry about disruption from tanks, or bruisers that can survive an AP carry's burst, (or even that much about MR in this case). Your team can't dive either because no one can absorb tower damage.
Obviously everyone who gets anti autoattacking items should also get some HP to make use of defensive multiplicative defensive scaling.Last edit: 2012-05-05 06:37:20 |
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 FakeSteve[TPR] Valhalla. May 05 2012 06:46. Posts 17062 | Profile Blog # |
| Been playing AD Ahri, heres a question: when is the best point to finishing triforce when going boots-doran-sheen-IE? after sheen i just follow a standard ad build, wonderinv if im being dumb about that 2810g to finish the item |
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| Slayer91 Ireland. May 05 2012 06:48. Posts 8811 | Profile # |
| I'm sure our resident panel of AD Ahri experts will be happy to answer you! Last edit: 2012-05-05 06:48:10 |
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| MooMooMugi United States. May 05 2012 06:49. Posts 4461 | Profile Blog # |
AD Ahri? You sure you ain't trolling bro?!?!
Jk, I've seen it do work. Triforce on her is nice because of the extra mana and the sheen procs inbetween autoattacks, and if you're fed and can afford it go ahead. Standard AD build works on most troll builds from what I've seen and tried |
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 UniversalSnip May 05 2012 06:51. Posts 4820 | Profile Blog # |
| fakesteve would never troll |
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| petered United States. May 05 2012 06:53. Posts 1004 | Profile # |
Yo Neo/Mog/Shake/Yiruru/other better players on TL boards, is it weird getting friend requests from people you don't know who want to be able to spectate your games (e.g. me)?
Was thinking about doing so but didn't want to be a creeper. I enjoy spectating games of better players but thought it would be more fun if it is people who also comment on TL forums. |
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| FakeSteve[TPR] Valhalla. May 05 2012 06:54. Posts 17062 | Profile Blog # |
On May 05 2012 05:44 Sufficiency wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:33 Silidons wrote:
man i just got jew'd out of my first ever penta kill. i had quadra and the enemy shen had like 1 hit left and brand stole it "because he was about to die" (meaning brand was about to die). the few times i could have had a penta i get ninja'd on the 5th one >_<. 1k games played none yet...
mundo jungle is #1 man
I know someone who played 2.5k+ games and has never penta'ed. I think to penta you need to probably play a champion that has some easy penta mechanics (Karthus comes to mind) and play him a lot.
my only penta in ranked is as AD Sona haha
and dont laugh at my AD Ahri. new masteries and flat ad runes make her strong in lane, especially with a cc support. once you have sheen you have kill potential on every bottom lane, even against graves/soraka. she brings mobility thqt doesnt exist on any other AD as well. her problem isvthat she doesnt scale into lategame (IE handles it though), and you pretty much have to convert your lane burst into a kill or two to be effective. the balance between pewpewing bruisers and dashing around raping squishies is really interesting, highly suggest giving it a shot
also 550 range. also graves has significantly less than 550 range smashLast edit: 2012-05-05 07:07:23 |
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| jadoth May 05 2012 06:59. Posts 345 | Profile # |
On May 05 2012 06:01 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:00 overt wrote:
What's the point then? If you end up doing the same damage and if IE was the only crit item in the game you'd still have AD carries scaling just as hard into late game and they'd absolutely have to buy IE as first item now. Most of them already do, but champions who like to get other items first (Vayne, Corki, Ez) would basically be forced to buy IE first every game.
Where do you get that idea? None of those guys buy Zeal first, or Crit-Cloak first. Why would removing non-IE crit sources force them to suddenly buy IE if they didn't already? The fact is that you could take a lot of the randomness of crit out of the game with minimal impact on everything else simply by tweaking some of the other numbers. So why NOT do it?
i fail to see how getting rid of secondary sources of crit is going to make things feel less random. ads would have a 25% crit chance instead of ~50% late game and 25% feels a hell of a lot more random then 50% to me. |
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| turdburgler England. May 05 2012 07:06. Posts 4650 | Profile Blog # |
On May 05 2012 06:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:44 Sufficiency wrote:
On May 05 2012 05:33 Silidons wrote:
man i just got jew'd out of my first ever penta kill. i had quadra and the enemy shen had like 1 hit left and brand stole it "because he was about to die" (meaning brand was about to die). the few times i could have had a penta i get ninja'd on the 5th one >_<. 1k games played none yet...
mundo jungle is #1 man
I know someone who played 2.5k+ games and has never penta'ed. I think to penta you need to probably play a champion that has some easy penta mechanics (Karthus comes to mind) and play him a lot.
my only penta in ranked is as AD Sona haha and dont laugh at my AD Ahri. new masteries and flat ad runes make her strong in lane, especially with a cc support. once you have sheen you have kill potential on every bottom lane, even against graves/soraka. she brings mobility thqt doesnt exist on any other AD as well. her problem isvthat she doesnt scale into lategame (IE handles it though), and you pretty much have to convert your lane burst into a kill or two to be effective. the balance between pewpewing bruisers and dashing around raping squishies is really interesting, highly suggest giving it a shot
i think that trinity is > pd. so if you were gonna get a pd on ahri then finish trinity instead. since you have a zeal already in both cases you are comparing a few % crit and a few % attack speeds to phage proc, ad, hp, mana, spell power, and 50% more sheen proc dmg.
trinity force for tons of dmgLast edit: 2012-05-05 07:12:21 |
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| FakeSteve[TPR] Valhalla. May 05 2012 07:08. Posts 17062 | Profile Blog # |
| Thats what i do. im asking whether or not it makes sense to skip finishing triforce in favor of getting pd lw bt etc |
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| turdburgler England. May 05 2012 07:11. Posts 4650 | Profile Blog # |
On May 05 2012 07:08 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
Thats what i do. im asking whether or not it makes sense to skip finishing triforce in favor of getting pd lw bt etc
reread, edited. |
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| FakeSteve[TPR] Valhalla. May 05 2012 07:13. Posts 17062 | Profile Blog # |
| Ah i forgot the triforce AA proc is higher damage |
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