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| nojok France. May 13 2012 02:22. Posts 1959 | Profile # |
| I'm getting accustomed to it and I think it's better than grid. |
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| JaKaTaK United States. May 13 2012 05:08. Posts 1410 | Profile Blog # |
On May 13 2012 01:44 Kaitlin wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ecfo5.jpg) Fingers on FGHJ and thumb between Spacebar and Right Alt. The only key used that is not adjacent to a 'home' finger position is 6, which is only used for 'Center on Selection', and I can hit that with my middle finger with only normal extension. Alternatively, 'R' is unbound if '6' was inconvenient. I wasn't trying to poo poo your layout and say mine is better. They are very different and mine changes keyboard and mouse drivers, which yours does not. Mine requires tournament approval for that reason, and yours does not. Therefore, they really aren't even comparable. But I only play on ladder, so it works for me. I took Iokke's post to basically say you needed to find additional real estate (unused key) to bind it. My response was to point out that unlike control groups and other 'Command Card' commands, Warp Gate can be set to not only a single key, but to a combination of keys, so you don't necessarily need to find an unused key to bind it, just an unused key combination.
It takes a minimum of 22 keys to play sc2 with 10 control groups, plus all of the camera hotkeys that you don't layer with the third modifier key, (which you exclude?) What functions are you sacrificing in this 16 key layout? |
| | Imagination is more important than knowlege |
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| JaKaTaK United States. May 13 2012 05:09. Posts 1410 | Profile Blog # |
On May 13 2012 02:22 nojok wrote:
I'm getting accustomed to it and I think it's better than grid.
good to hear man! how long did it take for you to get used to it? |
| | Imagination is more important than knowlege |
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| terranmoccasin United States. May 13 2012 05:21. Posts 74 | Profile # |
| I'm trying this out for the first time and it's a bit hard getting used to having all of my production on one hotkey. I'm a toss player, and often times I want to set different rally points for my robo and my stargate. Is there some other way to do this besides splitting up the building hotkeys? I like the idea of having them all on 'D' and using spacebar to cycle through |
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| Kaitlin United States. May 13 2012 05:33. Posts 2195 | Profile # |
On May 13 2012 05:08 JaKaTaK wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 01:44 Kaitlin wrote:Fingers on FGHJ and thumb between Spacebar and Right Alt. The only key used that is not adjacent to a 'home' finger position is 6, which is only used for 'Center on Selection', and I can hit that with my middle finger with only normal extension. Alternatively, 'R' is unbound if '6' was inconvenient. I wasn't trying to poo poo your layout and say mine is better. They are very different and mine changes keyboard and mouse drivers, which yours does not. Mine requires tournament approval for that reason, and yours does not. Therefore, they really aren't even comparable. But I only play on ladder, so it works for me. I took Iokke's post to basically say you needed to find additional real estate (unused key) to bind it. My response was to point out that unlike control groups and other 'Command Card' commands, Warp Gate can be set to not only a single key, but to a combination of keys, so you don't necessarily need to find an unused key to bind it, just an unused key combination.
It takes a minimum of 22 keys to play sc2 with 10 control groups, plus all of the camera hotkeys that you don't layer with the third modifier key, (which you exclude?) What functions are you sacrificing in this 16 key layout?
No functions sacrificed. In fact, Esc (C) is even in there. I have all 10 control groups, all 8 camera locations, idle workers, center on selection, Backspace Base Cycle, everything is included, and it works for all 3 races. I have the Spacebar acting as Shift, U acting as Ctrl, and Mouse Back button acting as Alt. There is even room for expansion, as you can see 'R' is not being used and there are various key combinations open as well. I've been thinking of doing an updated Thread, since it's been about a year since I wrote the first version. I'm not sure how you calculate 22 keys, but it might be correct. I didn't picture my mouse, since I was only trying to show what keys are used, showing the 'no hand movement' challenge lol.Last edit: 2012-05-13 05:33:54 |
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| Kaitlin United States. May 13 2012 05:35. Posts 2195 | Profile # |
On May 13 2012 05:21 terranmoccasin wrote:
I'm trying this out for the first time and it's a bit hard getting used to having all of my production on one hotkey. I'm a toss player, and often times I want to set different rally points for my robo and my stargate. Is there some other way to do this besides splitting up the building hotkeys? I like the idea of having them all on 'D' and using spacebar to cycle through
To break up rally points, activate the control group, and ctrl+click in the wire frame of the building type you want to set the rally for, then right click the ground. |
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| Radioactiveman271 United States. May 13 2012 05:37. Posts 10 | Profile # |
| This is very interesting, but does not look very easy to learn. I've always used the standard hotkey setup(remapped cycle bases to spacebar) and something as completely different would go against all of my muscle memory. How would you go about learning such a drastic change such as this one? |
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| nojok France. May 13 2012 05:51. Posts 1959 | Profile # |
On May 13 2012 05:09 JaKaTaK wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 02:22 nojok wrote:
I'm getting accustomed to it and I think it's better than grid.
good to hear man! how long did it take for you to get used to it?
Around 25 games, but not all things are ok, got 8 losses during 10 first games on ladder ( only 2 games vs easy cpu before ). Besides I just did a full SC2 day today and I think sleeping help a lot to memorise. I better memorise the keys I'm spamming more, like prod & CCs. Also I'm back to SC2 for less than a month & I'm only plat (was gold one week ago) so I jumped on your help as I felt neither basic SC2 hotkeys neither grid was really great so I don't have to relearn so many things.
What I really like is doing the cycles with spacebar. I'm not used to have more than 3 or 4 control groups so I can't say it's really better but what really hold me from more control groups was the distance from 6 7 8 etc so I think it will only increase my available control groups. The macro at least is easier and it's what I'm focusing on, army control is not so much worst than before, but I focus on mechanics at the moment.
Again I switched to your custom keys at top plat and I'm only back to top plat ( took 2 days). I'm also following the from bronze to master guide at the same time, so I'm in tryhard mode at the moment. Unfortunately I'll have to do massive homework very soon ( I don't know how to call it in English, the end of studies work you have to give to get your diploma).
Thank you for the help, it helps those too lazy to make their own custom keys |
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| Acritter May 13 2012 05:59. Posts 1562 | Profile # |
| I honestly think the biggest problem with this IS relearning. Look at the professionals: even now, they will still hotkey their Nexus to 0. The only harder thing than training is untraining. So although I thank your kind efforts, I don't think this is going to be revolutionary or even yield very significant results. The most important thing is learning how to use your hotkey setup, not how efficient the hotkey setup is (for support of this statement, go look up why it is that we use the notoriously inefficient QWERTY keyboard over the DVORAK keyboard). |
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| n00bd United States. May 13 2012 06:55. Posts 2 | Profile # |
Jakatak!
Where's this new hotkey beta?! *twiddles thumbs*  |
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| Kazahk United States. May 13 2012 07:23. Posts 214 | Profile # |
| I have read your entire post and the reasoning behind this setup is genius! I'm going to play around with it and see if I can get used to it... |
| | Avis de Hermes est nomen meum manducans pennas meas me faciant mansuescere corda. |
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| faintrigor May 13 2012 08:23. Posts 2 | Profile # |
Hey. Good work. I've been practicing this hotkey setup, but what annoys me is how the hotkey for "stop" is "2". Often times, I'm using "1" to go back to my main base, but sometimes, I accidently hit "2", stopping whatever units I am controlling. Can you fix this? I'm sure there are other people like me who run into this same problem. I'm playing Protoss, and I think it would be better to have it set up so that you can now hotkey a location using "2" and have "Y" as "stop". This way you can use 3 hotkey locations more easily, using Tab, 1, and 2.
What do you think? Is there a particular reason you use "2" for "stop"?Last edit: 2012-05-13 09:28:08 |
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| JaKaTaK United States. May 13 2012 08:31. Posts 1410 | Profile Blog # |
On May 13 2012 05:59 Acritter wrote:
I honestly think the biggest problem with this IS relearning. Look at the professionals: even now, they will still hotkey their Nexus to 0. The only harder thing than training is untraining. So although I thank your kind efforts, I don't think this is going to be revolutionary or even yield very significant results. The most important thing is learning how to use your hotkey setup, not how efficient the hotkey setup is (for support of this statement, go look up why it is that we use the notoriously inefficient QWERTY keyboard over the DVORAK keyboard).
The reason why QWERTY was used was because it prevented typewriter jams. We shouldn't be using it now, the reason why we are still producing QWERTY keyboards is because Americans (and most people) are stubborn and lazy. Its the same reason americans call football soccer, why we use the English system instead of the metric system, and why the people of the world still use a ridiculous system to measure time.
Human beings are apt to follow the path of least resistance and fear change. This is the root of the issue, not because what isn't broken shouldn't be fixed.
P.S. This keyboard layout is much more efficient than QWERTY DVORAK or Colemak. Check it out http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization |
| | Imagination is more important than knowlege |
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| JaKaTaK United States. May 13 2012 08:58. Posts 1410 | Profile Blog # |
On May 13 2012 05:33 Kaitlin wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 05:08 JaKaTaK wrote:
On May 13 2012 01:44 Kaitlin wrote:Fingers on FGHJ and thumb between Spacebar and Right Alt. The only key used that is not adjacent to a 'home' finger position is 6, which is only used for 'Center on Selection', and I can hit that with my middle finger with only normal extension. Alternatively, 'R' is unbound if '6' was inconvenient. I wasn't trying to poo poo your layout and say mine is better. They are very different and mine changes keyboard and mouse drivers, which yours does not. Mine requires tournament approval for that reason, and yours does not. Therefore, they really aren't even comparable. But I only play on ladder, so it works for me. I took Iokke's post to basically say you needed to find additional real estate (unused key) to bind it. My response was to point out that unlike control groups and other 'Command Card' commands, Warp Gate can be set to not only a single key, but to a combination of keys, so you don't necessarily need to find an unused key to bind it, just an unused key combination.
It takes a minimum of 22 keys to play sc2 with 10 control groups, plus all of the camera hotkeys that you don't layer with the third modifier key, (which you exclude?) What functions are you sacrificing in this 16 key layout?
No functions sacrificed. In fact, Esc (C) is even in there. I have all 10 control groups, all 8 camera locations, idle workers, center on selection, Backspace Base Cycle, everything is included, and it works for all 3 races. I have the Spacebar acting as Shift, U acting as Ctrl, and Mouse Back button acting as Alt. There is even room for expansion, as you can see 'R' is not being used and there are various key combinations open as well. I've been thinking of doing an updated Thread, since it's been about a year since I wrote the first version. I'm not sure how you calculate 22 keys, but it might be correct. I didn't picture my mouse, since I was only trying to show what keys are used, showing the 'no hand movement' challenge lol.
Where are your control groups and camera hotkeys, because 10+8>16. And where are your unit/building abilities? because that accounts for 9 more keys. 10+8+9+next subgroup, center on current selection, esc, and idle worker makes 31 keys. if you layer the screen hotkeys (which i assume you do) than that's 31-8=23 (i wasn't counting esc before)
On May 13 2012 07:23 Kazahk wrote:
I have read your entire post and the reasoning behind this setup is genius! I'm going to play around with it and see if I can get used to it...
Thanks so much man, very much appreciated.
On May 13 2012 06:55 n00bd wrote:Jakatak! Where's this new hotkey beta?! *twiddles thumbs*
Hopefully in a couple of days, there is a really awesome dude who wrote a program to take data out of replays that analyzes commands, so we're working that stuff out first.
On May 13 2012 05:51 nojok wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 05:09 JaKaTaK wrote:
On May 13 2012 02:22 nojok wrote:
I'm getting accustomed to it and I think it's better than grid.
good to hear man! how long did it take for you to get used to it?
Around 25 games, but not all things are ok, got 8 losses during 10 first games on ladder ( only 2 games vs easy cpu before ). Besides I just did a full SC2 day today and I think sleeping help a lot to memorise. I better memorise the keys I'm spamming more, like prod & CCs. Also I'm back to SC2 for less than a month & I'm only plat (was gold one week ago) so I jumped on your help as I felt neither basic SC2 hotkeys neither grid was really great so I don't have to relearn so many things. What I really like is doing the cycles with spacebar. I'm not used to have more than 3 or 4 control groups so I can't say it's really better but what really hold me from more control groups was the distance from 6 7 8 etc so I think it will only increase my available control groups. The macro at least is easier and it's what I'm focusing on, army control is not so much worst than before, but I focus on mechanics at the moment. Again I switched to your custom keys at top plat and I'm only back to top plat ( took 2 days). I'm also following the from bronze to master guide at the same time, so I'm in tryhard mode at the moment. Unfortunately I'll have to do massive homework very soon ( I don't know how to call it in English, the end of studies work you have to give to get your diploma). Thank you for the help, it helps those too lazy to make their own custom keys
Sweet man, 25 games is hella fast. Well done. I would highly suggest working on your macro before you even get into strategy stuff. Its a super fast way to improve.
Last edit: 2012-05-13 09:43:36 |
| | Imagination is more important than knowlege |
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| Kaitlin United States. May 13 2012 09:18. Posts 2195 | Profile # |
On May 13 2012 08:58 JaKaTaK wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 05:33 Kaitlin wrote:
On May 13 2012 05:08 JaKaTaK wrote:
On May 13 2012 01:44 Kaitlin wrote:Fingers on FGHJ and thumb between Spacebar and Right Alt. The only key used that is not adjacent to a 'home' finger position is 6, which is only used for 'Center on Selection', and I can hit that with my middle finger with only normal extension. Alternatively, 'R' is unbound if '6' was inconvenient. I wasn't trying to poo poo your layout and say mine is better. They are very different and mine changes keyboard and mouse drivers, which yours does not. Mine requires tournament approval for that reason, and yours does not. Therefore, they really aren't even comparable. But I only play on ladder, so it works for me. I took Iokke's post to basically say you needed to find additional real estate (unused key) to bind it. My response was to point out that unlike control groups and other 'Command Card' commands, Warp Gate can be set to not only a single key, but to a combination of keys, so you don't necessarily need to find an unused key to bind it, just an unused key combination.
It takes a minimum of 22 keys to play sc2 with 10 control groups, plus all of the camera hotkeys that you don't layer with the third modifier key, (which you exclude?) What functions are you sacrificing in this 16 key layout?
No functions sacrificed. In fact, Esc (C) is even in there. I have all 10 control groups, all 8 camera locations, idle workers, center on selection, Backspace Base Cycle, everything is included, and it works for all 3 races. I have the Spacebar acting as Shift, U acting as Ctrl, and Mouse Back button acting as Alt. There is even room for expansion, as you can see 'R' is not being used and there are various key combinations open as well. I've been thinking of doing an updated Thread, since it's been about a year since I wrote the first version. I'm not sure how you calculate 22 keys, but it might be correct. I didn't picture my mouse, since I was only trying to show what keys are used, showing the 'no hand movement' challenge lol.
Where are your control groups and camera hotkeys, because 10+8>16. And where are your unit/building abilities? because that accounts for 9 more keys. 10+8+9+next subgroup, center on current selection, esc, and idle worker makes 31 keys. if you layer the screen hotkeys (which i assume you do) than that's 31-8=23 (i wasn't counting esc before)
Keeping in mind that Spacebar is Shift, U is Control, and MouseBack button is Alt, the gist of my layout is as follows:
Control Groups:
T
Y
H
Alt+H
R Alt (next to spacebar)
Alt + R Alt
Mousewheel Scroll Fwd
Mousewheel Scroll Back
Fwd Mouse Button
Alt+C - this one I just switched from Alt+Mouse Scroll Back - I'm testing out if I like it better - I just realized I could "layer" ESC
Camera Location Recalls (Add Shift to Save)
Alt+J
Alt+G
Alt+I
Alt+K
Alt+Y
Alt+T
Alt+B
Alt+F
Others
6 - Center on Selection
C - Escape
Alt+Mousewheel Scroll Back - Idle Worker
U - Tab
M - Left Mouse Click (the Mousewheel Scroll Trick)
Spacebar + U - Base Cam Cycle (Backspace)
Alt - Drag Scroll
F - Attack
G - Stop
B - Hold Position
D - Patrol
Unit Spells and Building Production are:
F,G,B,D - only used as Building Production because they are Attack, Stop, Hold, and Patrol for units
J,I,N,V,K - used for both Unit Abilities and Building Production
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| JaKaTaK United States. May 13 2012 12:15. Posts 1410 | Profile Blog # |
You layered your control groups!?!??! Very interesting, but that's a shit ton of extra buttons pressed. Selecting a control group is the most executed command in the game. I'd much rather reach a small bit and not have to press 2 buttons... maybe.....
Also, that's a shit ton of extra mouse buttons. Very much not my style. Do you do the Tap? What does your SQ look like with this layout?Last edit: 2012-05-13 12:16:16 |
| | Imagination is more important than knowlege |
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| Akinokaze Australia. May 13 2012 13:48. Posts 278 | Profile # |
On May 13 2012 08:23 faintrigor wrote:
Hey. Good work. I've been practicing this hotkey setup, but what annoys me is how the hotkey for "stop" is "2". Often times, I'm using "1" to go back to my main base, but sometimes, I accidently hit "2", stopping whatever units I am controlling. Can you fix this? I'm sure there are other people like me who run into this same problem. I'm playing Protoss, and I think it would be better to have it set up so that you can now hotkey a location using "2" and have "Y" as "stop". This way you can use 3 hotkey locations more easily, using Tab, 1, and 2.
What do you think? Is there a particular reason you use "2" for "stop"?
There's actually very few situations where using the stop order would be better than hold position. Stop overrides the units' current command and basically resets it to an idle state, meaning that it'll still chase an enemy if it comes into aggro range if left alone. Hold on the other hand will cause units to stop moving completely but still attack anything that comes in range, hence the reason you use hold position on Zealots to block your ramp instead of stop.
TL;DR Use Z for Hold and reassign 2 as you see fit. Personally, I switched it with the B control group cause I found it a bit out of the way. |
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| cosimorondo United States. May 14 2012 02:42. Posts 70 | Profile # |
| Can you elaborate further on your next generation hotkey setup you are working on, when it will be ready? (2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years?) |
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| kingneckbeard United States. May 14 2012 03:41. Posts 3 | Profile # |
On May 14 2012 02:42 cosimorondo wrote:
Can you elaborate further on your next generation hotkey setup you are working on, when it will be ready? (2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years?)
Answer is a few posts above you.
On May 13 2012 08:58 JaKaTaK wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 06:55 n00bd wrote:Jakatak! Where's this new hotkey beta?! *twiddles thumbs*
Hopefully in a couple of days, there is a really awesome dude who wrote a program to take data out of replays that analyzes commands, so we're working that stuff out first.
Last edit: 2012-05-14 03:42:04 |
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| JaKaTaK United States. May 14 2012 04:34. Posts 1410 | Profile Blog # |
| Okay, running into an issue with the data that I could really use help for. I need to know every single situation where it is necessary to use stop as opposed to using hold position. Please read all below this post so that there are no repeats. Thanks Last edit: 2012-05-14 04:49:08 |
| | Imagination is more important than knowlege |
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