[G]Chameleon - Advanced Keyboard Layout

((((((
Will it have it's own version?
It remembers me how we had to switch hotkeys in war3.
Thank you
Took only 5 mins to edit it. I will try.

edit : wow it's hard to play with 5 fingers instead of my usal 3. It should be a good thing, in a week or two...

Last edit: 2012-05-11 03:43:31

JaKaTaK United States. May 11 2012 05:19. Posts 1419

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On May 11 2012 00:56 nojok wrote:
AZERTY

glad you got all 5 of them fingers working :D

as for making a version for AZERTY it is far down on the priority list, I don't have enough time to. Too bad the sc2 client doesn't just read key position instead of letter... or does it?

Imagination is more important than knowlege

Yotta United States. May 11 2012 07:12. Posts 270

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On May 10 2012 00:54 Reptile-Rome wrote:
It is hard to put into words but it just feels wrong to do what you are suggesting.

If you could put your feelings into words, I think the result would include words like "pure", "official", and "standard". For many people these words have positive connotations, probably for the same reasons you feel a heavily modified setup is wrong.

Last edit: 2012-05-11 07:13:43

Kaitlin United States. May 11 2012 09:29. Posts 2201

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On May 11 2012 07:12 Yotta wrote:

Show nested quote +

I could feel for the sentiment during the time before Blizzard implemented the ability to change hotkeys in game. Before that, the only way to optimize was with programmable keyboards, and I could see that as being other than "pure", but not anymore. What's EA's motto ? If it's in the game, it's in the game. It's now part of the game, and therefore your ability to use customized hotkeys to improve your performance is part of the competitive experience.

As for the AZERTY setup, if you have a programmable keyboard or use third party software to provide that effect, the adaptation would be simple. Assuming you don't, then simply load the new hotkeys, and change keys one at a time, until they are all done.

Specifically, assuming Q needs to be changed, assign an easy to remember control group to Q. This will clear all other keybinds set to Q. Then, one by one, assign each of those functions to whatever your version of 'Q' is, I assume it's A. Go through one by one, then when done, reassign the control group you changed at the beginning of the process back to what it was. Conversion complete.

Last edit: 2012-05-11 09:30:20

JaKaTaK United States. May 11 2012 09:31. Posts 1419

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When I finished working on the new hotkey setup today, there were no unbound keys... its finally testing time. Beta soon

Imagination is more important than knowlege

IlK May 11 2012 11:19. Posts 18

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Its getting about time since im gonna have some free time starting next week so i can test a bit.

@azerty keyboard: well im gonna convert it to qwertz too, so whats the problem? anybody can do it in 30minutes and share it to the world

MilExo South Africa. May 11 2012 12:00. Posts 15

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On May 11 2012 09:31 JaKaTaK wrote:
When I finished working on the new hotkey setup today, there were no unbound keys... its finally testing time. Beta soon

Excellent timing!! With the weekend just around the corner the community should be able to give you lots of feedback.

cas2 May 11 2012 12:47. Posts 22

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nobody rests their fingers on ASDF because from there it's difficult to make coherent use of the Fkeys and since base camera sucks, nobody uses that. ur hotkey setup is basically trading Fkeys for tiny gains in amount of finger movement required for stuff that isn't used as often. plz explain to me why anyone would want to do that. additionally it follows that a player would have a huge% of this time on groups 1-5 which are 345ER. GL going to tab, Z, X, C, V, D, F, ALT, tilde, and F1. if a player has exactly 3 groups for a function (units or production usually) and isn't using 345 for those (the most logical way to use 345) then GL coordinating those groups as he is also going to be displacing away from 345 to reach all of the other keys that he's going to need rapid access to, not to mentions the contortions involved, especially when he starts using shift/ctrl in conjuction.

the reason why we use 1 2 3 4 5 and Fkeys is because they're like piano keys. they're right there, under our fingers and, incidentally, they form a row. we don't need to go looking for them and bend our fingers around to use them.

group1 is 3, group7 is d. GL microing ur hellions and getting to that key to make a banshee.

JaKaTaK United States. May 11 2012 13:46. Posts 1419

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On May 11 2012 12:47 cas2 wrote:
nobody rests their fingers on ASDF because from there it's difficult to make coherent use of the Fkeys and since base camera sucks, nobody uses that. ur hotkey setup is basically trading Fkeys for tiny gains in amount of finger movement required for stuff that isn't used as often. plz explain to me why anyone would want to do that. additionally it follows that a player would have a huge% of this time on groups 1-5 which are 345ER. GL going to tab, Z, X, C, V, D, F, ALT, tilde, and F1. if a player has exactly 3 groups for a function (units or production usually) and isn't using 345 for those (the most logical way to use 345) then GL coordinating those groups as he is also going to be displacing away from 345 to reach all of the other keys that he's going to need rapid access to, not to mentions the contortions involved, especially when he starts using shift/ctrl in conjuction.

the reason why we use 1 2 3 4 5 and Fkeys is because they're like piano keys. they're right there, under our fingers and, incidentally, they form a row. we don't need to go looking for them and bend our fingers around to use them.

group1 is 3, group7 is d. GL microing ur hellions and getting to that key to make a banshee.

I can't seem to find anything constructive you have to offer the community with this post, so we're all just going to move forward and avoid the flame fest. However, if you do have something constructive to offer, you seem to have a lot of ideas about hotkey layouts and I'd love to hear some of your ideas.

On May 11 2012 11:19 IlK wrote:
Its getting about time since im gonna have some free time starting next week so i can test a bit.

@azerty keyboard: well im gonna convert it to qwertz too, so whats the problem? anybody can do it in 30minutes and share it to the world

awesome man, I'm looking forward to your feedback :D

On May 11 2012 12:00 MilExo wrote:

Show nested quote +

Excellent timing!! With the weekend just around the corner the community should be able to give you lots of feedback.

mmm, i just gotta hit up with Foxy to polish off the media and we should be ready to release (providing Foxy has gotten the chance to start and finish the 4th and 5th mouse button verson)

Also, as a more general thing to anyone interested, consider not feeding the flames. Its tempting, and often fun, but all flames do is burn shit. I'm not a particular fan of burns.

Last edit: 2012-05-11 13:52:58

Imagination is more important than knowlege

iokke United States. May 12 2012 06:02. Posts 694

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I decided that I will wait for your new setup and then use it in teamgames till i get used to it (hopefully Ill have enough patience this time). Are you going to update the OP once the new layout (or beta) is ready or should we keep checking for new topics?

Also with regards to having more efficient setups, are you planning to make different setups for all races eventually or one size fits all? For example the adjustments you make to the layout to enable better injects may be counter-productive to Tosses and Terrans. Though even if not each player can customize it a bit to fit him best i guess

Last edit: 2012-05-12 06:04:09

Crop circles are Chuck Norris' way of telling the world that sometimes corn needs to lie the f*** down. rerereredit.. I never get it right the 1st time

Domus May 12 2012 06:40. Posts 422

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I think it is awesome that you are both working hard on a good control scheme for the community! I can't wait to try it out

JaKaTaK United States. May 12 2012 07:16. Posts 1419

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On May 12 2012 06:02 iokke wrote:
I decided that I will wait for your new setup and then use it in teamgames till i get used to it (hopefully Ill have enough patience this time). Are you going to update the OP once the new layout (or beta) is ready or should we keep checking for new topics?

Also with regards to having more efficient setups, are you planning to make different setups for all races eventually or one size fits all? For example the adjustments you make to the layout to enable better injects may be counter-productive to Tosses and Terrans. Though even if not each player can customize it a bit to fit him best i guess

With regards to switching. The don't look back method is suggested. Once you change, change. Go all in and commit to it. It makes it harder if you are playing two layouts at a time (one for team one for single in case that is what you are suggesting)

long term, I want to have a setup for each race TZPR and for each dominant hand LR and maybe even hand size SML so it could eventually be as comprehensive as:
TRS, TRM, TRL, TLS, TLM, TLL,
ZRS, ZRM, ZRL, ZLS, ZLM, ZLL,
PRS, PRM, PRL, PLS, PLM, PLL,
RRS, RRM, RRL, RLS, RLM, RLL.

so 24 layouts without mouse buttons, and then the same number, with mouse buttons included.

So maybe eventually hopefully if we think it makes sense... there will be a total of 48 layouts to choose from. But don't expect it anytime soon. For now, expect and RRM RLM with and without buttons. RLM with buttons will probably be the last completed out of these 4.

There will be a post titled TheCore.

On May 12 2012 06:40 Domus wrote:
I think it is awesome that you are both working hard on a good control scheme for the community! I can't wait to try it out

I'll actually be showcasing TheCore RLM tonight on my show :D beta testing soon to come.

EDITED for name change

Last edit: 2012-06-13 03:45:51

Imagination is more important than knowlege

Kaitlin United States. May 12 2012 07:34. Posts 2201

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What show, when's it on, how can I watch and will there be VODs somewhere ?

JaKaTaK United States. May 12 2012 07:55. Posts 1419

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On May 12 2012 07:34 Kaitlin wrote:
What show, when's it on, how can I watch and will there be VODs somewhere ?

www.twitch.tv/thejakatak

the show is to help noobs improve by focusing on the aspects of the game that do not change. 3 days a week i will be playing with lefty mouse and showcasing the macro system we use to accelerate improvement. It just so happens i'll be testing the new layout at the same time :D

Imagination is more important than knowlege

iokke United States. May 12 2012 11:24. Posts 694

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Ah you misunderstood me a tiny bit, i meant I will only play teamgames to practice new layout until I'm comfy with it. Then I will resume 1v1 while using the new layout. Anyway Im looking forward to the new setup, especially PRM Chamelion version, or RRM for now;)
Also a suggestion once u get to Toss. In ur original layout you petty much ignored warp in key (im assuming in favor of binding all gateways to a hotkey). The plus of having a dedicate warp key is that you don't have to add new warpgates to the hotkey (in case you forget to or dont have time), so it probably deserves a dedicated convenient key in the layout.

Last edit: 2012-05-12 13:39:30

Crop circles are Chuck Norris' way of telling the world that sometimes corn needs to lie the f*** down. rerereredit.. I never get it right the 1st time

JaKaTaK United States. May 12 2012 13:25. Posts 1419

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On May 12 2012 11:24 iokke wrote:
Ah you misunderstood me a tiny bit, i meant I will only play teamgames to practice new layout until I'm comfy with it. Then I will resume 1v1 while using the new layout. Anyway Im looking forward to the new setup, especially TRM [TheCore] version, or RRM for now;)
Also a suggestion once u get to Toss. In ur original layout you petty much ignored warp in key (im assuming in favor of binding all gateways to a hotkey). The plus of having a dedicate warp key is that you don't have to add new warpgates to the hotkey (in case you forget to or dont have time), so it probably deserves a dedicated convenient key in the layout.

If you're not going for tabbed production, the warpgate key is great. Right now I like to have 2 or 3 control groups to macro out of, and that works out so that gates aren't on their own control group. The issue is that it is damn near impossible to keep the high priority stuff close and have more than 3 control groups for macro. But I would be very interested if someone took chameleon and altered it to have 4 control groups for macro. I couldn't figure out an efficient way to get it done.

EDITED for name change

Last edit: 2012-06-13 03:47:20

Imagination is more important than knowlege

iokke United States. May 12 2012 13:51. Posts 694

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Understandable, I guess it's a personal taste. I'll just rebind one of 10 ctrl groups to warp in since i use it every 30 secs or so, and in late game ill probably forget to add new gates to my control group. Others may choose not to.
Just remember that Warp In is not related to control groups, its a global command. That means you can use any key that you have available and you will not limit your control groups. Although it will probably be hard to find room for that too

Last edit: 2012-05-12 13:58:50

Crop circles are Chuck Norris' way of telling the world that sometimes corn needs to lie the f*** down. rerereredit.. I never get it right the 1st time

Kaitlin United States. May 12 2012 15:58. Posts 2201

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On May 12 2012 13:51 iokke wrote:
Understandable, I guess it's a personal taste. I'll just rebind one of 10 ctrl groups to warp in since i use it every 30 secs or so, and in late game ill probably forget to add new gates to my control group. Others may choose not to.
Just remember that Warp In is not related to control groups, its a global command. That means you can use any key that you have available and you will not limit your control groups. Although it will probably be hard to find room for that too

Actually, you can use "any combination of keys". For example, let's say you have 'W' set as a control group, and Ctrl+W creates the control group, and Shift+W adds to the control group. You could also use 'W' for warpgates by setting it to Alt+W, for example, or any other unused combination of keys. I make heavy use of this technique in my layout and have eliminated all hand movement.

JaKaTaK United States. May 13 2012 01:06. Posts 1419

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On May 12 2012 15:58 Kaitlin wrote:

Show nested quote +

I think that iokke was making a reference to the fact that because of the warp gate key, protoss in sc2 is allowed 11 control groups instead of terran and zerg's 10 control groups. (the normal 10 CGs + the warp gate key) And I would be very surprised if Base J eliminated "all" hand movement. I think that is a bit of an exaggeration. "almost all" or "most" would be more accurate.

Imagination is more important than knowlege

Kaitlin United States. May 13 2012 01:44. Posts 2201

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Fingers on FGHJ and thumb between Spacebar and Right Alt. The only key used that is not adjacent to a 'home' finger position is 6, which is only used for 'Center on Selection', and I can hit that with my middle finger with only normal extension. Alternatively, 'R' is unbound if '6' was inconvenient. I wasn't trying to poo poo your layout and say mine is better. They are very different and mine changes keyboard and mouse drivers, which yours does not. Mine requires tournament approval for that reason, and yours does not. Therefore, they really aren't even comparable. But I only play on ladder, so it works for me.

I took Iokke's post to basically say you needed to find additional real estate (unused key) to bind it. My response was to point out that unlike control groups and other 'Command Card' commands, Warp Gate can be set to not only a single key, but to a combination of keys, so you don't necessarily need to find an unused key to bind it, just an unused key combination.

Last edit: 2012-05-13 01:44:45