ClouD's World #1 - Caster/Player situation

Is it just me or is there a lot of whining going on here today? Sure mid and lower tier professional players deserve more recognition but unfortunately the world isn't fair. In my opinion the onus for changing this situation is with the medium to hardcore fans to check out random streams. Especially during those (rare) times that there are no events that are of interest to them are on. Check out those streams that aren't by top level players. They often have hidden gems. I watched snute's stream for the first time yesterday and (aside from sheth) he is now my favorite stream to watch. He explains his builds and reactions and answers fan questions in between. The amount of insight you can gain from watching a very top level pro and a non-code S level pro is negligible and they may well provide more articulate explanations.

The majority of casters I watch do a great job and most of the rest have side jobs/responsibilities that prevent them from dedicating more than 40 hours a week (which is what it seems like the OP/Cloud expects of casters).

Everything in life is most clearly explained through a Starcraft analogy.

Aterons_toss Romania. May 02 2012 00:55. Posts 1231

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I expected bs, i got no fluf, Cloud needs to make more of these

A good strategy means leaving your opponent room to make mistakes

Acritter May 02 2012 00:55. Posts 1562

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On May 02 2012 00:43 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
It's not a situation I like, or how I would want it to work, but it's also not something you can blame the casters for... The fact that a lot of casters are just downright more popular than most players means that they are pretty much automatically more valuable and thus get paid more.

I don't think it SHOULD be like this. I think in an ideal world everyone would make more money, and there would be a higher % of players that are more stand-out in terms of fanbase than the casters, but I dont see anything you could do to force this to happen in a sustainable way. It is possible that as the game matures and players build up more solid fanbases, things will gradually even out. There is definitely an issue of volatility here - casters are a constant, they will always be there, whereas sometimes you will see even someone as good as MC or Bomber drop down to code B.

Jinro providing a reasonable viewpoint. Most of this comes across as Cloud whining.

In all seriousness, if he thinks casters have it so easy, he should try casting sometime. Players have turned into casters before. It wouldn't be a first. If things don't work out for him, maybe he'll be able to admit his viewpoint was wrong. If things do work out for him, then hey, who's he to complain?

Kare Norway. May 02 2012 01:02. Posts 651

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I think Artosis is the only good caster out there. He actually has it as a 100% job and he plays alot/ has passion for the game when he is not casting. Tasteless used to be like that aswell in brood war, but I think he has lost some of his starcraft passion and is not so good anymore(still ok).

I dont like that famous people in the community just suddenly become casters, it is something that you have to work a long time on to get good at. You cant just decide to be a caster and cast for thousands of people in a huge tournament with the best players in the world. It just becomes acward and bad in my opinion.

ClouD definitely has some good points, there are way to many "casters" that suck at their job and in some ways ruin a good tournament.

FlaSh for the win!

Liquid`Jinro Sweden. May 02 2012 01:03. Posts 32587

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On May 02 2012 00:55 Acritter wrote:

Show nested quote +

That's a pretty unfair way of looking at it tho, you might as well tell him to become an investment banker or something.

tell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n Formerly FrozenArbiter

TeeTS Germany. May 02 2012 01:05. Posts 1731

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Well the point is: Most viewers don't notice it, when the caster is telling bullshit and analyzes the game completely wrong, because they don't know it better. Additionally caster "bashing" (aka. criticizing) is forbidden on TL.net livereportthreads, so you only see a complainment if a caster is totally bad at his job like Moletrap or makes a major slip like orb. But caster, who are just bad or not really good at least, just go on, doing their thing. Tournament organisators don't know the game as well and may not have the time to check the abilities of the casters they hire, so our bad caster just goes on, getting jobs and getting paid.
If they are not heavily critized, they will not change or try to improve and tournament organisation will go on and hire them. And the actual situation is, that most people don't have the ability to realize, that the casters are bad and believe in what they are told. And the guys who could do it, aren't allowed to.

Danglars United States. May 02 2012 01:06. Posts 1923

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Casters get plenty of flack already for bad analysis, and even more if they don't carry excitement in their voice. I mean, casters reading this, please be inspired to check replays and vods to get more knowledge into common situations they'll see while casting. Community already levels plenty of firepower on that front from my own experience.

For money, really, how much can a caster who isn't the god-tier of popularity even command? Day9, tasteless, and artosis can ask for quite a bit, maybe a handful behind them including wolf and wheat. Until you get your fame, this isn't a stable income stream for aspiring foreign casters aka don't quit your day job waiting for MLG to call you. Not a lot of impetus to analyze an ever-changing scene, even less considering their main job is getting you excited about what's happening on the screen and why the game matters for the players involved (in this authors opinion). It's natural and expected behavior; nice prodding from ClouD for more and better, though, regardless of tone.

MC HuK HerO Creator HWAITING || Go iS! || Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!

figq May 02 2012 01:07. Posts 9667

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What about Team owners and League owners? A player envies a caster in front of him, but behind both of them someone makes even more money with even less game effort. (if we judge everything by game effort - maybe we shouldn't)

If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]

Baio May 02 2012 01:08. Posts 112

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Why care? ClouD is stating the obvious right here. That most casters are objectively bad at their job and don't have single clue about the game is common knowledge. What ClouD does is random...dividing casters in a group of the one's he likes and one he dislikes is not objective at all. All casters are pretty much useless as even "the best" completely fail to point out mistakes in the game which a random diamond league player spots. I've never heard a caster saying something along the lines of "XXX is just playing aweful as is macro is completely off....he has way too few units at this time etc."

If you don't like casting just mute the stream. I enjoy most tournaments completely muted. What Cloud is trying to accomplish here is getting himself some attention he doesn't get by playing. What I have realized for a long time is that skill is never rewarded accordingly unless it is completely outstanding. You don't get any attention for being very good (titan/slivko), a little attention for being extremely good (nerchio) and all the attention for being the best (Stephano) but with non-skill based actions you get tons of attention for basically nothing like attention for being a girl, transgender, hell even a twelve-year-old diamond gets more attention than top grandmaster players.

If Cloud has just realized that having skill doesn't make you famous but doing "random shit" does Congratz Cpt. Obvious! The SCII scene is just like any other business in the world: subjective, unfair and hungry for hypes, flames and gossip. Deal with it.

lorestarcraft United States. May 02 2012 01:09. Posts 664

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Cloud has no idea what's going on. The casters are way more vital to the sport than players are right now. Maybe someday later players will get more money, but they need to become more consistent first.

galaxyesports.com [Galaxy] Mapmaker, author of: Cuzco, Star Breaker, Stolen Graves

Zarahtra Iceland. May 02 2012 01:10. Posts 3324

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Gotta love Cloud. one my favorite players. Also a person who does speak his mind, but isn't really a total cock about it(well this video might be on the harsher side admittedly). Anyway I think he's right, there are just times when I get so frustrated, where casters are just wrong to the extend you question if they actually play the game.

In any case, it's a bit funny, but of the current people that are casters, if cloud would switch to casting, I think he'd likely be like the 5-6th best caster in the world just straight away.

ReaperX Hong Kong. May 02 2012 01:12. Posts 1755

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On May 02 2012 01:09 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Cloud has no idea what's going on. The casters are way more vital to the sport than players are right now. Maybe someday later players will get more money, but they need to become more consistent first.

Unfortunately, that is the case... even though there are tons of players playing their hear out all day there are casters who earn much more with less work... but that is how the world has always worked

Artosis : Clide. idrA : Shut up.

DarKFoRcE Germany. May 02 2012 01:14. Posts 1125

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You guys should know that Cloud generally says things in a very blunt and exaggerated way, but in the core he does have a point in my opinion and it takes quite some courage to go out and say it in a way like that.

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MaGariShun Austria. May 02 2012 01:16. Posts 281

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I don't think anyone has a problem with casters earning good money - if they are any good. Problem is, as said by ClouD, that most of them are indeed not, but still get paid a shitload of money because they made themselves a name.

Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo Germany. May 02 2012 01:18. Posts 2861

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The fact that they're so more vital makes it just sadder that a lot of them are just lacking in some aspects.
I don't like the idea of "well caster xyz is kinda popular at the moment, because of this he is more important and improving is totally up to him, It's enough for us".

WrathBringerReturns said: No no no. Sarcasm is detected in the voice. When this forum is riddled with stupidity, you think I can tell every post apart? Fair enough it was intended sarcastically, was it obvious? Of course not.

Woizit May 02 2012 01:18. Posts 728

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I think for the situation to turn better for players, they'll have to work it out with their teams. Teams keep a fanbase and bring new fans to new players easier.

The problem is that a lot of teams do not try to grab any attention to build up their fanbases. I believe just EG and TL created more content promoting their teams compared the the rest of the entire foreign scene, and they can keep even their weaker players popular whereas other teams simply ride on their big player names which can fall off when they get into a slump.

That said, I think casters have a tough job too, most of them have to do their own promotion, organise the matches that're about to be played, keep track of the players they have to cast and so on. That's no easy task.

Last edit: 2012-05-02 01:18:53

Beaza Germany. May 02 2012 01:18. Posts 152

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So God decided to judge casters today ?

On a more serious note, even though I can totally relate with alot of stuff Cloud said many others may feel different and im sure there are also people that like the casters you just bashed. Next time show some more respect man, (concerning the comments on orb and painuser). I dont like orbs casting too but im not making a video where im imitating him as if he was mentally retarded. Thats not at all a reasonable thing for a grown up human being to do, no matter how annoyed you are by the overall caster-player situation.

Zarahtra Iceland. May 02 2012 01:18. Posts 3324

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On May 02 2012 01:16 MaGariShun wrote:

Show nested quote +

And like someone said on like page 2, they actually just don't try to improve., or in the least, they just aren't improving. I think that's probably the most vital part of all this, and probably where his frustrating originates. They just don't seem to care, they are getting work, they are able to promote themselves and the tournaments seem satisfied with that.

nemonic May 02 2012 01:19. Posts 127

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His point that casters aren't working quite as hard as players is not correct. There is a lot of competition between casters and you definitely need to work hard to establish a certain status, at least in the beginning of your career.

I think the actual problem is that oftentimes the wrong people are awarded with caster spots. People like Rob Simpson, who obviously only get picked as casters because they work blizzard, have the insight of a gold league player and yet cast at big MLG events - and I'm not saying he does a bad job in whatever he does for Blizzard, he just shouldnt cast. Generally, in positions where communication skills are important, people who are not really competent in the particular area often still come out on top.

Apart from that, Cloud shouldnt have made the mistake to name specific casters who he disrespects. I don't think that this was a smart move and he generally seems to have a very narrow-minded view on the topic.

NoGasfOu United States. May 02 2012 01:20. Posts 986

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"many don't make their opinion public because they are afraid of negative feedback"

This is exactly what I always thought.
But, I'm glad that at least the Korean scene is going in the right direction where players' skill matters

A community that loves anything that's hyped with "personality" won't be able to sustain in the long term.

NSHoSeo_Tassadar/FXOTheBest/NSHJjakji